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Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

209 points by molecule 9y ago

gabept 9y ago
The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science: https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalance-theory-of-depression-still-promoted-but-still-unfounded/ https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalanc...
- make3 9y ago
  Meta studies still show that antidepressants help more than the placebo https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847
  - ada1981 9y ago
    Hmm... I question a meta study that says it has finally solved the issue and put it to rest, when there are plenty of other studies saying the exact opposite. Here's one: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-016-1173-2 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... "SSRIs might have statistically significant effects on depressive symptoms, but all trials were at high risk of bias and the clinical significance seems questionable. SSRIs significantly increase the risk of both serious and non-serious adverse events. The potential small beneficial effects seem to be outweighed by harmful effects."
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      All the major meta-analyses come to roughly the same conclusion, which is that anti-depressants have modest positive effects. The paper you linked to finds exactly this, but argues that the effect size they found is insignificant because of the high risk of bias. Other studies have gone to extraordinary lengths to control for potential biases and come up with a very similar effect size. Reasoning about the data is quite challenging, because we're talking about relatively small shifts in a relatively broad statistical distribution. "Number needed to treat" is a useful epidemiological concept in this case. A perfect drug that cures every single patient has an NNT of one - for each patient you treat, one patient is successfully treated. When you translate the results of SSRI meta-analyses, you get an NNT of about seven - for every seven patients who take SSRIs, one more patient will recover than if those patients were given a placebo. It's hard to know what to do with that information. Is it worth prescribing antidepressants to 1,000,000 people to treat 142,000 of them? On a pure cost-benefit analysis, the answer is a resounding yes. Antidepressants are relatively cheap and safe. Are you willing to take a pill every day to get a one-in-seven chance of an effective treatment? Maybe. If you're in the throes of a deep depression, you might be willing to give anything a try. If you're just feeling a bit blue, maybe not. By the same token, if you're taking antidepressants and you don't think that they're helping, you're probably right.
      - darkerside 9y ago
        As a layman, I find it surprising that SSRIs were clinically approved for treatment based on a 1 in 7 chance of demonstrating positive effects. Are other medications anywhere near as ineffective? Whether antibiotics, Tylenol, or Viagra, I can't imagine any of those being effective in less than, say, 5 out of 7 cases.
        jdietrich 9y ago
        >Are other medications anywhere near as ineffective? Yes. Reviews suggest that statins have an NNT of between 50 and 200 depending on the patient's underlying risk for cardiovascular disease. Coronary stents are probably useless. Reviews of antibiotics, antivirals and corticosteroids show a wide range of NNTs and often show no positive effect. The drug approval system has a relatively high bar for safety, but a relatively low bar for efficacy. A drug manufacturer only has to prove that their drug is effective for one particular cohort of patients with a particular disease, but doctors are then free to prescribe the drug to any patient with any disease. Many surgical interventions are never subject to a randomised controlled trial. http://www.thennt.com/home-nnt/ http://www.thennt.com/home-nnt/
        darkerside 9y ago
        Good point. I think stents, and to some extent, statins, are starting to be exposed as often misused tools. Yet, for some reason, it feels politically incorrect to ask the same questions if SSRIs.
  - fogzen 9y ago
    And multiple studies show them no more effective than exercise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/ The bigger problem is “depression” is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker.
    - phkahler 9y ago
      >> The bigger problem is “depression” is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker. That's something I like to point out using SSRIs as an example. The claim is that they increase levels of serotonin and that the cause of the depression is reduced serotonin. The thing is, nobody actually checks your serotonin levels and says "oh that's low take this." Then there's the problem of why ones serotonin is low when it wasn't always that way. There are probably many causes of depression and quite possibly some that don't lower serotonin.
      - empath75 9y ago
        If mdma makes you friendlier, does that mean that people who are shy are suffering from friendliness deficit disorder and can I get a prescription for it.
    - friedman23 9y ago
      >no more effective than exercise You say this as if it were a bad thing but if SSRIs are as effective as exercise wouldn't that mean that they are very effective? If you were to tell me a fat burning pill were no more effective than exercise I would start taking it.
  - gabept 9y ago
    Even if that was true, it doesn't invalidate the fact there is no scientific reasoning behind the theory of chemical imbalance.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      We don't really know how antidepressants work. We don't know how a lot of drugs work. Nobody knows why acetaminophen (paracetamol) cures your headache. Knowing how a drug works is useful but not essential; modern medicine relies on hundreds of drugs with unknown mechanisms of action.
- fogzen 9y ago
  SSRI’s are no more effective than placebo or exercise in multiple studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/# https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/#
  - cassowary37 9y ago
    but when you look across 522 studies with more than 100k participants, evidence of efficacy is indisputable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251
    - NPMaxwell 9y ago
      The Cipriani study is a nice meta-analysis: "The random-effects summary SMD for all antidepressants was 0·30" This site explains SMD: http://handbook-5-1.cochrane.org/chapter_9/9_2_3_2_the_standardized_mean_difference.htm http://handbook-5-1.cochrane.org/chapter_9/9_2_3_2_the_stand.... This site shows what 0.3 looks like (actually shows 0.2 and 0.5): http://rpsychologist.com/short-r-script-to-plot-effect-sizes-cohens-d-and-shade-overlapping-area http://rpsychologist.com/short-r-script-to-plot-effect-sizes.... Typically, when people are summarizing this line of research saying that there is no effect, they are talking about these kinds of effect sizes which look like they round to pretty much no effect. I think using SMD for reporting by itself is unfortunate: my understanding is that the drugs have large effects for a minority of patients -- rather than that they shift everyone's emotional experience over a little bit.
      - Nomentatus 9y ago
        But note that there's no attempt to control for the (extremely strong) anti-histamine effects of these drugs (particularly elavil.) You need to test them against other anti-histamines which can also improve apparent health, a lot.
        NPMaxwell 9y ago
        Fascinating idea!
- DanBC 9y ago
  Luckily most doctors don't push this theory, and you don't need it for SSRIs to be effective.
- exist 9y ago
  Since there's a lot of quoting of studies on this topic, I hope that everyone reads this very informative (and long) blog post by a psychiatrist on SSRIs and their effectiveness: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-yo...
- limeblack 9y ago
  Yes this popular "imbalance theory" holds true for all of mental health from bipolar to depression.
Regardsyjc 9y ago
What's worse is that the longer you take certain psychiatric drugs, the greater the long-term damage it can possibly cause to almost disability. It's being between a rock and a hard place. I've taken Abilify, Wellbutrin, Seroquel, and a number of other drugs. The biggest problem when you enter the psychiatric system is you go through pill roulette. You take a drug, try it, see what works, and keep trying till you find what works. Even worse is that I entered the system in high school which is a tumultuous developmental period. One sad personal story is that a psychiatrist started me on a developmental drug. A drug that was approved for other problems but was "in development" for other uses. I tried it and it was worse than Seroquel. Seroquel, if I missed a dose, I couldn't sleep. For this new drug, if I missed a dose, I had a panic attack and if I took it, I would fall asleep. So if I was out too long, let's say traveling, I had to choose between a panic attack or falling asleep. When I confronted my psychiatrist about this problem, instead of taking me off the drug, he prescribed me medication for panic attacks.
- dbasedweeb 9y ago
  Seroquel is part of a family of drugs (antipsychotics) which have some of the worst long term adverse effects of all psychiatric drugs. Everything from tardive dyskenisia to enlargement of the ventricles of the brain are routinely observed over decades of use, and that’s not even mentioning adverse effects which appear almost immediately. In general though, these drugs have little or nothing to do with antidepressants, SSRI’s or anything most poeple will ever take. Of course the adverse effects of psyshcosis and untreated psychotic illness are much worse, including homelessness and death. So while these drugs are undeniably difficult to live with, people who have been prescribed the family including Seroquel generally really need them to function. All of which is to say that the struggles of people on neuroleptic therapy are generally very different from what’s being discussed in the article here.
  - ada1981 9y ago
    An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient. The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete. It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection. I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I used to be terrified of them and tried to avoid them at all costs. Now, it's very much an initiation into whatever the next level of my life demands of me. I've learned to make symptoms bigger vs supressing them and in doing so, I recover vital parts of myself. Without this orientation, I would never have survived so called schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal depression, psychosis.
tempagain567i 9y ago
The use of these anti-depressants is extremely irresponsible. Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. This will all be looked back upon as very stupid indeed.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  > Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. Which leads to another issue that worries me: this kind of thing will end up with a backlash that likely screws over those who really do need the medication.
- thatsamonad 9y ago
  I take Wellbutrin and Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) every single day for PTSD and I wouldn’t really be able to function without them. I really wouldn’t call myself or the psychiatrist who prescribed them irresponsible. I’d say it’s equally irresponsible to make a blanket statement about something that does actually help people in certain circumstances. That being said, there are a number of GPs out there who prescribe things without fully understanding the consequences. I’ve always had a GP refer me to a psychiatrist for any mental health issues, however.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    I think the "irresponsibility" was aimed at the medical field, not at the patients. At least that was how I decided to read it. EDIT: Also, I think that even for the patients where the cause of the depression is not "chemical" in origin, that does not reduce the severity of the illness in the slightest. It just means that the causes may lie elsewhere (for example externally). I have been depressed as an indirect result of the troubles I got myself into due to undiagnosed ADD. In my case, yes, I needed medication to treat my condition, as well as therapy. But I did not need antidepressants, I needed medication for ADHD (and I just checked: lisdexamfetamine is currently not considered an effective anti-depressant[0]). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression
    - 9y ago
CocaKoala 9y ago
My heart and sympathy goes out to anybody who's on antidepressants and is trying to get off. From what I've seen and heard, it is just an incredibly painful and unpleasant experience, compounded by the fact that you need to be constantly negotiating with your insurance to cover the changing prescriptions as your dosage lowers. The withdrawal symptoms can be incredibly oppressive and disruptive. I wish there was more research into this, because I think it could help a lot of people.
- rincebrain 9y ago
  It varies wildly by person, even moreso possibly than antidepressant efficacy. I've been...fortunate, if you can call it that, that while I've taken a great many antidepressants and other psychiatric medications, the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache. I've had friends and family members who have had much worse, and I've had to carefully consider it each and every time, because we lack any kind of monitoring or ways of informing us how bad it might be.
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    > the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache I wonder if that's worse than a newborn.
    - wolco 9y ago
      Much worse, something that can't be compared. Anyone would prefer a newborn which is an external person that you provide care and watch grow. Sure it will keep you up but it also provides emotions to help fuel you past those weak moments. When you are internally off where you can't sleep the affect is different.
      - Fnoord 9y ago
        I had a severe psychosis in my life which took approx 2 months to recover from. In the beginning, I could not sleep and felt like I was fully awake when I slept. I couldn't sleep either, though I wanted to so badly, and my emotions were virtually non-existent (the lack of self-pity was fun though). It occurred a while after I was off SSRIs (Citalopram) but not right after. Newborn creates hormones, sure, but needs constant attention and requires high maintenance. There's no voluntary break. Ours needs to eat every 3 hrs. Can set my clock to it, and can't sleep right after feeding (she's gotta sleep first, or go through intestine pain). I know it isn't the end of the world, and given the psychosis I been through worse, but this is flat out rough [for me]. I wish I'd get positive emotions during weak moments. I mean, if I'd have that, they wouldn't be weak moments. After one hour of crying and trying to solve in every way I can think of I become desperate and feel lost. Its those moments I need to control myself and realise it isn't about me; its about her, our newborn. She's the one who's suffering, and doesn't know better. I wonder if it helps to cry with her.
fredch 9y ago
"Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". Having been on the Zoloft,I can say is got a black box warning for a reason and should only be taken if you're seriously in danger of self harm. Shrinks like it because it keeps people coming back. People like it because they're not willing to confront their real problems and want something to numb themselves out. Just say "No!".
- deleted 9y ago
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- leetcrew 9y ago
  > "Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". sure, but you can make the same point about any drugs that people develop physical dependencies on. aside from alcohol and benzodiazepines, you will survive. antidepressant withdrawal varies a lot from person to person though. the brain zaps can definitely be severe enough that it becomes unsafe to drive a car, for instance. > Just say "No!". this I can certainly agree with, for all but the most severe cases. it's almost never worth the common side effects, let alone the rare ones.
- stordoff 9y ago
  As someone currently on a somewhat high dose of sertraline (100mg b.d.), "numb themselves out" feels like an odd descriptor to use. That seems more like a benzodiazapine-class drug, and certainly doesn't match my experiences (it makes me more prone to insomnia, which I would not associate with a numbing agent) and wouldn't be otherwise be enjoyable/desirable but for the fact that it treats real problems (for me, OCD and anxiety disorder). > Just say "No!" They are probably over-prescribed, but a blanket "No!" ignores the cases where they do work, and provide a significant increase in quality of life.
  - markroseman 9y ago
    Some people do get what they'd describe as emotional numbing. Think of it as a decreased range of emotion. Sertraline has a relatively higher incidence of this than other SxRI's
aviv 9y ago
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. It's all about disease and symptom management.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  > Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. I know enough people in the field of modern medicine to know that that is hyperbole. At least in the European countries that I have lived in. EDIT: I am sorry to hear from the responses to this that this may not be quite so hyperbolic in the US. I hope that trend will be reversed somehow.
  - maym86 9y ago
    Having lived in US and UK there is a big difference. I have experienced US doctors tring to upsell me on treatments for a superficial leg injury that UK doctors who have seen the same thing have not and said just leave it unless it causes pain. Similar experience with dental care in US.
    - deleted 9y ago
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  - themgt 9y ago
    Before you downvote op for an admittedly over-broad opinion you truly need to experience the USA model of overprescription, drug ads on billboards and all over TV shows targeted by demographic, all sorts of IP shenanigans to extend IP/re-patent/pointlessly reformulate/roadblock generics/cherry-pick studies for new drugs that have no real benefit but a higher price. European medicine is indeed worlds different, and the European population is far less sick, overmedicated and suffering from iatrogenesis.
    - lbotos 9y ago
      To put it in perspective, I live in the US and I have an ad for Xeljans stuck in my head. With the tagline "If methathrexate didn't work for you, maybe Xeljans is right." It's that insane right now.
intralizee 9y ago
I've seen enough people in my life become addicted to antidepressants because of a traumatizing event in their life for me to have a dark outlook on it. Instead of therapy or taking real course of action to resolve the trauma/inner problem, a doctor will just label a person suffering depression. The greatest use of an umbrella-word "Depression" to get people on prescription medication and typically the problem never goes away as the problem is now just a word associated to illness one must have. A pseudo science practice at best and impossible for a trusting person to escape it. My personal opinion is that there are few people actually on the drug that are suffering "depression" without a rational life event cause.
- yodsanklai 9y ago
  Antidepressants have drawbacks, but what matters is that the benefits outweigh the cost. That is something that doctors discuss with their patients when considering such a treatment.
  - etiam 9y ago
    whether the benefits outweigh the cost, and that is something doctors should discuss objectively with their patients when considering such a treatment. These substances are yet another instance in the history of psychopharmacology where the touted benefits have been exaggerated and the harmful side effects denied. They have their place, but in the bodies of a sizable fraction of the current patients is not it.
- make3 9y ago
  There is no doubt that antidepressant therapy needs to be combined with psychotherapy, sports, meditation and just reducing the unhealthy parts of your life. The cost of taking antidepressants is really low however. Most of the time, they have almost no side effects, and are proven to help https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 Where I live, they are pretty cheap. I find that there is undue bias against antidepressants. If you need them, take them! They help.
  - 9y ago
dbt00 9y ago
I was up to 10mg/daily of Lexapro for two years. When my doctor and I agreed it was time to stop taking it, his advice was to go down to 5mg for a week, then stop. When I tried stopping after the 5mg dose I had constant vertigo symptoms and incredible difficulty sleeping. What I ended up doing was cutting the pills in half for a few weeks, then quarters, then removing one day a week from the schedule until I was down 2.5mg/wk. Finally I was able to stop, and only was mildly affected for 3 weeks after that. That stuff does weird things to your brain. On the flip side, I couldn't have gotten through some really rough times without it.
- thearn4 9y ago
  I had the same issues coming off of Lexapro. Weird brain shocks. Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has been better for me all around, but I worry about what it will be like coming down off of it too. The good news is that I'm overall in a good place and feel like I probably don't need it anymore.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    Glad you are in a better place than before, hope the process will go well! I wonder if there is a form of research that could done by following patients who are receiving this treatment, and track how they wean themselves off of it.
  - dsnuh 9y ago
    Same thing happened to me going off of Lexapro. I called it "the zaps".
    - toastermoster 9y ago
      That's exactly how I felt getting off of Effexor. I stopped taking them completely one day and after trying to push past the zaps for two weeks I got back on them. I had to get of them gradually by splitting the pills open and splitting up the little balls instead.
      - 9y ago
benevol 9y ago
I hope that this doesn't come over as sarcastic, but the pharmaceutical industry is a business, and they will always operate like one: A business is about making the most money possible: Maximizing revenue is about minimizing the main costs which are generated by the activities of: (a) acquiring the customer (through: advertising and marketing) and, (b) retaining the customer (in this case: through dependency). There are alternatives to anti-depressants. Some people quit depression for good with a well researched and planned LSD trip combined with long-term daily mindful meditation. No, I'm not saying everybody should take LSD.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  You are suggesting that depressed people may want to take LSD in lieu of SSRIs, which is horrendous advice that can, for example, trigger panic attacks in those with comorbid anxiety. Please don't.
  - Karrot_Kream 9y ago
    Cannot agree enough. Thanks.
  - benevol 9y ago
    You are saying that. Please don't.
  - fogzen 9y ago
    What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don’t fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis. If it’s irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it’s irresponsible to prescribe SSRI’s as well
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      > What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Except that's not how it works. How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved. LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure what drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer it recreationally without the aid of a professional. SSRIs, in contrast, are clinically tested, legally acquired, and administered under the guidance of a professional. > Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Yes, but these side effects are widely documented. There are more common side effects, btw. These are the extreme ones you mentioned, and also the most rare ones. Many side effects are temporary. And if you are suicidal, it is unlikely you get SSRIs prescribed. Unless you lie about that, of course, but if you lie to your MD you're on your own. My recommendation is simple: seek professional help. If you don't want to take SSRIs, fair enough; your MD won't force you. Heck, they might even be reluctant to prescribe them. But professional help is much more than drugs. Think about CBT, mindfulness, under the guidance of professionals; not self-medicating new age hippies.
mirimir 9y ago
That brings back horrible memories. I took an SSRI for several years, initially prescribed by a GP. But the problem was that I wasn't "depressed". I am bipolar, and sometimes got stuck in down mode. The SSRI did make me more functional. But what it mostly did was make me affectless. That is, I could be sad or happy or angry or whatever, and I felt pretty much nothing. However, I still did whatever someone who was sad or happy or angry or whatever would do. You could say that it made me sociopathic. But fortunately, not homicidal or suicidal. Or at least, not in a big way. Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm. And yes, quitting was painful. Mostly I recall restless leg syndrome. I would kick my partner while asleep. And I got even crazier for a while, as I tapered off. So now I'm taking modafinil and lamotrigine. Which works very well for me. I'm a little manic most of the time, but I like that. And I'm not at all sociopathic.
- deleted 9y ago
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- Fnoord 9y ago
  > Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm. This is a common side effect of SSRIs. I have the same, but I very much enjoy that side effect. Saves time, and already got a child anyway. I still love pleasuring my significant other just as much as before, btw. People who have bi-polar usually get mood stabilisers such as lithium prescribed. Perhaps anti-psychotics? SSRIs are known to be problematic for bi-polar personality disorder.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Lithium sucks, or so I've heard. Modafinil (antinarcoleptic, originally) plus lamotrigine (anticonvulsant, originally) works well for me. It's easy to tweak the ratio as circumstances warrant. Edit: About sex. My wife at the time did like that I took longer to reach orgasm. However, after we separated, I discovered that wearing a condom made orgasm unreachable. And that did become a problem. Albeit an amusing one, in retrospect.
    - 9y ago
Karrot_Kream 9y ago
To offer the converse, I had a very traumatic event in my life and was put on an SSRI, which helped me function. After almost 2 years of taking it, I didn't think I needed it anymore and I tapered myself off very slowly but regularly, keeping logs and setting alarms. While in the beginning I felt some vertigo and other symptoms, I tapered very gradually, and was completely free at the end of my taper. My symptoms never come back and the SSRI helped me make very real progress on my issues. I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it, as I would have probably not been able to hold down a (at the time, very stressful) job during the initial phases after the event without the help of the SSRI, and it probably would have taken me many years to recover. For those that SSRIs work on, it really works.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it... Your story of recovery is a good one (and not the only good one). The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications. IMHO they are best used short term (whatever that means) while you work through your issues - like you did. For those reading, there is no "correct" timeline for working through your issues. Everyone goes at their own pace. I would just encourage you to try, and not assume a lifetime of medication is a good solution.
  - indecisive_user 9y ago
    >The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications Why is this a problem? If long term studies prove detrimental effects then sure, it's a problem. But taking a pill every day isn't inherently bad for you. If you live in a northern climate you would probably benefit from taking Vitamin D every day your entire life, so what's the fundamental difference of an SSRI?
    - meowface 9y ago
      The issue isn't taking medication daily; it's taking psychotropic, brain- and personality-altering medication for years, especially when it comes with potential for bad side effects which may last after cessation (such as with SSRIs). I take vitamin D daily and I really don't think you can equate it to SSRIs whatsoever. Clearly SSRIs help many people in a significant way, but their mechanism of action is still poorly understood and their effects are powerful enough that they should be prescribed and taken long-term only with careful advising and caution. For some people, maybe taking them until the day they die is the best option, but it probably is also harmful for some people to take them for several years.
ada1981 9y ago
Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms including deceased emotions in general. There are many alternatives that have been shown to be as or more effective. Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. Spending an afternoon a week outside. Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. And of course, Psychedelics. Many of you know my story of coming from schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety, suicidal depression, mania, etc. and going on a path of returning to my self after having a vision that what was needed to was to go into the pain more fully and then seeking out various modalities to do just that. It's possible to do, but you'll need to seek out support outside the mainstream.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  > Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. > Spending an afternoon a week outside. > Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. > And of course, Psychedelics. Heh, a decent psychologist would suggest #3 during e.g. CBT sessions. Suggesting #4 is downright dangerous, you don't know who reads your post. Readers, please seek professional help -based on conventional science- instead. I tried all kind of self-help BS, including using psychedelics on my own, because I did not trust conventional science (ie. psychologists, psychiatrists). None of the pseudoscientific self-help BS helped, of course, and it gave me a severe lag in my life and professional career. At the very least people should try out professional help first. But if I went on with it after the first failure (a diagnosis + meds for GAD which didn't quite work out) right afterwards, I might have figured out I have autism at my 27th instead of my 34th.
  - fogzen 9y ago
    How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes... Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.
    - Fnoord 9y ago
wbkang 9y ago
Is there a reason why people are trying to stop taking it? If it helps your life, why not keep using it? For example, I have been taking antihistamine daily for the last 18 years for skin allergy. My QoL is significantly better with it, and unless there is some magical cure, I don't see why I should stop just because it's a "drug", "chemical" or "unnatural". For example, from the article, > "A year and a half after stopping, I’m still having problems. I’m not me right now; I don’t have the creativity, the energy. She — Robin — is gone" If that's important to you, why not continue?
- mirimir 9y ago
  Taking an SSRI more or less made me sociopathic. Sociopathic with a grin, perhaps, but still dangerous to myself and others. On the other hand, I wasn't depressed, and could work effectively. So basically, it was side effects. Friends worried about me.
- jack_h 9y ago
  Anecdotally I quit because I had just entered a relationship and the anti-depressants affected my sex life in a pretty big way.
  - himom 9y ago
    Neither mirtazapine nor trintellix affected me at all in that dept. I can’t take paxil, zoloft or valium, so it’s probably different. I personally wouldn’t stop antidepressants because my physiology goes straight into depression without exception, and then the relationship would likely flounder.
  - wbkang 9y ago
    I had to take 1/2 dose because of that but it was fine after that. Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Because depression isn't a lifelong thing, it should be at worst episodic. Because SSRIs have side effects, and you tolerate those if it's preventing depression, but you might not tolerate them if you're now taking a medication for life.
superkuh 9y ago
>Yet withdrawal has never been a focus of drug makers or government regulators, who felt antidepressants could not be addictive and did far more good than harm. They're not addictive. They cause dependence. There is an important difference. Addictive things increase incentive salience of stimuli associated with the drug. They increase wanting. And that increased wanting leads to increased usage. Dependence on a drug does not have this aspect. It just represents the bodies physiological adaptation to the new state. Conflating the two is bad practice for an article ostensibly about medicine. And it leads people, and that set includes legislators, to think about using more government violence to enforce regulations of drugs which create dependence.
- joe_the_user 9y ago
  While your differentiation between addiction and dependency is certainly correct as the medical profession defines these thing, simple dependency would sound like addiction to a lot of average people. Further, it should be obvious that dependency is a problem. If the medical profession thinks it's solved that problem by redefining words, I'd say state regulation is pretty appropriate step.
  - wbl 9y ago
    Have you kicked your oxygen dependence yet?
    - ACow_Adonis 9y ago
      I'm getting there one day at a time :)
- onetwotree 9y ago
  Having been addicted to prescription pills, and currently being prescribed (and presumably dependent on) antidepressants, I think there are a few points that make the distinction abundantly clear: 1. When I consider stopping antidepressants, I'm not filled with anything like the dread I was when I thought about giving up the addictive pills. 2. I forget to take my antidepressants sometimes. I forget to refill the prescription sometimes. 3. I have never had any desire to take more than the prescribed dose of my antidepressants. It's an important distinction, and unfortunately one that folks in the recovery community sometimes miss. In my experience the above characterization usually brings it home much better than some heavily medicalized description of addiction vs dependency.
cassowary37 9y ago
Ah, another Benedict Carey antidepressant hatchet job. Anecdotes about withdrawal symptoms + alarmist statistics about number of Americans on antidepressants + vague questions about lack of data suggesting that we know little about antidepressant long-term safety. A few important points: 1. Antidepressants can truly change people's lives. Not everyone's, and they're not the only treatment that works. Somehow this reporter tends to consistently overlook the clear evidence of benefit (I think this recent meta-analysis was posted on hn: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251) 2. Withdrawal symptoms are common if antidepressants are stopped abruptly - some of the folks who reported these symptoms originally have been favorite targets of Benedict Carey, ironically (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960). That's why docs encourage tapering antidepressants. 3. The article doesn't distinguish between this sort of short-term withdrawal (common), and longer-term problems with discontinuation (likely quite rare) - they're very very different phenomena. 4. In some cases, difficulty with discontinuing longer-term is a result of persistent depression and anxiety (or returning depression and anxiety). It's not polite to point this out. 5. It's hard to imagine the Times writing an article about the problem with statins being that, once you stop them, cholesterol increases again. 6. If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them - and believe me, people have looked and are looking. 7. BUT - we /do/ need more research to understand long-term effects of antidepressant treatment; this absence of systematic long-term study is true for most meds, frankly, but that's no excuse. My question would be: Who pays for it? There's no shortage of investigators who would be delighted to study it. But try getting a foundation, or NIH, to support such a study. /rant
- dimal 9y ago
  > If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them Drug makers have no incentive to see them. I can say from experience that I have seen them. I spent two months out of work when I had to discontinue Effexor. Other people complained about “brain zaps” and were largely ignored. My doctor never warned me. The evidence is there but there if you look, but there is no one with an economic incentive to pay attention. Just because there are few studies documenting these symptoms doesn’t mean they’re not. This is a wake up call that more studies need to be done.
deleted 9y ago
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himom 9y ago
I was on 60mg/day Remeron (mirtazapine) for 9 years but discontinued due to decline in its effects. Tried a bunch of the remaining medications, found trintellix which ups anxiety 5x but addresses depression. Taking hydroxyzine as needed for anxiety now. During taper symptoms: - nausea - general anxiety After taper symptoms (continue today): - general anxiety - strong, brief muscle contractions anywhere in my body (myoclonus) - weight loss (good)
- rotexo 9y ago
  I am currently on mirtazapine, and this article is prompting me to look into tapering off the drug. I would much appreciate any advice you would give on the process, and any other considerations you can think of that I should be aware of.
leo_mck 9y ago
I tried exactly 14 different antidepressants, at different dosages in the last 10 years. None of them got any positive effect and I could stop without feeling anything different too, except, on some cases, very mild "brain zaps". I do not know why not any of this drugs had any (positive) effect (only some common collateral effects in some cases) but I wonder if there is a correlation between the drug doing it's work and being hard to quit...
comfrey 9y ago
#ashwagandha
contingencies 9y ago
It's the other heroin. People can't get off the stuff, and it's everywhere. In about 2012 I visited Copenhagen, capital of Denmark, which was until recently allegedly the self-reported "happiest nation on earth". I found it extremely weird that everyone was perfectly dressed and all the interiors were spotless, but nobody was smiling. It was like I had walked on to the set of some kind of dystopian movie. Mentioning this to an American woman who appeared and who had been resident there for some time, she simply laughed and leaned closer. "It's because they're all on antidepressants!"
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  > "It's because they're all on antidepressants!" Well, in the same period I have lived next to Copenhagen for three years (in Malmö) and this does not match my experience of the city nor the country in general in the slightest. Perhaps you visited near the end of winter, or when spring just started and the sun hadn't fully returned? The long winters can suck out the energy of anyone near the end of them, but during every other part of the year the Danes I know are a very cheerful bunch. More likely though, I think it's a different attitude towards smiling itself. In the US it seems like much more of a social thing: aside from spontaneous, genuine smiles, there is also smiling as part of how you present yourselves to others, almost like a form of politeness. That doesn't apply to European cultures.
- projektir 9y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of anti-depressants, but this is just silly. Smiling lots is mostly a cultural difference and Americans seem to be the odd ones out there, not the other way around.
  - contingencies 9y ago
    Well, it's a true story. Silly is assuming I'm American. I'm an Aussie/Kiwi/German resident in China, and at the time of the story I had just crossed over from Germany, who aren't exactly known for unbridled displays of west coast US optimism either.
    - 9y ago
friedman23 9y ago
Anti depressants along with support from my family and therapist saved my life. Prior to taking anti depressants I would get into moods so depressed that I would have significant chest pain and headaches. The headaches were so severe that without any consideration I almost jumped from the roof of one my school buildings. Within the first week of taking anti depressants (wellbutrin, I later switched to prozac) I would at random moments of the day begin to remember funny memories. I would be walking to my dorm from class and remember a funny gag from the simpsons and break into a stupid grin. After two years on anti depressants I was able to stop taking them. I was able to do this by accepting and understanding that while I may have real reasons to be sad, the underlying reason that I was dwelling on these negative thoughts was my brain chemistry. Once I accepted this I was able to justify cheaper less harmful ways of medicating my depression. Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy I think the worst mistake people with depression make is reinforcing their sadness by listening to sad music, watching sad movies or reading sad books when in fact they should be doing the opposite. They also allow their depression to become part of their identity.
- hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
  Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy This sounds a bit like you discovered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. That's actually a very insightful, practical approach you developed.
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
>The drugs have helped millions of people ease depression and anxiety, and are widely regarded as milestones in psychiatric treatment. History is littered with harmful, poorly-thought out "psychiatric treatments" that were widely regarded as milestones. Even if there are a tiny minority of people who's mental condition is so bad that scrambling their brain with drugs will lead to an "improvement", the widespread reliance on these drugs to treat the every-growing number of depressed and anxious people is not a good thing for individuals, or for society. This is especially true when it comes to young children, whose brains are being warped during the critical stages of development. Over a million children under 5 years old are being dosed with these mind-altering chemicals based on ridiculous ADHD or "defiance" disorders. Over ten million children under 17. Its very telling that the intelligentsia at the apex of society think that the answer to fixing our broken children is to drug them rather than to fix the broken society that they perpetuate. https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychiatric-drugs/ https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychi...
- jonhendry18 9y ago
  CCHR is Scientology. You sure you want to believe them?
Friedduck 9y ago
I know someone who took Effexor, who went through one of the most harrowing experiences of her life trying to quit. Her doctor seemed vested in keeping her taking the drug (I personally suspect some kind of incentive to sell the drug but don’t have evidence to back that up.) I can’t emphasize enough how serious these drugs are, and what a prison they can become.
- raisedbyninjas 9y ago
  You can see what pharma companies pay to your Dr. at https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/ https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/
deleted 9y ago
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NetOpWibby 9y ago
Thanks to the comments here, I was able to figure out why my wife had been experiencing vertigo for the past couple weeks. She ran out of Zoloft and didn’t bother taking any of her refill (we were busy moving). Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone!

209 points by molecule 9y ago

The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science: https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalance-theory-of-depression-still-promoted-but-still-unfounded/ https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalanc...

make3 9y ago
Meta studies still show that antidepressants help more than the placebo https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847
- ada1981 9y ago
  Hmm... I question a meta study that says it has finally solved the issue and put it to rest, when there are plenty of other studies saying the exact opposite. Here's one: https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12888-016-1173-2 https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12... "SSRIs might have statistically significant effects on depressive symptoms, but all trials were at high risk of bias and the clinical significance seems questionable. SSRIs significantly increase the risk of both serious and non-serious adverse events. The potential small beneficial effects seem to be outweighed by harmful effects."
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    All the major meta-analyses come to roughly the same conclusion, which is that anti-depressants have modest positive effects. The paper you linked to finds exactly this, but argues that the effect size they found is insignificant because of the high risk of bias. Other studies have gone to extraordinary lengths to control for potential biases and come up with a very similar effect size. Reasoning about the data is quite challenging, because we're talking about relatively small shifts in a relatively broad statistical distribution. "Number needed to treat" is a useful epidemiological concept in this case. A perfect drug that cures every single patient has an NNT of one - for each patient you treat, one patient is successfully treated. When you translate the results of SSRI meta-analyses, you get an NNT of about seven - for every seven patients who take SSRIs, one more patient will recover than if those patients were given a placebo. It's hard to know what to do with that information. Is it worth prescribing antidepressants to 1,000,000 people to treat 142,000 of them? On a pure cost-benefit analysis, the answer is a resounding yes. Antidepressants are relatively cheap and safe. Are you willing to take a pill every day to get a one-in-seven chance of an effective treatment? Maybe. If you're in the throes of a deep depression, you might be willing to give anything a try. If you're just feeling a bit blue, maybe not. By the same token, if you're taking antidepressants and you don't think that they're helping, you're probably right.
    - darkerside 9y ago
      As a layman, I find it surprising that SSRIs were clinically approved for treatment based on a 1 in 7 chance of demonstrating positive effects. Are other medications anywhere near as ineffective? Whether antibiotics, Tylenol, or Viagra, I can't imagine any of those being effective in less than, say, 5 out of 7 cases.
      - jdietrich 9y ago
        >Are other medications anywhere near as ineffective? Yes. Reviews suggest that statins have an NNT of between 50 and 200 depending on the patient's underlying risk for cardiovascular disease. Coronary stents are probably useless. Reviews of antibiotics, antivirals and corticosteroids show a wide range of NNTs and often show no positive effect. The drug approval system has a relatively high bar for safety, but a relatively low bar for efficacy. A drug manufacturer only has to prove that their drug is effective for one particular cohort of patients with a particular disease, but doctors are then free to prescribe the drug to any patient with any disease. Many surgical interventions are never subject to a randomised controlled trial. http://www.thennt.com/home-nnt/ http://www.thennt.com/home-nnt/
        darkerside 9y ago
        Good point. I think stents, and to some extent, statins, are starting to be exposed as often misused tools. Yet, for some reason, it feels politically incorrect to ask the same questions if SSRIs.
- fogzen 9y ago
  And multiple studies show them no more effective than exercise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/ The bigger problem is “depression” is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    >> The bigger problem is “depression” is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker. That's something I like to point out using SSRIs as an example. The claim is that they increase levels of serotonin and that the cause of the depression is reduced serotonin. The thing is, nobody actually checks your serotonin levels and says "oh that's low take this." Then there's the problem of why ones serotonin is low when it wasn't always that way. There are probably many causes of depression and quite possibly some that don't lower serotonin.
    - empath75 9y ago
      If mdma makes you friendlier, does that mean that people who are shy are suffering from friendliness deficit disorder and can I get a prescription for it.
  - friedman23 9y ago
    >no more effective than exercise You say this as if it were a bad thing but if SSRIs are as effective as exercise wouldn't that mean that they are very effective? If you were to tell me a fat burning pill were no more effective than exercise I would start taking it.
- gabept 9y ago
  Even if that was true, it doesn't invalidate the fact there is no scientific reasoning behind the theory of chemical imbalance.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    We don't really know how antidepressants work. We don't know how a lot of drugs work. Nobody knows why acetaminophen (paracetamol) cures your headache. Knowing how a drug works is useful but not essential; modern medicine relies on hundreds of drugs with unknown mechanisms of action.
fogzen 9y ago
SSRI’s are no more effective than placebo or exercise in multiple studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/# https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/#
- cassowary37 9y ago
  but when you look across 522 studies with more than 100k participants, evidence of efficacy is indisputable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251
  - NPMaxwell 9y ago
    The Cipriani study is a nice meta-analysis: "The random-effects summary SMD for all antidepressants was 0·30" This site explains SMD: http://handbook-5-1.cochrane.org/chapter_9/9_2_3_2_the_standardized_mean_difference.htm http://handbook-5-1.cochrane.org/chapter_9/9_2_3_2_the_stand.... This site shows what 0.3 looks like (actually shows 0.2 and 0.5): http://rpsychologist.com/short-r-script-to-plot-effect-sizes-cohens-d-and-shade-overlapping-area http://rpsychologist.com/short-r-script-to-plot-effect-sizes.... Typically, when people are summarizing this line of research saying that there is no effect, they are talking about these kinds of effect sizes which look like they round to pretty much no effect. I think using SMD for reporting by itself is unfortunate: my understanding is that the drugs have large effects for a minority of patients -- rather than that they shift everyone's emotional experience over a little bit.
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      But note that there's no attempt to control for the (extremely strong) anti-histamine effects of these drugs (particularly elavil.) You need to test them against other anti-histamines which can also improve apparent health, a lot.
      - NPMaxwell 9y ago
        Fascinating idea!
DanBC 9y ago
Luckily most doctors don't push this theory, and you don't need it for SSRIs to be effective.
exist 9y ago
Since there's a lot of quoting of studies on this topic, I hope that everyone reads this very informative (and long) blog post by a psychiatrist on SSRIs and their effectiveness: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-yo...
limeblack 9y ago
Yes this popular "imbalance theory" holds true for all of mental health from bipolar to depression.

Regardsyjc 9y ago

What's worse is that the longer you take certain psychiatric drugs, the greater the long-term damage it can possibly cause to almost disability. It's being between a rock and a hard place. I've taken Abilify, Wellbutrin, Seroquel, and a number of other drugs. The biggest problem when you enter the psychiatric system is you go through pill roulette. You take a drug, try it, see what works, and keep trying till you find what works. Even worse is that I entered the system in high school which is a tumultuous developmental period. One sad personal story is that a psychiatrist started me on a developmental drug. A drug that was approved for other problems but was "in development" for other uses. I tried it and it was worse than Seroquel. Seroquel, if I missed a dose, I couldn't sleep. For this new drug, if I missed a dose, I had a panic attack and if I took it, I would fall asleep. So if I was out too long, let's say traveling, I had to choose between a panic attack or falling asleep. When I confronted my psychiatrist about this problem, instead of taking me off the drug, he prescribed me medication for panic attacks.

dbasedweeb 9y ago
Seroquel is part of a family of drugs (antipsychotics) which have some of the worst long term adverse effects of all psychiatric drugs. Everything from tardive dyskenisia to enlargement of the ventricles of the brain are routinely observed over decades of use, and that’s not even mentioning adverse effects which appear almost immediately. In general though, these drugs have little or nothing to do with antidepressants, SSRI’s or anything most poeple will ever take. Of course the adverse effects of psyshcosis and untreated psychotic illness are much worse, including homelessness and death. So while these drugs are undeniably difficult to live with, people who have been prescribed the family including Seroquel generally really need them to function. All of which is to say that the struggles of people on neuroleptic therapy are generally very different from what’s being discussed in the article here.
- ada1981 9y ago
  An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient. The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete. It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection. I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I used to be terrified of them and tried to avoid them at all costs. Now, it's very much an initiation into whatever the next level of my life demands of me. I've learned to make symptoms bigger vs supressing them and in doing so, I recover vital parts of myself. Without this orientation, I would never have survived so called schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal depression, psychosis.

tempagain567i 9y ago

The use of these anti-depressants is extremely irresponsible. Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. This will all be looked back upon as very stupid indeed.

vanderZwan 9y ago
> Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. Which leads to another issue that worries me: this kind of thing will end up with a backlash that likely screws over those who really do need the medication.
thatsamonad 9y ago
I take Wellbutrin and Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) every single day for PTSD and I wouldn’t really be able to function without them. I really wouldn’t call myself or the psychiatrist who prescribed them irresponsible. I’d say it’s equally irresponsible to make a blanket statement about something that does actually help people in certain circumstances. That being said, there are a number of GPs out there who prescribe things without fully understanding the consequences. I’ve always had a GP refer me to a psychiatrist for any mental health issues, however.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  I think the "irresponsibility" was aimed at the medical field, not at the patients. At least that was how I decided to read it. EDIT: Also, I think that even for the patients where the cause of the depression is not "chemical" in origin, that does not reduce the severity of the illness in the slightest. It just means that the causes may lie elsewhere (for example externally). I have been depressed as an indirect result of the troubles I got myself into due to undiagnosed ADD. In my case, yes, I needed medication to treat my condition, as well as therapy. But I did not need antidepressants, I needed medication for ADHD (and I just checked: lisdexamfetamine is currently not considered an effective anti-depressant[0]). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression
  - 9y ago

CocaKoala 9y ago

My heart and sympathy goes out to anybody who's on antidepressants and is trying to get off. From what I've seen and heard, it is just an incredibly painful and unpleasant experience, compounded by the fact that you need to be constantly negotiating with your insurance to cover the changing prescriptions as your dosage lowers. The withdrawal symptoms can be incredibly oppressive and disruptive. I wish there was more research into this, because I think it could help a lot of people.

rincebrain 9y ago
It varies wildly by person, even moreso possibly than antidepressant efficacy. I've been...fortunate, if you can call it that, that while I've taken a great many antidepressants and other psychiatric medications, the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache. I've had friends and family members who have had much worse, and I've had to carefully consider it each and every time, because we lack any kind of monitoring or ways of informing us how bad it might be.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  > the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache I wonder if that's worse than a newborn.
  - wolco 9y ago
    Much worse, something that can't be compared. Anyone would prefer a newborn which is an external person that you provide care and watch grow. Sure it will keep you up but it also provides emotions to help fuel you past those weak moments. When you are internally off where you can't sleep the affect is different.
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      I had a severe psychosis in my life which took approx 2 months to recover from. In the beginning, I could not sleep and felt like I was fully awake when I slept. I couldn't sleep either, though I wanted to so badly, and my emotions were virtually non-existent (the lack of self-pity was fun though). It occurred a while after I was off SSRIs (Citalopram) but not right after. Newborn creates hormones, sure, but needs constant attention and requires high maintenance. There's no voluntary break. Ours needs to eat every 3 hrs. Can set my clock to it, and can't sleep right after feeding (she's gotta sleep first, or go through intestine pain). I know it isn't the end of the world, and given the psychosis I been through worse, but this is flat out rough [for me]. I wish I'd get positive emotions during weak moments. I mean, if I'd have that, they wouldn't be weak moments. After one hour of crying and trying to solve in every way I can think of I become desperate and feel lost. Its those moments I need to control myself and realise it isn't about me; its about her, our newborn. She's the one who's suffering, and doesn't know better. I wonder if it helps to cry with her.

fredch 9y ago

"Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". Having been on the Zoloft,I can say is got a black box warning for a reason and should only be taken if you're seriously in danger of self harm. Shrinks like it because it keeps people coming back. People like it because they're not willing to confront their real problems and want something to numb themselves out. Just say "No!".

deleted 9y ago
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leetcrew 9y ago
> "Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". sure, but you can make the same point about any drugs that people develop physical dependencies on. aside from alcohol and benzodiazepines, you will survive. antidepressant withdrawal varies a lot from person to person though. the brain zaps can definitely be severe enough that it becomes unsafe to drive a car, for instance. > Just say "No!". this I can certainly agree with, for all but the most severe cases. it's almost never worth the common side effects, let alone the rare ones.
stordoff 9y ago
As someone currently on a somewhat high dose of sertraline (100mg b.d.), "numb themselves out" feels like an odd descriptor to use. That seems more like a benzodiazapine-class drug, and certainly doesn't match my experiences (it makes me more prone to insomnia, which I would not associate with a numbing agent) and wouldn't be otherwise be enjoyable/desirable but for the fact that it treats real problems (for me, OCD and anxiety disorder). > Just say "No!" They are probably over-prescribed, but a blanket "No!" ignores the cases where they do work, and provide a significant increase in quality of life.
- markroseman 9y ago
  Some people do get what they'd describe as emotional numbing. Think of it as a decreased range of emotion. Sertraline has a relatively higher incidence of this than other SxRI's

aviv 9y ago

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. It's all about disease and symptom management.

vanderZwan 9y ago
> Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. I know enough people in the field of modern medicine to know that that is hyperbole. At least in the European countries that I have lived in. EDIT: I am sorry to hear from the responses to this that this may not be quite so hyperbolic in the US. I hope that trend will be reversed somehow.
- maym86 9y ago
  Having lived in US and UK there is a big difference. I have experienced US doctors tring to upsell me on treatments for a superficial leg injury that UK doctors who have seen the same thing have not and said just leave it unless it causes pain. Similar experience with dental care in US.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- themgt 9y ago
  Before you downvote op for an admittedly over-broad opinion you truly need to experience the USA model of overprescription, drug ads on billboards and all over TV shows targeted by demographic, all sorts of IP shenanigans to extend IP/re-patent/pointlessly reformulate/roadblock generics/cherry-pick studies for new drugs that have no real benefit but a higher price. European medicine is indeed worlds different, and the European population is far less sick, overmedicated and suffering from iatrogenesis.
  - lbotos 9y ago
    To put it in perspective, I live in the US and I have an ad for Xeljans stuck in my head. With the tagline "If methathrexate didn't work for you, maybe Xeljans is right." It's that insane right now.

intralizee 9y ago

I've seen enough people in my life become addicted to antidepressants because of a traumatizing event in their life for me to have a dark outlook on it. Instead of therapy or taking real course of action to resolve the trauma/inner problem, a doctor will just label a person suffering depression. The greatest use of an umbrella-word "Depression" to get people on prescription medication and typically the problem never goes away as the problem is now just a word associated to illness one must have. A pseudo science practice at best and impossible for a trusting person to escape it. My personal opinion is that there are few people actually on the drug that are suffering "depression" without a rational life event cause.

yodsanklai 9y ago
Antidepressants have drawbacks, but what matters is that the benefits outweigh the cost. That is something that doctors discuss with their patients when considering such a treatment.
- etiam 9y ago
  whether the benefits outweigh the cost, and that is something doctors should discuss objectively with their patients when considering such a treatment. These substances are yet another instance in the history of psychopharmacology where the touted benefits have been exaggerated and the harmful side effects denied. They have their place, but in the bodies of a sizable fraction of the current patients is not it.
make3 9y ago
There is no doubt that antidepressant therapy needs to be combined with psychotherapy, sports, meditation and just reducing the unhealthy parts of your life. The cost of taking antidepressants is really low however. Most of the time, they have almost no side effects, and are proven to help https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 Where I live, they are pretty cheap. I find that there is undue bias against antidepressants. If you need them, take them! They help.
- 9y ago

dbt00 9y ago

I was up to 10mg/daily of Lexapro for two years. When my doctor and I agreed it was time to stop taking it, his advice was to go down to 5mg for a week, then stop. When I tried stopping after the 5mg dose I had constant vertigo symptoms and incredible difficulty sleeping. What I ended up doing was cutting the pills in half for a few weeks, then quarters, then removing one day a week from the schedule until I was down 2.5mg/wk. Finally I was able to stop, and only was mildly affected for 3 weeks after that. That stuff does weird things to your brain. On the flip side, I couldn't have gotten through some really rough times without it.

thearn4 9y ago
I had the same issues coming off of Lexapro. Weird brain shocks. Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has been better for me all around, but I worry about what it will be like coming down off of it too. The good news is that I'm overall in a good place and feel like I probably don't need it anymore.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Glad you are in a better place than before, hope the process will go well! I wonder if there is a form of research that could done by following patients who are receiving this treatment, and track how they wean themselves off of it.
- dsnuh 9y ago
  Same thing happened to me going off of Lexapro. I called it "the zaps".
  - toastermoster 9y ago
    That's exactly how I felt getting off of Effexor. I stopped taking them completely one day and after trying to push past the zaps for two weeks I got back on them. I had to get of them gradually by splitting the pills open and splitting up the little balls instead.
    - 9y ago

benevol 9y ago

I hope that this doesn't come over as sarcastic, but the pharmaceutical industry is a business, and they will always operate like one: A business is about making the most money possible: Maximizing revenue is about minimizing the main costs which are generated by the activities of: (a) acquiring the customer (through: advertising and marketing) and, (b) retaining the customer (in this case: through dependency). There are alternatives to anti-depressants. Some people quit depression for good with a well researched and planned LSD trip combined with long-term daily mindful meditation. No, I'm not saying everybody should take LSD.

pcwalton 9y ago
You are suggesting that depressed people may want to take LSD in lieu of SSRIs, which is horrendous advice that can, for example, trigger panic attacks in those with comorbid anxiety. Please don't.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  Cannot agree enough. Thanks.
- benevol 9y ago
  You are saying that. Please don't.
- fogzen 9y ago
  What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don’t fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis. If it’s irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it’s irresponsible to prescribe SSRI’s as well
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    > What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Except that's not how it works. How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved. LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure what drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer it recreationally without the aid of a professional. SSRIs, in contrast, are clinically tested, legally acquired, and administered under the guidance of a professional. > Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Yes, but these side effects are widely documented. There are more common side effects, btw. These are the extreme ones you mentioned, and also the most rare ones. Many side effects are temporary. And if you are suicidal, it is unlikely you get SSRIs prescribed. Unless you lie about that, of course, but if you lie to your MD you're on your own. My recommendation is simple: seek professional help. If you don't want to take SSRIs, fair enough; your MD won't force you. Heck, they might even be reluctant to prescribe them. But professional help is much more than drugs. Think about CBT, mindfulness, under the guidance of professionals; not self-medicating new age hippies.

mirimir 9y ago

That brings back horrible memories. I took an SSRI for several years, initially prescribed by a GP. But the problem was that I wasn't "depressed". I am bipolar, and sometimes got stuck in down mode. The SSRI did make me more functional. But what it mostly did was make me affectless. That is, I could be sad or happy or angry or whatever, and I felt pretty much nothing. However, I still did whatever someone who was sad or happy or angry or whatever would do. You could say that it made me sociopathic. But fortunately, not homicidal or suicidal. Or at least, not in a big way. Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm. And yes, quitting was painful. Mostly I recall restless leg syndrome. I would kick my partner while asleep. And I got even crazier for a while, as I tapered off. So now I'm taking modafinil and lamotrigine. Which works very well for me. I'm a little manic most of the time, but I like that. And I'm not at all sociopathic.

deleted 9y ago
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Fnoord 9y ago
> Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm. This is a common side effect of SSRIs. I have the same, but I very much enjoy that side effect. Saves time, and already got a child anyway. I still love pleasuring my significant other just as much as before, btw. People who have bi-polar usually get mood stabilisers such as lithium prescribed. Perhaps anti-psychotics? SSRIs are known to be problematic for bi-polar personality disorder.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Lithium sucks, or so I've heard. Modafinil (antinarcoleptic, originally) plus lamotrigine (anticonvulsant, originally) works well for me. It's easy to tweak the ratio as circumstances warrant. Edit: About sex. My wife at the time did like that I took longer to reach orgasm. However, after we separated, I discovered that wearing a condom made orgasm unreachable. And that did become a problem. Albeit an amusing one, in retrospect.
  - 9y ago

Karrot_Kream 9y ago

To offer the converse, I had a very traumatic event in my life and was put on an SSRI, which helped me function. After almost 2 years of taking it, I didn't think I needed it anymore and I tapered myself off very slowly but regularly, keeping logs and setting alarms. While in the beginning I felt some vertigo and other symptoms, I tapered very gradually, and was completely free at the end of my taper. My symptoms never come back and the SSRI helped me make very real progress on my issues. I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it, as I would have probably not been able to hold down a (at the time, very stressful) job during the initial phases after the event without the help of the SSRI, and it probably would have taken me many years to recover. For those that SSRIs work on, it really works.

phkahler 9y ago
>> I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it... Your story of recovery is a good one (and not the only good one). The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications. IMHO they are best used short term (whatever that means) while you work through your issues - like you did. For those reading, there is no "correct" timeline for working through your issues. Everyone goes at their own pace. I would just encourage you to try, and not assume a lifetime of medication is a good solution.
- indecisive_user 9y ago
  >The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications Why is this a problem? If long term studies prove detrimental effects then sure, it's a problem. But taking a pill every day isn't inherently bad for you. If you live in a northern climate you would probably benefit from taking Vitamin D every day your entire life, so what's the fundamental difference of an SSRI?
  - meowface 9y ago
    The issue isn't taking medication daily; it's taking psychotropic, brain- and personality-altering medication for years, especially when it comes with potential for bad side effects which may last after cessation (such as with SSRIs). I take vitamin D daily and I really don't think you can equate it to SSRIs whatsoever. Clearly SSRIs help many people in a significant way, but their mechanism of action is still poorly understood and their effects are powerful enough that they should be prescribed and taken long-term only with careful advising and caution. For some people, maybe taking them until the day they die is the best option, but it probably is also harmful for some people to take them for several years.

ada1981 9y ago

Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms including deceased emotions in general. There are many alternatives that have been shown to be as or more effective. Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. Spending an afternoon a week outside. Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. And of course, Psychedelics. Many of you know my story of coming from schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety, suicidal depression, mania, etc. and going on a path of returning to my self after having a vision that what was needed to was to go into the pain more fully and then seeking out various modalities to do just that. It's possible to do, but you'll need to seek out support outside the mainstream.

Fnoord 9y ago
> Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. > Spending an afternoon a week outside. > Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. > And of course, Psychedelics. Heh, a decent psychologist would suggest #3 during e.g. CBT sessions. Suggesting #4 is downright dangerous, you don't know who reads your post. Readers, please seek professional help -based on conventional science- instead. I tried all kind of self-help BS, including using psychedelics on my own, because I did not trust conventional science (ie. psychologists, psychiatrists). None of the pseudoscientific self-help BS helped, of course, and it gave me a severe lag in my life and professional career. At the very least people should try out professional help first. But if I went on with it after the first failure (a diagnosis + meds for GAD which didn't quite work out) right afterwards, I might have figured out I have autism at my 27th instead of my 34th.
- fogzen 9y ago
  How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes... Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.
  - Fnoord 9y ago

wbkang 9y ago

Is there a reason why people are trying to stop taking it? If it helps your life, why not keep using it? For example, I have been taking antihistamine daily for the last 18 years for skin allergy. My QoL is significantly better with it, and unless there is some magical cure, I don't see why I should stop just because it's a "drug", "chemical" or "unnatural". For example, from the article, > "A year and a half after stopping, I’m still having problems. I’m not me right now; I don’t have the creativity, the energy. She — Robin — is gone" If that's important to you, why not continue?

mirimir 9y ago
Taking an SSRI more or less made me sociopathic. Sociopathic with a grin, perhaps, but still dangerous to myself and others. On the other hand, I wasn't depressed, and could work effectively. So basically, it was side effects. Friends worried about me.
jack_h 9y ago
Anecdotally I quit because I had just entered a relationship and the anti-depressants affected my sex life in a pretty big way.
- himom 9y ago
  Neither mirtazapine nor trintellix affected me at all in that dept. I can’t take paxil, zoloft or valium, so it’s probably different. I personally wouldn’t stop antidepressants because my physiology goes straight into depression without exception, and then the relationship would likely flounder.
- wbkang 9y ago
  I had to take 1/2 dose because of that but it was fine after that. Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you.
DanBC 9y ago
Because depression isn't a lifelong thing, it should be at worst episodic. Because SSRIs have side effects, and you tolerate those if it's preventing depression, but you might not tolerate them if you're now taking a medication for life.

superkuh 9y ago

>Yet withdrawal has never been a focus of drug makers or government regulators, who felt antidepressants could not be addictive and did far more good than harm. They're not addictive. They cause dependence. There is an important difference. Addictive things increase incentive salience of stimuli associated with the drug. They increase wanting. And that increased wanting leads to increased usage. Dependence on a drug does not have this aspect. It just represents the bodies physiological adaptation to the new state. Conflating the two is bad practice for an article ostensibly about medicine. And it leads people, and that set includes legislators, to think about using more government violence to enforce regulations of drugs which create dependence.

joe_the_user 9y ago
While your differentiation between addiction and dependency is certainly correct as the medical profession defines these thing, simple dependency would sound like addiction to a lot of average people. Further, it should be obvious that dependency is a problem. If the medical profession thinks it's solved that problem by redefining words, I'd say state regulation is pretty appropriate step.
- wbl 9y ago
  Have you kicked your oxygen dependence yet?
  - ACow_Adonis 9y ago
    I'm getting there one day at a time :)
onetwotree 9y ago
Having been addicted to prescription pills, and currently being prescribed (and presumably dependent on) antidepressants, I think there are a few points that make the distinction abundantly clear: 1. When I consider stopping antidepressants, I'm not filled with anything like the dread I was when I thought about giving up the addictive pills. 2. I forget to take my antidepressants sometimes. I forget to refill the prescription sometimes. 3. I have never had any desire to take more than the prescribed dose of my antidepressants. It's an important distinction, and unfortunately one that folks in the recovery community sometimes miss. In my experience the above characterization usually brings it home much better than some heavily medicalized description of addiction vs dependency.

cassowary37 9y ago

Ah, another Benedict Carey antidepressant hatchet job. Anecdotes about withdrawal symptoms + alarmist statistics about number of Americans on antidepressants + vague questions about lack of data suggesting that we know little about antidepressant long-term safety. A few important points: 1. Antidepressants can truly change people's lives. Not everyone's, and they're not the only treatment that works. Somehow this reporter tends to consistently overlook the clear evidence of benefit (I think this recent meta-analysis was posted on hn: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251) 2. Withdrawal symptoms are common if antidepressants are stopped abruptly - some of the folks who reported these symptoms originally have been favorite targets of Benedict Carey, ironically (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960). That's why docs encourage tapering antidepressants. 3. The article doesn't distinguish between this sort of short-term withdrawal (common), and longer-term problems with discontinuation (likely quite rare) - they're very very different phenomena. 4. In some cases, difficulty with discontinuing longer-term is a result of persistent depression and anxiety (or returning depression and anxiety). It's not polite to point this out. 5. It's hard to imagine the Times writing an article about the problem with statins being that, once you stop them, cholesterol increases again. 6. If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them - and believe me, people have looked and are looking. 7. BUT - we /do/ need more research to understand long-term effects of antidepressant treatment; this absence of systematic long-term study is true for most meds, frankly, but that's no excuse. My question would be: Who pays for it? There's no shortage of investigators who would be delighted to study it. But try getting a foundation, or NIH, to support such a study. /rant

dimal 9y ago
> If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them Drug makers have no incentive to see them. I can say from experience that I have seen them. I spent two months out of work when I had to discontinue Effexor. Other people complained about “brain zaps” and were largely ignored. My doctor never warned me. The evidence is there but there if you look, but there is no one with an economic incentive to pay attention. Just because there are few studies documenting these symptoms doesn’t mean they’re not. This is a wake up call that more studies need to be done.

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himom 9y ago

I was on 60mg/day Remeron (mirtazapine) for 9 years but discontinued due to decline in its effects. Tried a bunch of the remaining medications, found trintellix which ups anxiety 5x but addresses depression. Taking hydroxyzine as needed for anxiety now. During taper symptoms: - nausea - general anxiety After taper symptoms (continue today): - general anxiety - strong, brief muscle contractions anywhere in my body (myoclonus) - weight loss (good)

rotexo 9y ago
I am currently on mirtazapine, and this article is prompting me to look into tapering off the drug. I would much appreciate any advice you would give on the process, and any other considerations you can think of that I should be aware of.

leo_mck 9y ago

I tried exactly 14 different antidepressants, at different dosages in the last 10 years. None of them got any positive effect and I could stop without feeling anything different too, except, on some cases, very mild "brain zaps". I do not know why not any of this drugs had any (positive) effect (only some common collateral effects in some cases) but I wonder if there is a correlation between the drug doing it's work and being hard to quit...

comfrey 9y ago

#ashwagandha

contingencies 9y ago

It's the other heroin. People can't get off the stuff, and it's everywhere. In about 2012 I visited Copenhagen, capital of Denmark, which was until recently allegedly the self-reported "happiest nation on earth". I found it extremely weird that everyone was perfectly dressed and all the interiors were spotless, but nobody was smiling. It was like I had walked on to the set of some kind of dystopian movie. Mentioning this to an American woman who appeared and who had been resident there for some time, she simply laughed and leaned closer. "It's because they're all on antidepressants!"

vanderZwan 9y ago
> "It's because they're all on antidepressants!" Well, in the same period I have lived next to Copenhagen for three years (in Malmö) and this does not match my experience of the city nor the country in general in the slightest. Perhaps you visited near the end of winter, or when spring just started and the sun hadn't fully returned? The long winters can suck out the energy of anyone near the end of them, but during every other part of the year the Danes I know are a very cheerful bunch. More likely though, I think it's a different attitude towards smiling itself. In the US it seems like much more of a social thing: aside from spontaneous, genuine smiles, there is also smiling as part of how you present yourselves to others, almost like a form of politeness. That doesn't apply to European cultures.
projektir 9y ago
I'm not a huge fan of anti-depressants, but this is just silly. Smiling lots is mostly a cultural difference and Americans seem to be the odd ones out there, not the other way around.
- contingencies 9y ago
  Well, it's a true story. Silly is assuming I'm American. I'm an Aussie/Kiwi/German resident in China, and at the time of the story I had just crossed over from Germany, who aren't exactly known for unbridled displays of west coast US optimism either.
  - 9y ago

friedman23 9y ago

Anti depressants along with support from my family and therapist saved my life. Prior to taking anti depressants I would get into moods so depressed that I would have significant chest pain and headaches. The headaches were so severe that without any consideration I almost jumped from the roof of one my school buildings. Within the first week of taking anti depressants (wellbutrin, I later switched to prozac) I would at random moments of the day begin to remember funny memories. I would be walking to my dorm from class and remember a funny gag from the simpsons and break into a stupid grin. After two years on anti depressants I was able to stop taking them. I was able to do this by accepting and understanding that while I may have real reasons to be sad, the underlying reason that I was dwelling on these negative thoughts was my brain chemistry. Once I accepted this I was able to justify cheaper less harmful ways of medicating my depression. Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy I think the worst mistake people with depression make is reinforcing their sadness by listening to sad music, watching sad movies or reading sad books when in fact they should be doing the opposite. They also allow their depression to become part of their identity.

hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy This sounds a bit like you discovered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. That's actually a very insightful, practical approach you developed.

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

>The drugs have helped millions of people ease depression and anxiety, and are widely regarded as milestones in psychiatric treatment. History is littered with harmful, poorly-thought out "psychiatric treatments" that were widely regarded as milestones. Even if there are a tiny minority of people who's mental condition is so bad that scrambling their brain with drugs will lead to an "improvement", the widespread reliance on these drugs to treat the every-growing number of depressed and anxious people is not a good thing for individuals, or for society. This is especially true when it comes to young children, whose brains are being warped during the critical stages of development. Over a million children under 5 years old are being dosed with these mind-altering chemicals based on ridiculous ADHD or "defiance" disorders. Over ten million children under 17. Its very telling that the intelligentsia at the apex of society think that the answer to fixing our broken children is to drug them rather than to fix the broken society that they perpetuate. https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychiatric-drugs/ https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychi...

jonhendry18 9y ago
CCHR is Scientology. You sure you want to believe them?

Friedduck 9y ago

I know someone who took Effexor, who went through one of the most harrowing experiences of her life trying to quit. Her doctor seemed vested in keeping her taking the drug (I personally suspect some kind of incentive to sell the drug but don’t have evidence to back that up.) I can’t emphasize enough how serious these drugs are, and what a prison they can become.

raisedbyninjas 9y ago
You can see what pharma companies pay to your Dr. at https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/ https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/

deleted 9y ago

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NetOpWibby 9y ago

Thanks to the comments here, I was able to figure out why my wife had been experiencing vertigo for the past couple weeks. She ran out of Zoloft and didn’t bother taking any of her refill (we were busy moving). Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone!