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It’s a long essay, but maybe the YouTube link should appear at the top. Because when you click play and try to listen, you might find yourself feeling quite lik
by zaroth 9y ago
It’s a long essay, but maybe the YouTube link should appear at the top. Because when you click play and try to listen, you might find yourself feeling quite like they did back in Carnegie Hall. My vote? Noise, not music.
- BrentOzar 9y ago> maybe the YouTube link should appear at the top No, because half the readers would close the browser or click Back before they finished reading the post.
- kurtisc 9y agoI don't like the way judging if something is or isn't art, or is or isn't music, carries an implication of judging its quality. You can think it's music if you don't enjoy it, think it's bad at what it sets out to achieve, or think it's trite. So I disagree with you on it not being music, there are certainly more conventional pop/rock songs with noisy sections like this piece that don't stop being music when those sections begin. But I won't add it to any playlists.
- zaroth 9y agoI have no bone to pick with Reich, but I do think to call something music, the bar is higher than ‘sound made intentionally’.
- nugi 9y agoI would argue you are woefully wrong. Much great music is made of sounds only fleetingly able to be considered 'intentional'. A noise that conveys a feeling, no matter that feeling, is music. Sure, I don't sit around jamming to John Cage, but I similarly feel vaugely ambivilant about much pop music. Is it any different? Much good hiphop is atonal, much jazz does not repeat, and much popular techno has but a faint hint of "humanity". And yet they are not just music, but wildly popular styles. there are few qualifiers you can put on music, art, etc. without drifting dangerously into 'I know it when I see it' territory.
- zaroth 9y agoIt’s certainly true you can find musical qualities in almost any noise, but “music” by definition is a purposeful structure or arrangement of sounds to convey an idea or emotion. That is not to say that all music must follow some prescribed form or another, but the distinction between sound and music is, at a minimum, structure and intent. And it is also possible to intentionally structure some sounds in a way as to be not music, or unmusic, which is the impression I get listening to Four Organs. Structured noise can certainly evoke an emotion — in this case for instance, confusion and disgust, and likely this is intentional. It may be an artform but I don’t think the noise is meant to be musical so much as it is meant to provocate.
- tjr225 9y ago> And it is also possible to intentionally structure some sounds in a way as to be not music, or unmusic, which is the impression I get listening to Four Organs. This is artwork, and your impression is largely irrelevant. This sentiment that it's too simple or too unintentional reminds me of how I felt when I was 12 and laid eyes upon Clyfford Still's 1951-52 at the Chicago Art Institute. It didn't seem like art to me at the time, but now I see that it is- and that I don't get to define what art is or isn't.
- zaroth 9y agoHah, as artwork the only thing that is relevant is our personal impressions! My impression may not be relevant to you and vice verse, but who cares? I never said it wasn’t performance art through noise. It’s definitely performance art through noise. It’s just that if there is any meaning to the word “music” above and beyond “structured noise” then I’m not sure this hits the bar. @jedimastert commented below that in fact it was precisely this threshold which the artist was exploring in this piece, so instead of foreclosing on the discussion outright as somehow diminishing their work, maybe appreciate that there’s an interesting question here which actually isn’t just a matter of “turn off that god awful noise!”
- ssaew333 9y ago>And it is also possible to intentionally structure some sounds in a way as to be not music, or unmusic No it isn't.
- jedimastert 9y ago> I do think to call something music, the bar is higher than ‘sound made intentionally’ That's exactly the kind of questions and feeling people like Steve Reich and John Cage were trying to explore with their music. What would you say the bar is?
- zaroth 9y agoI don’t know enough about them but, if you’re right about that, then I’d say it’s the best support for my comment possible. If they are intentionally exploring the line between noise and music, then clearly there is one, and it is up to each of us to decide where to draw it. I would say, from the 60 odd seconds of track I listened to, they are asymptotically approaching noise from the musical side of the equation. Which is probably why the audience had such a negative reaction.
- optimuspaul 9y agoI agree. It fills me with sadness that people think they can just decide what music is or isn't. Frankly it doesn't matter what they think.
- michaelt 9y agoMy vote? Noise, not music. I've heard the same thing said about EDM, dubstep, metal, alt rock, rap, punk, pop, rock, and rock and roll. The truth is, any time you try to draw a bright line between what is and isn't a form of art, someone will try to bisect the line in hopes of creating something new and interesting. I think when teenagers' music starts to sound like noise to me, it just means I'm getting old.
- ssaew333 9y agoNa, definitely music. It's based in sound. It's meant for you to listen to, and appreciate like other music. You could just say it's bad music. As in you don't like it.