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It's countries filled with uneducated people who don't understand how to evaluate information that are vulnerable to this kind of propaganda. I think a more fun

It's countries filled with uneducated people who don't understand how to evaluate information that are vulnerable to this kind of propaganda. I think a more fundamental long-term solution is to fix the education and critical thinking problem. After you've done that, you can allow free speech, and democracy for that matter. By default, people aren't competent to safely handle free information because they're so easily manipulated into violence. For example, see every war ever. In any war, both sides believe they're right, but they can't both be right, so one or more is always wrong. They just can't see it because they can't process information safely.

ACow_Adonis 9y ago
Why can't they all be right? It's not like there's a big man in the sky telling everyone that wars must only be fought between two opposing sides with identical motives on a logically comparable continuum. It's not even like wars must even be based on positions that can be meaningfully called right or wrong. Or that most wars can be meaningfully interpreted as "two sides". Even within the allies of world war 2, you would have a variety of factions and motivations, as well as minority players with diametrically opposed views and beliefs.
buvanshak 9y ago
> I think a more fundamental long-term solution is to fix the education and critical thinking problem. And who is going to do that? Governments have no incentive to do that because lack of critical thinking in citizens is a major factor to ensure they they can get away with exploitation and prevent them from revolting..
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  And even if they try, because there is economic incentive (educated population -> better competition on the global market), people will still accuse them of pushing propaganda and brainwashing, and they'll fight the changes.
- fsloth 9y ago
  "And who is going to do that?" Private companies try to offer primary education in some developing countries. Since the problem is not only lack of resources, but lack of infrastructure to use those resources (no trained teachers etc.) this is a plausible path forward. I have no statistics of the results. Is it just one more scheme to funnel aid money into investors pockets? I have no idea. https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21660063-where-governments-are-failing-provide-youngsters-decent-education-private-sector https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21660063-where-gover...
  - buvanshak 9y ago
    Currently all educational system teaches students to respect and obey authority. So right now, in our society, people first obey, then only they ll think to question the authority..The primary education from private companies is probably going to be the same. Teaching students critical thinking, means they are encouraged and taught to ask questions first, before obeying. Governments like a population that just would work obediently and pay taxes without questioning, than a populace that ask questions at every turn. So they would prevent the kind of education that can lead to such a population...
    - fsloth 9y ago
      "Currently all educational system teaches students to respect and obey authority." Well, all public education is based on the Prussian template so what would you expect :) But seriously... I think the tendency of the masses to follow the perceived leader is a facet of the human psychology rather than the result of a nefarious scheme. From what I can tell of the education of my kids in Finland, the teachers really try to walk a tight rope between having small kids behave in an orderly manner as a group and not to stifle individual creativity and will to learn. You need some authority and and respect of it in schools. Otherwise it would turn into a lord of the flies remake. I presume your critique is directed towards overbearing, paternalistic unnecessary harsh discipline. I think the amount of this depends on the country you are discussing and and you need to be more specific. All primary education systems are not alike.
anigbrowl 9y ago
That would be all of them. There's plenty of people right here in the United States who think Infowars is a real news outlet.
sova 9y ago
Do you mind if I e-mail you some writings? I'd like to get your opinion on them. I agree with what you say, and I'm brainstorming solutions to the lack of education and critical thinking / bs filtering [first at home, eventually abroad]
ace_of_spades 9y ago
Reality is often more insidious than that... Most issues are (sadly) not of a binary nature but created through misunderstanding and different evaluation functions between parties. In general, every position has some „truth“ or „value“ to it that other positions are not able to subsume. For example, immigration in Europe... some people want to make it easier others want to curb it completely. Who is right? There are arguments for both sides and your individual preferences and experiences determine which one you will find more convincing. There is no binary right or wrong over all cases.
- jstanley 9y ago
  I can't tell you which side is wrong, but I can tell you which side is trying to oppress certain groups of people just because they're foreign.
  - ace_of_spades 9y ago
    If you are referring to the immigration example, it’s not that easy. By digging into this position you won’t really be able to reach people on the other side who on some level at least - do - have some justifiable grievances with some aspects of immigration. I am staunchly pro immigration but I realize it’s a big challenge for some people and to move forward we should realize that simple heuristics are not going to be the easiest way to the place where we all want to be.
    - throwaway-hn123 9y ago
      Concern trolling. Nice.
Normal_gaussian 9y ago
> They can't both be right And this is where you are lacking critical thinking. Single issue wars and issues with only two sides are rare enough that I'm not sure any have ever existed. Its definitely possible for both sides to be right (and wrong) and its definitely normal that educated people won't agree no matter how long they discuss an issue.
- roenxi 9y ago
  I'll permit myself a moment of extreme cynicism and say that two warring parties can both be right even on a single issue. "I would be better off with that bloke's resources". I'm not sold on the idea that wars are fought for ideals. There is a lot of coincidental wealth transfer when countries fight. Why else travel long distances to kill people you don't know?
dragonwriter 9y ago
> In any war, both sides believe they're right, but they can't both be right If you assume that there is an objective, external moral “right” defined in a very particular kind of way, this may be true, but that hidden premise is far from universally aceepted.
threatofrain 9y ago
If you lack access to critical facts, then critical thinking can only do so much. Trust may be the best thing you have.
troels 9y ago
> It's countries filled with uneducated people who don't understand how to evaluate information that are vulnerable to this kind of propaganda. I see plenty of similar sentiments in my facebook feed.
rumcajz 9y ago
You'd have to solve the language barrier first. Burmese speakers will not be able to read stuff written in Rohingya language.
maxwin 9y ago
I am from Myanmar. I have many doctor friends and friends with a degree from US having this kind of bias or hatred and trusting all the fake facebook information they want to believe. It is not about education. It is the same in the US. People will believe what they want to believe.
vikascoder 9y ago
I would say vanilla education had nothing to do with, if it's that what you mean. Daily, I come across extremely well college educated folks ( including engineers) that are under the sway of Facebook and WhatsApp fake forwards. They were swayed by Radio, TV and Newspapers before, now the medium has changed. The story is the same in the USA or Europe or Myanmar. There are no special critical thinking courses out there where people sign up and learn to "think effectively". People have been swayed by propaganda before and they will continue to be. Saying "education" in this context feels like you are leaning towards saying that only if the people in these "third world uneducated country" learn better, this wouldn't happen. That's not right is it?
thriftwy 9y ago
> After you've done that, you can allow free speech Who are you do "allow" or "disallow" free speech? "Disallowing" free spech is actually a human rights violation. Isn't it? So what you're doing here is you're providing weasel moral grounds for human rights abuse.

ACow_Adonis 9y ago

Why can't they all be right? It's not like there's a big man in the sky telling everyone that wars must only be fought between two opposing sides with identical motives on a logically comparable continuum. It's not even like wars must even be based on positions that can be meaningfully called right or wrong. Or that most wars can be meaningfully interpreted as "two sides". Even within the allies of world war 2, you would have a variety of factions and motivations, as well as minority players with diametrically opposed views and beliefs.

buvanshak 9y ago

> I think a more fundamental long-term solution is to fix the education and critical thinking problem. And who is going to do that? Governments have no incentive to do that because lack of critical thinking in citizens is a major factor to ensure they they can get away with exploitation and prevent them from revolting..

TeMPOraL 9y ago
And even if they try, because there is economic incentive (educated population -> better competition on the global market), people will still accuse them of pushing propaganda and brainwashing, and they'll fight the changes.
fsloth 9y ago
"And who is going to do that?" Private companies try to offer primary education in some developing countries. Since the problem is not only lack of resources, but lack of infrastructure to use those resources (no trained teachers etc.) this is a plausible path forward. I have no statistics of the results. Is it just one more scheme to funnel aid money into investors pockets? I have no idea. https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21660063-where-governments-are-failing-provide-youngsters-decent-education-private-sector https://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21660063-where-gover...
- buvanshak 9y ago
  Currently all educational system teaches students to respect and obey authority. So right now, in our society, people first obey, then only they ll think to question the authority..The primary education from private companies is probably going to be the same. Teaching students critical thinking, means they are encouraged and taught to ask questions first, before obeying. Governments like a population that just would work obediently and pay taxes without questioning, than a populace that ask questions at every turn. So they would prevent the kind of education that can lead to such a population...
  - fsloth 9y ago
    "Currently all educational system teaches students to respect and obey authority." Well, all public education is based on the Prussian template so what would you expect :) But seriously... I think the tendency of the masses to follow the perceived leader is a facet of the human psychology rather than the result of a nefarious scheme. From what I can tell of the education of my kids in Finland, the teachers really try to walk a tight rope between having small kids behave in an orderly manner as a group and not to stifle individual creativity and will to learn. You need some authority and and respect of it in schools. Otherwise it would turn into a lord of the flies remake. I presume your critique is directed towards overbearing, paternalistic unnecessary harsh discipline. I think the amount of this depends on the country you are discussing and and you need to be more specific. All primary education systems are not alike.

anigbrowl 9y ago

That would be all of them. There's plenty of people right here in the United States who think Infowars is a real news outlet.

sova 9y ago

Do you mind if I e-mail you some writings? I'd like to get your opinion on them. I agree with what you say, and I'm brainstorming solutions to the lack of education and critical thinking / bs filtering [first at home, eventually abroad]

ace_of_spades 9y ago

Reality is often more insidious than that... Most issues are (sadly) not of a binary nature but created through misunderstanding and different evaluation functions between parties. In general, every position has some „truth“ or „value“ to it that other positions are not able to subsume. For example, immigration in Europe... some people want to make it easier others want to curb it completely. Who is right? There are arguments for both sides and your individual preferences and experiences determine which one you will find more convincing. There is no binary right or wrong over all cases.

jstanley 9y ago
I can't tell you which side is wrong, but I can tell you which side is trying to oppress certain groups of people just because they're foreign.
- ace_of_spades 9y ago
  If you are referring to the immigration example, it’s not that easy. By digging into this position you won’t really be able to reach people on the other side who on some level at least - do - have some justifiable grievances with some aspects of immigration. I am staunchly pro immigration but I realize it’s a big challenge for some people and to move forward we should realize that simple heuristics are not going to be the easiest way to the place where we all want to be.
  - throwaway-hn123 9y ago
    Concern trolling. Nice.

Normal_gaussian 9y ago

> They can't both be right And this is where you are lacking critical thinking. Single issue wars and issues with only two sides are rare enough that I'm not sure any have ever existed. Its definitely possible for both sides to be right (and wrong) and its definitely normal that educated people won't agree no matter how long they discuss an issue.

roenxi 9y ago
I'll permit myself a moment of extreme cynicism and say that two warring parties can both be right even on a single issue. "I would be better off with that bloke's resources". I'm not sold on the idea that wars are fought for ideals. There is a lot of coincidental wealth transfer when countries fight. Why else travel long distances to kill people you don't know?

dragonwriter 9y ago

> In any war, both sides believe they're right, but they can't both be right If you assume that there is an objective, external moral “right” defined in a very particular kind of way, this may be true, but that hidden premise is far from universally aceepted.

threatofrain 9y ago

If you lack access to critical facts, then critical thinking can only do so much. Trust may be the best thing you have.

troels 9y ago

> It's countries filled with uneducated people who don't understand how to evaluate information that are vulnerable to this kind of propaganda. I see plenty of similar sentiments in my facebook feed.

rumcajz 9y ago

You'd have to solve the language barrier first. Burmese speakers will not be able to read stuff written in Rohingya language.

maxwin 9y ago

I am from Myanmar. I have many doctor friends and friends with a degree from US having this kind of bias or hatred and trusting all the fake facebook information they want to believe. It is not about education. It is the same in the US. People will believe what they want to believe.

vikascoder 9y ago

I would say vanilla education had nothing to do with, if it's that what you mean. Daily, I come across extremely well college educated folks ( including engineers) that are under the sway of Facebook and WhatsApp fake forwards. They were swayed by Radio, TV and Newspapers before, now the medium has changed. The story is the same in the USA or Europe or Myanmar. There are no special critical thinking courses out there where people sign up and learn to "think effectively". People have been swayed by propaganda before and they will continue to be. Saying "education" in this context feels like you are leaning towards saying that only if the people in these "third world uneducated country" learn better, this wouldn't happen. That's not right is it?

thriftwy 9y ago

> After you've done that, you can allow free speech Who are you do "allow" or "disallow" free speech? "Disallowing" free spech is actually a human rights violation. Isn't it? So what you're doing here is you're providing weasel moral grounds for human rights abuse.