6 ms·

Brain-stimulation trials get personal to lift depression

78 points by lainon 9y ago

AlphaWeaver 9y ago
I question what safety measures they are putting in place to prevent some sort of negative feedback loop... I wonder if this has the potential issue with functioning properly based on a loop that compounds and compounds on itself.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
  Can you explain what you mean a little more? Are you just saying, your worried about someone getting more and more depressed by using the device?
  - AlphaWeaver 9y ago
    Not necessarily... I can just imagine a scenario where the "algorithm" reacts based off of some stimulus in the brain and applies stimulation in an attempt to counteract that... If there's so much as a small flaw and the stimulation it applies in return causes the original stimulus to worsen instead of be relieved, I could imagine the reaction from the algorithm continuing to make the situation worse if not carefully designed.
starshadowx2 9y ago
While I'm interested and excited by this, it gives me some "Terminal Man" vibes.
lemonberry 9y ago
This is interesting. On a recent Kevin Rose podcast he and his guest talked about targeted treatment for ADHD, dementia, etc. using video games. At one point they also discussed people using self-built gadgets to stimulate their own brain using electric current ( they do not recommend it though ). https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Adam-Gazzaley https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Adam-Gazzaley As an aside, I've found meditation to be very helpful in treating my non-clinical depression. It's also one of the key tools I use to help with my addiction/alcoholism issues. And please, if you're thinking of taking your own life reach out to someone. https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org
- chimen 9y ago
  Would love to be able to meditate. My brain just goes all over the place and it feels like I'm wasting my time.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - sincerely 9y ago
    It definitely felt like that for me as well in the beginning but sticking with it helped me get better at it :)
  - losteric 9y ago
    For mindful meditation, that's not necessarily a bad thing... just focus on catching the thoughts and letting them go. I have a highly productive ADD so a voice recorder really helped with this step (record the idea to clear my mind). It can be helpful to start mindful meditation by listening to music or looking at a mostly static scene (nature, city, picture, whatever - no TV). From there, maybe experiment with silent meditation. I got there by focusing on successively simple stimuli (city -> picture -> mental picture -> simple shapes -> dot -> nothing).
  - needz 9y ago
    I would highly recommend a guided meditation app such as https://www.headspace.com/ https://www.headspace.com/ Best decision I've made this year
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Insight Timer is also nice, and free.
  - Kluny 9y ago
    That's kind of what it is when you start. It's like working a muscle, you have to start with really light weights or you just get exhausted and discouraged. Like, start with a timer set for two minutes and work your way up one minute at a time.
ncv 9y ago
A few years ago while working on my undergrad I helped proctor a study involving a similar technology--transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS)--and it's impact on working memory. Although neither the tech nor the desired outcome in OP's article is identical to my undergrad project, the researchers are likely facing similar challenges which seem universal for low-current brain stimulation experiments: - Effects are measurable but very very small - Frequent stimulation is required to achieve the desired effect - The desired effect diminishes over time This seems really promising, particularly because they're changing the treatment for specific patients rather than using a one-size-fits-all model. I hope their trials go well.
- sivex 9y ago
  When I was doing research with TMS the problem we were trying to solve was focusing the magnetic field to a small point in order to target specific areas of the brain instead of stimulating a larger area. There was a lot of research being done to do this, but that seemed to be the biggest technological hurdle to the technology in addition to what you noted.
spaceman1331 9y ago
the depression industry is a for-profit industry based on bullying it is quite sick
- RhysU 9y ago
  My father had DBS implants to attempt to address Essential Tremor symptoms. This works for some people. It did not for him. I would hate to see a depression-related tuning phase similar to what was required before they realized the implants couldn't improve the shakiness in his hands.
- outlace 9y ago
  That's not a very nuanced position to hold about something very complex.
leggomylibro 9y ago
I once saw a presentation at a BCI conference about using DBS to treat depression. They basically installed a 'happy button' in someone's brain, and it worked. On the one hand, it's sort of scary. On the other hand, what are you supposed to do when nothing, not art nor work nor drugs nor thought, does anything to ameliorate the pain?
- msla 9y ago
  > On the one hand, it's sort of scary. I can see both sides of this, at once, like I'm looking at an ambiguous image: duck, or rabbit? On one hand, it's absurd: "Electrochemical system is changed by electricity! Shocker! Be afeared'n'affrighted!" The brain is a physical system, your personality is a result of the behavior of that system, so changing the physical system is going to change the personality. It's a more controlled version of Phineas Gage and the railroad spike. (Plus, dirty little secret: Electroconvulsive therapy works. It has nasty side-effects, but it makes depression go away rather quickly. So the basic idea of chasing away mental problems by shocking brain tissue is not new, despite a decades-long effort on the part of artists to make people think ECT is simply meaningless torture.) On the other hand, I can see how this would be challenging to someone who finds emotional states deeply meaningful, especially if they (as most people who look for "meaningful emotional states" seem to) find sad states more meaningful than happy ones. It's the myth of the happy pill, by which I mean the myth that depression is this wonderful, meaningful Long, Dark Night Of The Soul and that taking something to fight it is "making you feel better" in a coercive sense, and depriving you of that meaning, and, possibly, preventing you from getting to the root of the problem, which must needs be done through talk therapy. My conclusion is this: Emotions in and of themselves aren't meaningful, treating symptoms doesn't mean you can't also look for root causes, and, sometimes, an organic dysfunction is the root cause, as opposed to something you can talk out.
  - johnfn 9y ago
    Even if the root of someone's depression were something that could be talked out, what depressed person wouldn't want to work that out while not depressed?
amelius 9y ago
This reminds me of this article [1]. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d739jq/can-we-stimulate-our-brains-to-trigger-on-demand-orgasms https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d739jq/can-we-sti...

78 points by lainon 9y ago

I question what safety measures they are putting in place to prevent some sort of negative feedback loop... I wonder if this has the potential issue with functioning properly based on a loop that compounds and compounds on itself.

ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
Can you explain what you mean a little more? Are you just saying, your worried about someone getting more and more depressed by using the device?
- AlphaWeaver 9y ago
  Not necessarily... I can just imagine a scenario where the "algorithm" reacts based off of some stimulus in the brain and applies stimulation in an attempt to counteract that... If there's so much as a small flaw and the stimulation it applies in return causes the original stimulus to worsen instead of be relieved, I could imagine the reaction from the algorithm continuing to make the situation worse if not carefully designed.

starshadowx2 9y ago

While I'm interested and excited by this, it gives me some "Terminal Man" vibes.

lemonberry 9y ago

This is interesting. On a recent Kevin Rose podcast he and his guest talked about targeted treatment for ADHD, dementia, etc. using video games. At one point they also discussed people using self-built gadgets to stimulate their own brain using electric current ( they do not recommend it though ). https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Adam-Gazzaley https://www.kevinrose.com/single-post/Adam-Gazzaley As an aside, I've found meditation to be very helpful in treating my non-clinical depression. It's also one of the key tools I use to help with my addiction/alcoholism issues. And please, if you're thinking of taking your own life reach out to someone. https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

chimen 9y ago
Would love to be able to meditate. My brain just goes all over the place and it feels like I'm wasting my time.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- sincerely 9y ago
  It definitely felt like that for me as well in the beginning but sticking with it helped me get better at it :)
- losteric 9y ago
  For mindful meditation, that's not necessarily a bad thing... just focus on catching the thoughts and letting them go. I have a highly productive ADD so a voice recorder really helped with this step (record the idea to clear my mind). It can be helpful to start mindful meditation by listening to music or looking at a mostly static scene (nature, city, picture, whatever - no TV). From there, maybe experiment with silent meditation. I got there by focusing on successively simple stimuli (city -> picture -> mental picture -> simple shapes -> dot -> nothing).
- needz 9y ago
  I would highly recommend a guided meditation app such as https://www.headspace.com/ https://www.headspace.com/ Best decision I've made this year
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Insight Timer is also nice, and free.
- Kluny 9y ago
  That's kind of what it is when you start. It's like working a muscle, you have to start with really light weights or you just get exhausted and discouraged. Like, start with a timer set for two minutes and work your way up one minute at a time.

ncv 9y ago

A few years ago while working on my undergrad I helped proctor a study involving a similar technology--transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS)--and it's impact on working memory. Although neither the tech nor the desired outcome in OP's article is identical to my undergrad project, the researchers are likely facing similar challenges which seem universal for low-current brain stimulation experiments: - Effects are measurable but very very small - Frequent stimulation is required to achieve the desired effect - The desired effect diminishes over time This seems really promising, particularly because they're changing the treatment for specific patients rather than using a one-size-fits-all model. I hope their trials go well.

sivex 9y ago
When I was doing research with TMS the problem we were trying to solve was focusing the magnetic field to a small point in order to target specific areas of the brain instead of stimulating a larger area. There was a lot of research being done to do this, but that seemed to be the biggest technological hurdle to the technology in addition to what you noted.

spaceman1331 9y ago

the depression industry is a for-profit industry based on bullying it is quite sick

RhysU 9y ago
My father had DBS implants to attempt to address Essential Tremor symptoms. This works for some people. It did not for him. I would hate to see a depression-related tuning phase similar to what was required before they realized the implants couldn't improve the shakiness in his hands.
outlace 9y ago
That's not a very nuanced position to hold about something very complex.

leggomylibro 9y ago

I once saw a presentation at a BCI conference about using DBS to treat depression. They basically installed a 'happy button' in someone's brain, and it worked. On the one hand, it's sort of scary. On the other hand, what are you supposed to do when nothing, not art nor work nor drugs nor thought, does anything to ameliorate the pain?

msla 9y ago
> On the one hand, it's sort of scary. I can see both sides of this, at once, like I'm looking at an ambiguous image: duck, or rabbit? On one hand, it's absurd: "Electrochemical system is changed by electricity! Shocker! Be afeared'n'affrighted!" The brain is a physical system, your personality is a result of the behavior of that system, so changing the physical system is going to change the personality. It's a more controlled version of Phineas Gage and the railroad spike. (Plus, dirty little secret: Electroconvulsive therapy works. It has nasty side-effects, but it makes depression go away rather quickly. So the basic idea of chasing away mental problems by shocking brain tissue is not new, despite a decades-long effort on the part of artists to make people think ECT is simply meaningless torture.) On the other hand, I can see how this would be challenging to someone who finds emotional states deeply meaningful, especially if they (as most people who look for "meaningful emotional states" seem to) find sad states more meaningful than happy ones. It's the myth of the happy pill, by which I mean the myth that depression is this wonderful, meaningful Long, Dark Night Of The Soul and that taking something to fight it is "making you feel better" in a coercive sense, and depriving you of that meaning, and, possibly, preventing you from getting to the root of the problem, which must needs be done through talk therapy. My conclusion is this: Emotions in and of themselves aren't meaningful, treating symptoms doesn't mean you can't also look for root causes, and, sometimes, an organic dysfunction is the root cause, as opposed to something you can talk out.
- johnfn 9y ago
  Even if the root of someone's depression were something that could be talked out, what depressed person wouldn't want to work that out while not depressed?

amelius 9y ago

This reminds me of this article [1]. [1] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d739jq/can-we-stimulate-our-brains-to-trigger-on-demand-orgasms https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d739jq/can-we-sti...