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Apart from actual slavery with chains and guns, often the people suffering are suffering less doing the productive work than they would be otherwise because the

Apart from actual slavery with chains and guns, often the people suffering are suffering less doing the productive work than they would be otherwise because they do it by choice. So you could equally say "reducing human suffering has brought us all the things we love". Even when people die, they've taken a risk doing the dangerous job instead of whatever else which was worse. Anyone who drives to work is doing that - you could stay home unemployed or risk death in a car crash to make money.

gpm 9y ago
It's an interesting claim that they are suffering less because they are doing it by choice. I'm not sure if it's true. Doing it by choice creates all sorts of ill psychological effects. It means I have to convince myself to keep doing it, and as a result I'll try to convince myself of things like "it's fair" or "I like this" or so on. I think I might actually be happier as a slave than a wage slave doing the exact same shitty work and ridiculous hours as a slave because at least I can be honest with myself about the situation. Normally wage slavery is better - because it means that the employers can't enforce quite as shitty conditions or long hours as a actual slave. But it's not clear to me that that is happening here, and even if it is happening here if you understood your argument to rely on it.
- aaronblohowiak 9y ago
  “Wage slavery” as it is often used is a bad term that takes away from the fact that there are more total people in slavery or forced labor than ever before in the history of the world. Chattel slavery is repugnant and debases all moral people. Working a shitty job for low pay and an asshole boss sucks but is a difference in kind, not degree.
  - gpm 9y ago
    You literally just stated the opposite of what I was arguing as if it was a fact, with no argument given. And to be clear, we are well beyond "asshole boss" or anything legal in the western world. We are considering a situation where you are treated identically to a slave except that instead of being forced to work via beatings and supplied food, you are supplied just enough money to eat - buying everything at the company store - and forced to work by "well otherwise you starve to death". (By food I also include things like shelter and so on...)
    - lopmotr 9y ago
      > well otherwise you starve to death That's why such work is a good thing, not a bad thing. It saves people from starving to death. Which is what happens periodically during famines in extremely undeveloped countries, such as most of history.
    - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
      I presented a different view, not an argument. I stated my view as fact because it is in fact how I see the world. For arguments about chattel slavey and wage Labour, the Wikipedia article does a pretty good job: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery There are people in the world who are functionally chattel slaves who happen to receive a nominal wage, but this is not what the term “wage slavery” typically refers to; that term (and perhaps your argument, though I am not sure) equivocates wage labor with chattel slavery. I and others believe the difference is vast, important, and moral.

gpm 9y ago

It's an interesting claim that they are suffering less because they are doing it by choice. I'm not sure if it's true. Doing it by choice creates all sorts of ill psychological effects. It means I have to convince myself to keep doing it, and as a result I'll try to convince myself of things like "it's fair" or "I like this" or so on. I think I might actually be happier as a slave than a wage slave doing the exact same shitty work and ridiculous hours as a slave because at least I can be honest with myself about the situation. Normally wage slavery is better - because it means that the employers can't enforce quite as shitty conditions or long hours as a actual slave. But it's not clear to me that that is happening here, and even if it is happening here if you understood your argument to rely on it.

aaronblohowiak 9y ago
“Wage slavery” as it is often used is a bad term that takes away from the fact that there are more total people in slavery or forced labor than ever before in the history of the world. Chattel slavery is repugnant and debases all moral people. Working a shitty job for low pay and an asshole boss sucks but is a difference in kind, not degree.
- gpm 9y ago
  You literally just stated the opposite of what I was arguing as if it was a fact, with no argument given. And to be clear, we are well beyond "asshole boss" or anything legal in the western world. We are considering a situation where you are treated identically to a slave except that instead of being forced to work via beatings and supplied food, you are supplied just enough money to eat - buying everything at the company store - and forced to work by "well otherwise you starve to death". (By food I also include things like shelter and so on...)
  - lopmotr 9y ago
    > well otherwise you starve to death That's why such work is a good thing, not a bad thing. It saves people from starving to death. Which is what happens periodically during famines in extremely undeveloped countries, such as most of history.
  - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
    I presented a different view, not an argument. I stated my view as fact because it is in fact how I see the world. For arguments about chattel slavey and wage Labour, the Wikipedia article does a pretty good job: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery There are people in the world who are functionally chattel slaves who happen to receive a nominal wage, but this is not what the term “wage slavery” typically refers to; that term (and perhaps your argument, though I am not sure) equivocates wage labor with chattel slavery. I and others believe the difference is vast, important, and moral.