13 ms·

Friendica – A Decentralized Social Network

134 points by awiesenhofer 9y ago

common_ 9y ago
All communities have leaders, whales, whatever you want to call them. Even Bitcoin is now controlled by a small group of mostly Chinese people. Decentralization does nothing other than put control in the hands of an unpredictable and potentially unaccountable group of people, whereas centralized systems have people you can point to and hold accountable (or so we hope). There is a reason it's never worked throughout history, and why decentralized systems always collapse into a more efficient centralized form.
- zoul 9y ago
  Like e-mail or the web, perhaps?
  - tadzik_ 9y ago
    Exactly like email or the web. Certain services (shame on you, booking.com) now consider it a potential bug if you email doesn't end in gmail.com (they do their "did you mean: tadzik_@gmail.com?" when I enter the proper one, with my own domain). The web itself also tends to gravitate towards either "cloud" providers or at least stuff like cloudfare for ddos protection. Yes, it is still decentralized, but people keep choosing the centralized subsets of it for convenience.
    - pmlnr 9y ago
      I noticed this too, and it's both quite annoying and rather sad.
    - ColinWright 9y ago
      > "did you mean: tadzik_@gmail.com?" This is incredibly annoying, I agree, but having run a service for which people type their email addresses, and having seen just how many people can't actually type their own email address properly (currently running at about 5%) I'm not surprised that a service aimed at non-technical people puts in attempted safeguards like this. And my service is for technical people - I can't imagine what it's like for genuinely open services.
      - mercer 9y ago
        could you give some examples of the types of mistakes they make?
        ColinWright 9y ago
        Omitting letters in their username, getting the domain wrong by omitting or mutating letters, commas instead of periods, spaces, and more. Some, such as commas and spaces are easy to catch, but mutations in the username are pretty much impossible to catch. Without digging through my records I can't be more specific, but in general I was horrified at how many can't actually spell their own names correctly. Seriously, one person typed jojn.dpe instead of john.doe (name deliberately changed to protect the user). Sometimes it's possible to guess the correct username/domain, but sometimes it simply isn't.
  - always_good 9y ago
    It's funny because those are perfect examples of what they are talking about. Gmail and Cloudflare. For example, the web makes it cheap and trivial to DoS someone. And you often don't want your origin exposed. Hence everyone using Cloudflare and the collapse of the decentralized dream.
- transpostmeta 9y ago
  Email is a decentralized system.
  - hudon 9y ago
    Its design intended it to be used that way, but that's not how people use it. Everyone uses a centralized email provider now (Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc.), and these providers act as gatekeepers to email. If they disappear, people will find an alternative centralized messaging scheme, not start learning how to run their own mail servers...
    - pmlnr 9y ago
      It's true that when or if you need to communicate with them, you need to play by their rules, but it's also true that email has the potential, the power, and the technical solutions to shift away from it, should it ever be needed or wanted. This is not true for centralised by design systems. EDIT: I don't think people will be able to abandon email, given it's a replacement for paper mail (banking, official papers, etc). If the big players won't play nice, people will need to get to another provider, simply because the source of email won't be willing/fast enough to jump on [system X].
    - rglullis 9y ago
      Sorry, it is still decentralized. - Even if it were true that "everyone uses Google/Microsoft/Apple/etc", the ones that don't can still send/receive emails from everyone else. - If one of the of the big providers disappear, the system as a whole will continue to function.
      - hudon 9y ago
        If all centralized providers disappeared and I had to send a message to my friend, I wouldn't setup my own SMTP server... I'd just send him an iMessage. Or I'd post to a Slack group. The system without centralized providers is useless to most people using it today because no one wants to learn how to setup a mail server when there are dozens of alternative messaging tools. As for the few that do have the capacity to setup a mail server, they would only be able to message others that also have the capacity to setup a mail server (again we're assuming no centralized providers and thus no delegation of this task to a trusted party). So maybe the system would still work for this niche group... but then we get into the bigger question: are there entities today that control the Internet and do they have the capacity to shut down systems like email? Tor?
- russdpale 9y ago
  Ill be frank. I don't see the problem with bitcoin as you describe it. The reason the mining power is in China is because they produce the ASICS and they have cheap power. Centralized systems offer this accountability in theory. But rarely does this work in practice.
- arisAlexis 9y ago
  It's total misinformation that Bitcoin is controlled by a group of Chinese actually
granitosaurus 9y ago
Biggest instance only has 723 users. What went wrong with it? Because it looks rather nice.
icc97 9y ago
I did try to mention this before, with creating a Slack clone [0]. PHP and MySQL which is what this is written in are not very sexy but they're perfect for when you want the entire world to be able to use it. There's reasons why PHP has been so successful with WordPress and Facebook. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567271
- bpicolo 9y ago
  > for when you want the entire world to be able to use it True in 2004, today options are plentiful.
  - rando444 9y ago
    I think that's the point. More options = more skills needed.
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    And in 2004, people said the same thing. Perl, Python, JSP, ASP, CF - people argued for and used all of those on major projects in 2004.
- bausshf 9y ago
  I love how you mention Facebook, yet Facebook moved away from traditionally PHP and made their own PHP engine and has a lot of native code in C++.
  - icc97 9y ago
    They still got all their initial scale from PHP until they were so big that it was worth writing their own PHP engine. They would have had the same problem with Python or JavaScript.
    - bausshf 9y ago
      Indeed, but it's a classic example of why you shouldn't use something just because it's popular.
codyswann 9y ago
Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our own bullshit that we fail to realize that the average Facebook user has no idea what "decentralized" means; nor cares that their personal data is being sold. This is another example of faux outrage that will pass with the next news cycle.
- the-dude 9y ago
  A whole new spin on a databreach/dataselling : Don't worry, we just decentralized your data!
- bausshf 9y ago
  Another thing is that this will only appeal to people who are generally tech-minded and not the average joe who uses social media. Most people who uses social media etc. doesn't want to download a lot of things, access should be fairly easy and painless without some sort of "guide", which is what I can see as the downfall for this "social network"
  - bovermyer 9y ago
    When I nuked my Facebook account I didn't bother finding a replacement. The harder problem (for me) to solve is how to build up weak ties outside of social media.
  - chrstphrknwtn 9y ago
    It's more to do with convenience. It was more convenient (and cheaper) to just get Napster / Limewire / Soul Seek / other p2p sharing app and download music than buy it online. In the beginning it was a tech-minded group, but the software got better and easier... and the communities grew. In short order it was not only tech-minded people who did this en-masse. If a platform is convenient for people to do X, it has a good change of also being popular.
- fwdpropaganda 9y ago
  "No one cares that their personal data is being sold" is a HN talking point. A lot of people care. Example: In the EU so many people care that legistators are taking measures to protect the people. Perhaps it's just the people around you that don't care...?
amelius 9y ago
They promise privacy, but in a decentralized system, do I have to trust every node admin?
- tscs37 9y ago
  You have to trust your node admin and the admin of any node you talk to (ie your friend's node)
  - amelius 9y ago
    Obviously, I have no control over what nodes my friends are using. Can I whitelist/blacklist nodes? And how is the situation we're arriving at better than having a single party, in this case Facebook, who is to blame when things go sour?
    - Joeboy 9y ago
      From a personal privacy point of view it seems significantly worse to me, but I guess the positive spin would be that there isn't a single party that can simultaneously blackmail / breach the privacy of a billion people. Although my counter spin would be that in the event of one of these decentralized things going mainstream, a large player would end up being what gmail is for email.
    - tscs37 9y ago
      Atleast on mastodon you can blacklist. Whitelisting nodes is counterproductive to what federation is trying to achieve. A decentralized network means that if things go sour, the cost of switching is small, similar to an email account. If my mail provider fucks up, I point my domain to another one and I don't even bother.
daniel_iversen 9y ago
Not sure what decentralised means. Do the different hosted versions communicate together and sync users and data across each other? (like the blockchain etc. Because that would be fairly important).. Also a real sneaky pro move would be initially to allow people to "sign up" via Facebook :) - once they're registered and the network has their email address then Facebook can become useless, just lowers the barrier to entry and its ironic that Facebook can be used to replace itself.
- daveid 9y ago
  Friendica is part of the fediverse, that is, "federated universe." The model of decentralization is "federation" here. Friendica is interoperable with Mastodon, GNU social, etc.
- Gaelan 9y ago
  Looks like Friendica (along with most of these other "decentralized social media" things) is federated, not distributed in the way that Bitcoin is. They work kind of like email: each person picks one service to use, but users can follow each other across services.
jiri 9y ago
Just thinking, who should provide this decentralized service for common users? Someone who already provide them email? Their internet providers? Family?
niahmiah 9y ago
There will be no company to be outraged at, when all of your data is siphoned... progress!
- daniel_iversen 9y ago
  Yes there's a treasure trove just waiting to be mined and abused unfortunately.
okket 9y ago
Is this thing really decentralised (as in e.g. IPFS) or just federated (like Mail/SMTP)? The website does not offer many details.
- tscs37 9y ago
  Federation is a form of decentralization. What you're looking for is federated vs peer-to-peer decentralization. Friendi.ca is federated and decentralized.
eatinggrin 9y ago
PHP and MySQL...
- darkstar999 9y ago
  ...successfully runs a vast majority of web services on the internet.
  - eatinggrin 9y ago
    I always love the argument that PHP runs 70% of the web. Water covers 70% of earth surface, therefore I should build my house on water. http://i.imgur.com/Fp5pw9o.png http://i.imgur.com/Fp5pw9o.png
    - darkstar999 9y ago
      That's a horrible analogy.
      - eatinggrin 9y ago
        Let me guess, you're a PHP developer.
        corobo 9y ago
        At least show your working on why it's bad. Currently you're coming off as someone that's heard something is bad and repeating it without verifying
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        eatinggrin 9y ago
        I wish I'd heard the bad about PHP before I worked in it; would have saved me the first year of my life in development. Also, most PHP developers are complete morons. And I won't apologize for generalizing.
mtgx 9y ago
Tresorit also announced an end-to-end encrypted social network where the company can't see the users' content. I think that's probably the angle privacy-focused Facebook alternatives will need to take. Unfortunately, they chose a strange-looking Hungarian name for it, so probably nobody will ever pay attention to it because of that: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/prevaat-the-privacy-focused-social-network https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/prevaat-the-privacy-focus...
dasanman 9y ago
I can not see me using this ever
d3ckard 9y ago
I don't know about others, but I don't care if my social media platform is centralized or not. I use FB mainly as news feed(I don't even get that many friends' posts), but I can easily migrate that. What I need is nothing more that somehow fancy address book. FB gives me a way to contact people I don't keep strong relationships with, it lets me organize an event with those people relatively pain-free and it allows me to keep at least a bit in touch. That's all. Give me just those basic features, pour some serious privacy management over that and I will be happy to lead the way switching. I don't care about fancy tech in this case.
- Double_a_92 9y ago
  > I use FB mainly as news feed How did you manage to do that? My feed it full of crap like: Silly memes in local languages, Weird shared videos of something cute or funny, Ads, Game invites, Photos from people I don't really know... I basically only have facebook to kinda keep the contact data of old school friends. I don't even talk to them. (And for dating. Contacting people unsolicitedly but still in a friendly and respectful way works much better than going on online dating sites...)
  - equalunique 9y ago
    If you join FB groups related to things that you care about, then there is a good chance you will see more news related to the things you care about too.
kodablah 9y ago
> Friendica runs on PHP with MySQL as a database. If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. Not the biggest fan of the stack, but no problem. These networks are getting closer. Now create a desktop installer that: has its own web server + php + mysql pieces embedded and execute on their own ports on startup. (I say I don't like the stack because I'd prefer something that can all be statically compiled). Make sure the desktop can easily setup/change/admin this self host and can guide or automatically dyndns and NAT bust. Or if you want to do it right, embed tor, and create a hidden service for me (an ephemeral v3 one would be nice, maybe from a deterministically derived key from a few factors, I'll figure out how to give the unwieldy name to my friends). We have to make self hosting as easy as running mspaint if we're going to tackle this problem right.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  You're more or less describing https://github.com/ssbc/patchwork https://github.com/ssbc/patchwork
  - kodablah 9y ago
    Sure. If I were to give feedback, I'd say it needs a better landing and a user guide for the app (as opposed to the protocol inundated with dev jargon). Not really gonna send my mother a GitHub releases page; she needs to be the intended audience. I guess I could send her http://dinosaur.is/patchwork-downloader/ http://dinosaur.is/patchwork-downloader/ and ask her to read https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/getting-started.html https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/getting-started.html and/or https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/#quick-start https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/#quick-start but even that has friction. Also, I'd like to see it shipped with Tor and just hit a checkbox (at runtime not install time) for anonymity instead of having to manage my own daemon. But this is very close, yes.
    - mercer 9y ago
      Agreed. I'll add that my main issue with Patchwork is that from what I can tell it's pretty much impossible to develop for it without using Node.js. I really think that for this to take off, it needs to focus on 'developer happiness' right now. There's a solid client, a relatively vibrant and activist community, but too little in the way of (relatively) inexperienced devs like myself to build apps on top of. this is especially problematic because the Patchwork client, while impressive, is not something I enjoy using. I'm just itching to build my own alternative clients, as well as apps that run on the SSB protocol, but I can't unless I force myself to get back into the Node ecosystem. Another crucial issue, I find, is the inability to have multiple devices linked (by whatever means) to the same user. The impression I get is that the community is split on either fixing that, or adding more tools to deal with community management. I find that worrying because I've had multiple experiences with communities where ~50% was overly focused on 'preserving what is', and none of those experiences ended up in any kind of success. For the time being I'm still excited about Patchwork, and looking for ways to positively contribute (contrary to this post), but I get too much of a 'sixties imploding commune' vibe to feel comfortable wasting my energy, for now. EDIT: all this sounds somewhat negative, and my apologies for that. But I got and am really excited about the core proposition of the whole thing and just worry a lot about its viability. I'd really love to hear where I'm wrong, or how I could contribute without having to deal with the community kerfuffles that I am not too interested in. It's like CouchSurfing in reverse.
mcs_ 9y ago
Is the "Rebuild from scratch the same thing but using another paradigm" a good option to improve social? I don't have any Facebook accounts but after 15 years programming stuff, I don't see the copy/paste as a powerful solution. Also, distribution is not really the problem here. From architecture point of view Facebook is distributed. The problem is the need of store huge amount of data in the cloud and pretending that to be free.
grinsekatze 9y ago
I think many people that are moving away from Facebook move away from social networks in general. Personally, I am not interested at all in a Facebook replacement. I gave a couple a try, but quickly realized that spending time on these social networks is even more boring than Facebook, especially if none of your friends are on there.. and therefor a total waste of my time. If I need to communicate with friends I do this “directly” via WhatsApp or email.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  I don't know who's downvoting this; this is an actual trend I'm experiencing as well. Those who leave facebook tend to leave for good, and not replace it with anything. I'm yet to decide if it's good or not; I definitely want homepages (not strictly blogs) back, hence see https://indieweb.org https://indieweb.org , but I know most will just simply walk away from social media completely.
- kodablah 9y ago
  > I think many people that are moving away from Facebook move away from social networks in general [...] If I need to communicate with friends I do this "directly" via WhatsApp or email. I'd like to see the line disappear and I'd like to see WhatsApp or email be considered social networking. I think a well built app can have both of those features in addition to the feed+post+comment style of Facebook. From the user perspective, what are all these communication mediums but just "place" configuration? Edit: here're some early scratch grpc services I have been toying with to abstract different communication forms: https://github.com/cretz/yukup/tree/6793fb2b281e4ea7cda1fe5b9f4a10c487e99712/yukup/service/pb https://github.com/cretz/yukup/tree/6793fb2b281e4ea7cda1fe5b...
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Seriously, if Snapchat is considered a social network, IRC/email/WhatsApp/iMessage/Hangouts/SMS is a social network too.
  - firethief 9y ago
    Yeah, I'm sure Facebook could build WhatsApp into a trustworthy social networking platform.
tw1010 9y ago
Man, people are working hard on this idea still. I like the persistence, but something tells me the ambition aught to in most cases be directed towards something less of a winner-take-all hollywood style success market, and more towards something better placed on the effort-to-returns spectrum.
pmlnr 9y ago
This is yet another platform solution. The problem with platform solutions is that they still present one and only one choice of software. Decentralized systems can only take off if they are built around standardized protocols - this is why email works. The choice of smtp servers to run, email clients to choose from, that's what's making it resilient. Ideas like ActivityPub, webmentions, microsub, micropub, while not strictly protocols - all on top of HTTP - could allow us to build real decentralisation, with the weapon of choice on platform, language, client - this is what's truly needed. Most of the platforms like Diaspora, Friendica, Mastodon, can, could, or already have adopted some of these, thus making a good step towards true federation, when anything can talk to anything. EDIT ... but the emphasis right now should be on the glue, the protocols connecting them, not just only the software implementing it.
- MarceColl 9y ago
  While I agree that the emphasis should be on the protocols traction is important and most people see the platform. It can also show some deficiencies of the protocols which is always good. I think most of these platforms do understand the need for true federation. For example Mastodon can now talk and interact with PeerTube through ActivityPub, GNU Social and Mastodon can completely interoperate too.
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    I'm deeply aware how important UX and the actual interfaces are; however, there are still some underdeveloped building blocks, which are not getting enough attention. It is true that user interfaces are just as important, but half-baked solutions might do more harm, than good, resulting in disappointment in those who'd be willing to try them out.
    - kitotik 9y ago
      Leading with UX could be a good (the best?) way to both aid adoption by the normal folks AND let a sane set of requirements emerge that steers the solutions to the most desired set of problems. As much as most people on HN would like to have these protocols specified ‘correctly’, this feels like a situation where the perfect is the enemy of the good.
zzzeek 9y ago
No "servers" to download and host. We have a "server" already it's called email.
einsty 9y ago
Seems that the bright minds here behind friendica could be helpful in the MIT Solid project being run by Tim Berners Lee. And/or they could be a SOLID app themselves:
LinkToTheAss 9y ago
After multiple facebook breaks (and now im off for more than a year) I must say, that I dont see any usage for social media platforms anymore, that work like facebook or google plus. All this egocentric stuff is based on instagram and user created news is based on reddit or twitter. Communication is based on telegram, signal etc. So what the hell do I need FB for? I dont need it and i dont see a reason to switch to an other social media platform like friendica or diaspora anymore. But maybe im just getting old :D
zeveb 9y ago
Sounds interesting, but I don't think PHP & MySQL are a good stack. While it's possible to write secure software in PHP (I'd probably trust the Paragon IE) guys to do it), it's not very likely. As for MySQL — as far as I'm concerned there is essentially no reason to choose it over PostgreSQL, and a project which does so is thus instantly suspect. If they've made an error that grave, what other errors have they made? It'd be like someone choosing Windows as a server OS: there's a small chance it was a good decision, and a far, far greater probability that it was the result of a toxic engineering & management culture.
- nix0n 9y ago
  > If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. The LAMP stack, for all its problems (you're not wrong) is the bog standard and is easy to rent. If you'd rather use Rails, check out Diaspora: the two systems federate together, anyway.
- seanf 9y ago
  Why do you consider choosing MySQL over Postgres a grave error? There are some cool features in Postgres. I am going to learn more about partial indexes, that looks useful! But there is plenty of precedent for large, successful MySQL projects. Uber, for example, switched from PostgreSQL to MySQL in 2016. https://eng.uber.com/mysql-migration/ https://eng.uber.com/mysql-migration/
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > Why do you consider choosing MySQL over Postgres a grave error? Because PostgreSQL focuses on correctness & MySQL focuses on performance & ease of use. With a database, I want correctness first, and performance & ease of use second. Many projects chose MySQL because it was easy to use & somewhat faster, and they didn't realise how broken it was initially. I am sure that many projects failed due to MySQL, and are now lost to history. Choosing MySQL over PostgreSQL betokened the kind of culture which chooses convenience over correctness, which is not the kind of culture I wish to associate myself with. Over time, MySQL added more & more correctness, and PostgreSQL got faster & faster. As it turned out, PostgreSQL with the right performance flags is faster than MySQL with the right correctness flags. In the specific case of Uber, it sounds like they're essentially using MySQL as the underlying storage mechanism for a key-value store, and are able to build the mechanisms they need atop it. Also, PostgreSQL less efficient for their usage patterns than MySQL. That makes sense, and seems like a sensible engineering decision. 'Essentially no reason to choose [MySQL] over PostgreSQL' doesn't mean no reason at all. It's kinda like how sometimes it makes sense to write an inner loop in assembly, but it extraordinarily rarely makes sense to write a word processor in assembly in 2018.
Xeoncross 9y ago
Thank you Friendica team! We need more work in this space! > Friendica runs on PHP with MySQL as a database. If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. This is a problem. I picture the future decentralized systems being a self-contained system that runs on your device (desktop or mobile) as well as servers for more technical people. To this end the only scripting language that can pull this off is Javascript. Ruby and PHP are not needed or useful in this space. To anyone that reads this, please take a couple weeks to learn Node (+electron or react-native), Go, or (hardest) Rust.
- darkstar999 9y ago
  In what way is installing and running node different than installing and running PHP or any other? Anything that ran like this would have to be contanerized anyway, meaning literally any stack would work.
  - Xeoncross 9y ago
    I wasn't talking about running a node server application. I used "node" to refer to the v8 engine being embedded into an electron or mobile app which Ruby and PHP can't do (at least with any level of ease).
- russdpale 9y ago
  No!! God not electron. Please no more electron apps. This seems pretty good but haven't used it yet. https://proton-native.js.org https://proton-native.js.org
- parvenu74 9y ago
  This makes me think of Docker containers but for desktop rather than server use. Let the language/stack be Elixir/Phoenix if that's what the devs want to use; as long as I can pull down an app container that runs on my machine then the need to rely on a least-common-denominator language goes away and we're all better off.
  - Xeoncross 9y ago
Taek 9y ago
Is there a whitepaper? Difficult to analyze the system and decide whether it's going to do a good job, be safe against adversaries and manipulation, etc. without seeing some sort of high level description of how it works. Knowing it uses php and mysql doesn't tell me anything about the actual application.
prophesi 9y ago
These decentralized social networks could benefit from that statically-linked web app post [0]. Sure, it's pretty simply to get a LAMP stack up and running to host a Friendica node. But a simple executable would lower the barrier even further! I think ease-of-use/access, along with a well thought out federation protocol, will be critical for these networks to replace Facebook/Twitter/etc. As it is now, I can only get my techie friends to try these out. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16765020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16765020
beders 9y ago
Another site that is doing their marketing all wrong. My Dad couldn't give a rat's ass if the network was 'Decentralized' or that 'Relationships can be made across any compatible system' All he wants is see pictures of his grand daughters and post funny gifs to his friends. With a signup that is so simple even my err Dad could do it! With a process to move away from Facebook to the new platform (and keep all his stuff) that is so simple my Dad could do it.
- granitosaurus 9y ago
  Why on earth would you think that target priority would be middle-age dads for any product? First you target at enthusiasts then you can expand do nice hip groups or teens/students.

134 points by awiesenhofer 9y ago

All communities have leaders, whales, whatever you want to call them. Even Bitcoin is now controlled by a small group of mostly Chinese people. Decentralization does nothing other than put control in the hands of an unpredictable and potentially unaccountable group of people, whereas centralized systems have people you can point to and hold accountable (or so we hope). There is a reason it's never worked throughout history, and why decentralized systems always collapse into a more efficient centralized form.

zoul 9y ago
Like e-mail or the web, perhaps?
- tadzik_ 9y ago
  Exactly like email or the web. Certain services (shame on you, booking.com) now consider it a potential bug if you email doesn't end in gmail.com (they do their "did you mean: tadzik_@gmail.com?" when I enter the proper one, with my own domain). The web itself also tends to gravitate towards either "cloud" providers or at least stuff like cloudfare for ddos protection. Yes, it is still decentralized, but people keep choosing the centralized subsets of it for convenience.
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    I noticed this too, and it's both quite annoying and rather sad.
  - ColinWright 9y ago
    > "did you mean: tadzik_@gmail.com?" This is incredibly annoying, I agree, but having run a service for which people type their email addresses, and having seen just how many people can't actually type their own email address properly (currently running at about 5%) I'm not surprised that a service aimed at non-technical people puts in attempted safeguards like this. And my service is for technical people - I can't imagine what it's like for genuinely open services.
    - mercer 9y ago
      could you give some examples of the types of mistakes they make?
      - ColinWright 9y ago
        Omitting letters in their username, getting the domain wrong by omitting or mutating letters, commas instead of periods, spaces, and more. Some, such as commas and spaces are easy to catch, but mutations in the username are pretty much impossible to catch. Without digging through my records I can't be more specific, but in general I was horrified at how many can't actually spell their own names correctly. Seriously, one person typed jojn.dpe instead of john.doe (name deliberately changed to protect the user). Sometimes it's possible to guess the correct username/domain, but sometimes it simply isn't.
- always_good 9y ago
  It's funny because those are perfect examples of what they are talking about. Gmail and Cloudflare. For example, the web makes it cheap and trivial to DoS someone. And you often don't want your origin exposed. Hence everyone using Cloudflare and the collapse of the decentralized dream.
transpostmeta 9y ago
Email is a decentralized system.
- hudon 9y ago
  Its design intended it to be used that way, but that's not how people use it. Everyone uses a centralized email provider now (Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc.), and these providers act as gatekeepers to email. If they disappear, people will find an alternative centralized messaging scheme, not start learning how to run their own mail servers...
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    It's true that when or if you need to communicate with them, you need to play by their rules, but it's also true that email has the potential, the power, and the technical solutions to shift away from it, should it ever be needed or wanted. This is not true for centralised by design systems. EDIT: I don't think people will be able to abandon email, given it's a replacement for paper mail (banking, official papers, etc). If the big players won't play nice, people will need to get to another provider, simply because the source of email won't be willing/fast enough to jump on [system X].
  - rglullis 9y ago
    Sorry, it is still decentralized. - Even if it were true that "everyone uses Google/Microsoft/Apple/etc", the ones that don't can still send/receive emails from everyone else. - If one of the of the big providers disappear, the system as a whole will continue to function.
    - hudon 9y ago
      If all centralized providers disappeared and I had to send a message to my friend, I wouldn't setup my own SMTP server... I'd just send him an iMessage. Or I'd post to a Slack group. The system without centralized providers is useless to most people using it today because no one wants to learn how to setup a mail server when there are dozens of alternative messaging tools. As for the few that do have the capacity to setup a mail server, they would only be able to message others that also have the capacity to setup a mail server (again we're assuming no centralized providers and thus no delegation of this task to a trusted party). So maybe the system would still work for this niche group... but then we get into the bigger question: are there entities today that control the Internet and do they have the capacity to shut down systems like email? Tor?
russdpale 9y ago
Ill be frank. I don't see the problem with bitcoin as you describe it. The reason the mining power is in China is because they produce the ASICS and they have cheap power. Centralized systems offer this accountability in theory. But rarely does this work in practice.
arisAlexis 9y ago
It's total misinformation that Bitcoin is controlled by a group of Chinese actually

granitosaurus 9y ago

Biggest instance only has 723 users. What went wrong with it? Because it looks rather nice.

icc97 9y ago

I did try to mention this before, with creating a Slack clone [0]. PHP and MySQL which is what this is written in are not very sexy but they're perfect for when you want the entire world to be able to use it. There's reasons why PHP has been so successful with WordPress and Facebook. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567271

bpicolo 9y ago
> for when you want the entire world to be able to use it True in 2004, today options are plentiful.
- rando444 9y ago
  I think that's the point. More options = more skills needed.
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  And in 2004, people said the same thing. Perl, Python, JSP, ASP, CF - people argued for and used all of those on major projects in 2004.
bausshf 9y ago
I love how you mention Facebook, yet Facebook moved away from traditionally PHP and made their own PHP engine and has a lot of native code in C++.
- icc97 9y ago
  They still got all their initial scale from PHP until they were so big that it was worth writing their own PHP engine. They would have had the same problem with Python or JavaScript.
  - bausshf 9y ago
    Indeed, but it's a classic example of why you shouldn't use something just because it's popular.

codyswann 9y ago

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our own bullshit that we fail to realize that the average Facebook user has no idea what "decentralized" means; nor cares that their personal data is being sold. This is another example of faux outrage that will pass with the next news cycle.

the-dude 9y ago
A whole new spin on a databreach/dataselling : Don't worry, we just decentralized your data!
bausshf 9y ago
Another thing is that this will only appeal to people who are generally tech-minded and not the average joe who uses social media. Most people who uses social media etc. doesn't want to download a lot of things, access should be fairly easy and painless without some sort of "guide", which is what I can see as the downfall for this "social network"
- bovermyer 9y ago
  When I nuked my Facebook account I didn't bother finding a replacement. The harder problem (for me) to solve is how to build up weak ties outside of social media.
- chrstphrknwtn 9y ago
  It's more to do with convenience. It was more convenient (and cheaper) to just get Napster / Limewire / Soul Seek / other p2p sharing app and download music than buy it online. In the beginning it was a tech-minded group, but the software got better and easier... and the communities grew. In short order it was not only tech-minded people who did this en-masse. If a platform is convenient for people to do X, it has a good change of also being popular.
fwdpropaganda 9y ago
"No one cares that their personal data is being sold" is a HN talking point. A lot of people care. Example: In the EU so many people care that legistators are taking measures to protect the people. Perhaps it's just the people around you that don't care...?

amelius 9y ago

They promise privacy, but in a decentralized system, do I have to trust every node admin?

tscs37 9y ago
You have to trust your node admin and the admin of any node you talk to (ie your friend's node)
- amelius 9y ago
  Obviously, I have no control over what nodes my friends are using. Can I whitelist/blacklist nodes? And how is the situation we're arriving at better than having a single party, in this case Facebook, who is to blame when things go sour?
  - Joeboy 9y ago
    From a personal privacy point of view it seems significantly worse to me, but I guess the positive spin would be that there isn't a single party that can simultaneously blackmail / breach the privacy of a billion people. Although my counter spin would be that in the event of one of these decentralized things going mainstream, a large player would end up being what gmail is for email.
  - tscs37 9y ago
    Atleast on mastodon you can blacklist. Whitelisting nodes is counterproductive to what federation is trying to achieve. A decentralized network means that if things go sour, the cost of switching is small, similar to an email account. If my mail provider fucks up, I point my domain to another one and I don't even bother.

daniel_iversen 9y ago

Not sure what decentralised means. Do the different hosted versions communicate together and sync users and data across each other? (like the blockchain etc. Because that would be fairly important).. Also a real sneaky pro move would be initially to allow people to "sign up" via Facebook :) - once they're registered and the network has their email address then Facebook can become useless, just lowers the barrier to entry and its ironic that Facebook can be used to replace itself.

daveid 9y ago
Friendica is part of the fediverse, that is, "federated universe." The model of decentralization is "federation" here. Friendica is interoperable with Mastodon, GNU social, etc.
Gaelan 9y ago
Looks like Friendica (along with most of these other "decentralized social media" things) is federated, not distributed in the way that Bitcoin is. They work kind of like email: each person picks one service to use, but users can follow each other across services.

jiri 9y ago

Just thinking, who should provide this decentralized service for common users? Someone who already provide them email? Their internet providers? Family?

niahmiah 9y ago

There will be no company to be outraged at, when all of your data is siphoned... progress!

daniel_iversen 9y ago
Yes there's a treasure trove just waiting to be mined and abused unfortunately.

okket 9y ago

Is this thing really decentralised (as in e.g. IPFS) or just federated (like Mail/SMTP)? The website does not offer many details.

tscs37 9y ago
Federation is a form of decentralization. What you're looking for is federated vs peer-to-peer decentralization. Friendi.ca is federated and decentralized.

eatinggrin 9y ago

PHP and MySQL...

darkstar999 9y ago
...successfully runs a vast majority of web services on the internet.
- eatinggrin 9y ago
  I always love the argument that PHP runs 70% of the web. Water covers 70% of earth surface, therefore I should build my house on water. http://i.imgur.com/Fp5pw9o.png http://i.imgur.com/Fp5pw9o.png
  - darkstar999 9y ago
    That's a horrible analogy.
    - eatinggrin 9y ago
      Let me guess, you're a PHP developer.
      - corobo 9y ago
        At least show your working on why it's bad. Currently you're coming off as someone that's heard something is bad and repeating it without verifying
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        eatinggrin 9y ago
        I wish I'd heard the bad about PHP before I worked in it; would have saved me the first year of my life in development. Also, most PHP developers are complete morons. And I won't apologize for generalizing.

mtgx 9y ago

Tresorit also announced an end-to-end encrypted social network where the company can't see the users' content. I think that's probably the angle privacy-focused Facebook alternatives will need to take. Unfortunately, they chose a strange-looking Hungarian name for it, so probably nobody will ever pay attention to it because of that: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/prevaat-the-privacy-focused-social-network https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/prevaat-the-privacy-focus...

dasanman 9y ago

I can not see me using this ever

d3ckard 9y ago

I don't know about others, but I don't care if my social media platform is centralized or not. I use FB mainly as news feed(I don't even get that many friends' posts), but I can easily migrate that. What I need is nothing more that somehow fancy address book. FB gives me a way to contact people I don't keep strong relationships with, it lets me organize an event with those people relatively pain-free and it allows me to keep at least a bit in touch. That's all. Give me just those basic features, pour some serious privacy management over that and I will be happy to lead the way switching. I don't care about fancy tech in this case.

Double_a_92 9y ago
> I use FB mainly as news feed How did you manage to do that? My feed it full of crap like: Silly memes in local languages, Weird shared videos of something cute or funny, Ads, Game invites, Photos from people I don't really know... I basically only have facebook to kinda keep the contact data of old school friends. I don't even talk to them. (And for dating. Contacting people unsolicitedly but still in a friendly and respectful way works much better than going on online dating sites...)
- equalunique 9y ago
  If you join FB groups related to things that you care about, then there is a good chance you will see more news related to the things you care about too.

kodablah 9y ago

> Friendica runs on PHP with MySQL as a database. If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. Not the biggest fan of the stack, but no problem. These networks are getting closer. Now create a desktop installer that: has its own web server + php + mysql pieces embedded and execute on their own ports on startup. (I say I don't like the stack because I'd prefer something that can all be statically compiled). Make sure the desktop can easily setup/change/admin this self host and can guide or automatically dyndns and NAT bust. Or if you want to do it right, embed tor, and create a hidden service for me (an ephemeral v3 one would be nice, maybe from a deterministically derived key from a few factors, I'll figure out how to give the unwieldy name to my friends). We have to make self hosting as easy as running mspaint if we're going to tackle this problem right.

pmlnr 9y ago
You're more or less describing https://github.com/ssbc/patchwork https://github.com/ssbc/patchwork
- kodablah 9y ago
  Sure. If I were to give feedback, I'd say it needs a better landing and a user guide for the app (as opposed to the protocol inundated with dev jargon). Not really gonna send my mother a GitHub releases page; she needs to be the intended audience. I guess I could send her http://dinosaur.is/patchwork-downloader/ http://dinosaur.is/patchwork-downloader/ and ask her to read https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/getting-started.html https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/getting-started.html and/or https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/#quick-start https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/#quick-start but even that has friction. Also, I'd like to see it shipped with Tor and just hit a checkbox (at runtime not install time) for anonymity instead of having to manage my own daemon. But this is very close, yes.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Agreed. I'll add that my main issue with Patchwork is that from what I can tell it's pretty much impossible to develop for it without using Node.js. I really think that for this to take off, it needs to focus on 'developer happiness' right now. There's a solid client, a relatively vibrant and activist community, but too little in the way of (relatively) inexperienced devs like myself to build apps on top of. this is especially problematic because the Patchwork client, while impressive, is not something I enjoy using. I'm just itching to build my own alternative clients, as well as apps that run on the SSB protocol, but I can't unless I force myself to get back into the Node ecosystem. Another crucial issue, I find, is the inability to have multiple devices linked (by whatever means) to the same user. The impression I get is that the community is split on either fixing that, or adding more tools to deal with community management. I find that worrying because I've had multiple experiences with communities where ~50% was overly focused on 'preserving what is', and none of those experiences ended up in any kind of success. For the time being I'm still excited about Patchwork, and looking for ways to positively contribute (contrary to this post), but I get too much of a 'sixties imploding commune' vibe to feel comfortable wasting my energy, for now. EDIT: all this sounds somewhat negative, and my apologies for that. But I got and am really excited about the core proposition of the whole thing and just worry a lot about its viability. I'd really love to hear where I'm wrong, or how I could contribute without having to deal with the community kerfuffles that I am not too interested in. It's like CouchSurfing in reverse.

mcs_ 9y ago

Is the "Rebuild from scratch the same thing but using another paradigm" a good option to improve social? I don't have any Facebook accounts but after 15 years programming stuff, I don't see the copy/paste as a powerful solution. Also, distribution is not really the problem here. From architecture point of view Facebook is distributed. The problem is the need of store huge amount of data in the cloud and pretending that to be free.

grinsekatze 9y ago

I think many people that are moving away from Facebook move away from social networks in general. Personally, I am not interested at all in a Facebook replacement. I gave a couple a try, but quickly realized that spending time on these social networks is even more boring than Facebook, especially if none of your friends are on there.. and therefor a total waste of my time. If I need to communicate with friends I do this “directly” via WhatsApp or email.

pmlnr 9y ago
I don't know who's downvoting this; this is an actual trend I'm experiencing as well. Those who leave facebook tend to leave for good, and not replace it with anything. I'm yet to decide if it's good or not; I definitely want homepages (not strictly blogs) back, hence see https://indieweb.org https://indieweb.org , but I know most will just simply walk away from social media completely.
kodablah 9y ago
> I think many people that are moving away from Facebook move away from social networks in general [...] If I need to communicate with friends I do this "directly" via WhatsApp or email. I'd like to see the line disappear and I'd like to see WhatsApp or email be considered social networking. I think a well built app can have both of those features in addition to the feed+post+comment style of Facebook. From the user perspective, what are all these communication mediums but just "place" configuration? Edit: here're some early scratch grpc services I have been toying with to abstract different communication forms: https://github.com/cretz/yukup/tree/6793fb2b281e4ea7cda1fe5b9f4a10c487e99712/yukup/service/pb https://github.com/cretz/yukup/tree/6793fb2b281e4ea7cda1fe5b...
- freehunter 9y ago
  Seriously, if Snapchat is considered a social network, IRC/email/WhatsApp/iMessage/Hangouts/SMS is a social network too.
- firethief 9y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure Facebook could build WhatsApp into a trustworthy social networking platform.

tw1010 9y ago

Man, people are working hard on this idea still. I like the persistence, but something tells me the ambition aught to in most cases be directed towards something less of a winner-take-all hollywood style success market, and more towards something better placed on the effort-to-returns spectrum.

pmlnr 9y ago

This is yet another platform solution. The problem with platform solutions is that they still present one and only one choice of software. Decentralized systems can only take off if they are built around standardized protocols - this is why email works. The choice of smtp servers to run, email clients to choose from, that's what's making it resilient. Ideas like ActivityPub, webmentions, microsub, micropub, while not strictly protocols - all on top of HTTP - could allow us to build real decentralisation, with the weapon of choice on platform, language, client - this is what's truly needed. Most of the platforms like Diaspora, Friendica, Mastodon, can, could, or already have adopted some of these, thus making a good step towards true federation, when anything can talk to anything. EDIT ... but the emphasis right now should be on the glue, the protocols connecting them, not just only the software implementing it.

MarceColl 9y ago
While I agree that the emphasis should be on the protocols traction is important and most people see the platform. It can also show some deficiencies of the protocols which is always good. I think most of these platforms do understand the need for true federation. For example Mastodon can now talk and interact with PeerTube through ActivityPub, GNU Social and Mastodon can completely interoperate too.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  I'm deeply aware how important UX and the actual interfaces are; however, there are still some underdeveloped building blocks, which are not getting enough attention. It is true that user interfaces are just as important, but half-baked solutions might do more harm, than good, resulting in disappointment in those who'd be willing to try them out.
  - kitotik 9y ago
    Leading with UX could be a good (the best?) way to both aid adoption by the normal folks AND let a sane set of requirements emerge that steers the solutions to the most desired set of problems. As much as most people on HN would like to have these protocols specified ‘correctly’, this feels like a situation where the perfect is the enemy of the good.

zzzeek 9y ago

No "servers" to download and host. We have a "server" already it's called email.

einsty 9y ago

Seems that the bright minds here behind friendica could be helpful in the MIT Solid project being run by Tim Berners Lee. And/or they could be a SOLID app themselves:

LinkToTheAss 9y ago

After multiple facebook breaks (and now im off for more than a year) I must say, that I dont see any usage for social media platforms anymore, that work like facebook or google plus. All this egocentric stuff is based on instagram and user created news is based on reddit or twitter. Communication is based on telegram, signal etc. So what the hell do I need FB for? I dont need it and i dont see a reason to switch to an other social media platform like friendica or diaspora anymore. But maybe im just getting old :D

zeveb 9y ago

Sounds interesting, but I don't think PHP & MySQL are a good stack. While it's possible to write secure software in PHP (I'd probably trust the Paragon IE) guys to do it), it's not very likely. As for MySQL — as far as I'm concerned there is essentially no reason to choose it over PostgreSQL, and a project which does so is thus instantly suspect. If they've made an error that grave, what other errors have they made? It'd be like someone choosing Windows as a server OS: there's a small chance it was a good decision, and a far, far greater probability that it was the result of a toxic engineering & management culture.

nix0n 9y ago
> If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. The LAMP stack, for all its problems (you're not wrong) is the bog standard and is easy to rent. If you'd rather use Rails, check out Diaspora: the two systems federate together, anyway.
seanf 9y ago
Why do you consider choosing MySQL over Postgres a grave error? There are some cool features in Postgres. I am going to learn more about partial indexes, that looks useful! But there is plenty of precedent for large, successful MySQL projects. Uber, for example, switched from PostgreSQL to MySQL in 2016. https://eng.uber.com/mysql-migration/ https://eng.uber.com/mysql-migration/
- zeveb 9y ago
  > Why do you consider choosing MySQL over Postgres a grave error? Because PostgreSQL focuses on correctness & MySQL focuses on performance & ease of use. With a database, I want correctness first, and performance & ease of use second. Many projects chose MySQL because it was easy to use & somewhat faster, and they didn't realise how broken it was initially. I am sure that many projects failed due to MySQL, and are now lost to history. Choosing MySQL over PostgreSQL betokened the kind of culture which chooses convenience over correctness, which is not the kind of culture I wish to associate myself with. Over time, MySQL added more & more correctness, and PostgreSQL got faster & faster. As it turned out, PostgreSQL with the right performance flags is faster than MySQL with the right correctness flags. In the specific case of Uber, it sounds like they're essentially using MySQL as the underlying storage mechanism for a key-value store, and are able to build the mechanisms they need atop it. Also, PostgreSQL less efficient for their usage patterns than MySQL. That makes sense, and seems like a sensible engineering decision. 'Essentially no reason to choose [MySQL] over PostgreSQL' doesn't mean no reason at all. It's kinda like how sometimes it makes sense to write an inner loop in assembly, but it extraordinarily rarely makes sense to write a word processor in assembly in 2018.

Xeoncross 9y ago

Thank you Friendica team! We need more work in this space! > Friendica runs on PHP with MySQL as a database. If you can run WordPress, you can run Friendica. This is a problem. I picture the future decentralized systems being a self-contained system that runs on your device (desktop or mobile) as well as servers for more technical people. To this end the only scripting language that can pull this off is Javascript. Ruby and PHP are not needed or useful in this space. To anyone that reads this, please take a couple weeks to learn Node (+electron or react-native), Go, or (hardest) Rust.

darkstar999 9y ago
In what way is installing and running node different than installing and running PHP or any other? Anything that ran like this would have to be contanerized anyway, meaning literally any stack would work.
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  I wasn't talking about running a node server application. I used "node" to refer to the v8 engine being embedded into an electron or mobile app which Ruby and PHP can't do (at least with any level of ease).
russdpale 9y ago
No!! God not electron. Please no more electron apps. This seems pretty good but haven't used it yet. https://proton-native.js.org https://proton-native.js.org
parvenu74 9y ago
This makes me think of Docker containers but for desktop rather than server use. Let the language/stack be Elixir/Phoenix if that's what the devs want to use; as long as I can pull down an app container that runs on my machine then the need to rely on a least-common-denominator language goes away and we're all better off.
- Xeoncross 9y ago

Taek 9y ago

Is there a whitepaper? Difficult to analyze the system and decide whether it's going to do a good job, be safe against adversaries and manipulation, etc. without seeing some sort of high level description of how it works. Knowing it uses php and mysql doesn't tell me anything about the actual application.

prophesi 9y ago

These decentralized social networks could benefit from that statically-linked web app post [0]. Sure, it's pretty simply to get a LAMP stack up and running to host a Friendica node. But a simple executable would lower the barrier even further! I think ease-of-use/access, along with a well thought out federation protocol, will be critical for these networks to replace Facebook/Twitter/etc. As it is now, I can only get my techie friends to try these out. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16765020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16765020

beders 9y ago

Another site that is doing their marketing all wrong. My Dad couldn't give a rat's ass if the network was 'Decentralized' or that 'Relationships can be made across any compatible system' All he wants is see pictures of his grand daughters and post funny gifs to his friends. With a signup that is so simple even my err Dad could do it! With a process to move away from Facebook to the new platform (and keep all his stuff) that is so simple my Dad could do it.

granitosaurus 9y ago
Why on earth would you think that target priority would be middle-age dads for any product? First you target at enthusiasts then you can expand do nice hip groups or teens/students.