8 ms·

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs

One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. It almost seems the same type of judgement needs to be made for auto-pilot. If your auto-pilot acts up at all. Just turn it off and don't use it till it's resolved. All you need is one incident to be dead, so if you get a chance to observe any abnormalities, consider it a blessing. Something that will also be great will be a sort of "crash dump/bug report" button for these cars. If at any time your car does something unsafe, you can hit that button. The car will save the last 60 seconds so the manufacturer can analyze it to debug and figure out what went wrong. I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out.

pooya13 9y ago
>> One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. I wonder if we would have had safe planes if that was the mentality when they were first invented.
herbst 9y ago
> I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out. This is more a hijack than a direct critique but I think the general issue is the assumption that we need a private vehicle for that. Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. Edit:// with years I mean years. Before that pressure made longer rides usually more uncomfortable than they are now with modern trains. Probably only because my area has plenty of mountain tho.
- nxc18 9y ago
  Not in the United States. Rail coverage is terrible. If you can get to your destination, good luck doing that without switching trains.
  - herbst 9y ago
    To be fair. I used trains on any continent other than America. My comment is a passive critique to any system who aren't able to build such a transport system yet.
    - protomyth 9y ago
      The US was able (and had) a passenger train network. It didn’t stay updated because cargo is a much more profitable business with professional customers. There is not one aspect of passenger travel that is a bonus over cargo for rail companies. As others have pointed out, you get to optimize the rails for either cargo or passengers.
    - arcticfox 9y ago
      You're almost certainly from an area with a population density much higher than the US.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    We need IoTrains
- bamboozled 9y ago
  Agreed entirely, in some parts of the world you can even drive your car onto a train, have a nice meal, watch a movie and sleep in a luxurious cabin. Wake up the next morning and pick-up your car. I think demand for trains has diminished which is why they're not as nice as they could be; However I found plenty of nice trains on offer in Europe and Asia.
  - herbst 9y ago
    In Asia and Europe it's only developing since ever in my pov
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
  >Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. For a very limited subset of points A and B, though...
  - herbst 9y ago
    Depends where you live. I had no issues in Europe or Asia so far.
    - ekianjo 9y ago
      Even in Europe to get from A to B you need to switch trains super often. Like in France you almost always need to go to Paris first before going somewhere else because the network is so centralized around Paris.
      - erk__ 9y ago
        But even then you can get to paris pretty fast. I have had similar problems where I had to go to Karlsruhe from Flensburg to get a train to paris, as that was the fastest route.
        gomox 9y ago
        To be fair that's not really a reasonable train trip for people that want to actually get there as opposed to riding a train. Probably above 9 hours compared to a sub-2h flight. Train routes that are more meaningful tend to be better serviced.
        herbst 9y ago
        I regularly take a train that takes 6.5 hours. The flight would be 45 minutes. Getting to, into and away from the airport easily ads another 2 hours tho. Also this route has 3 flights a week compared to a train every 2 hours. With the train I just get in and enjoy nice service, free power and WiFi and usually get some work done. Not to mention the difference in my ecological footprint. My point is that it's not like you are wasting time in a uncomfortable environment usually. So I dont mind taking the train, actually usually even prefer it, so do millions of people all over the world.
- mohaine 9y ago
  In the US you will have lots of time to sleep due to waiting for an oncoming train to clear. In most parts of the country we don't have dedicated passenger tracks. Amtrak (our passenger line) just rents track time on the freight lines. The problem is that freight lines are often single track lines so if there is oncoming freight you just wait until the freight clears. Sometimes this his hours. Until we have dedicated passenger lines, long distance train travel is a non-starter here. It was too slow for my 75 year old uncle on a site seeing tour. His exact words were "fun, but never again"
  - ikawe 9y ago
    Nah, I love it.
  - ppseafield 9y ago
    My last Amtrak ride was my very last for this reason. My train was delayed four and a half hours!
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    I've ridden a lot of Amtrak and it's never been on a single track line. Are you sure that's an actual problem? Long delays, sure, but is that the reason? Seems to usually be train equipment failure.
    - tbihl 9y ago
      Having ridden a lot of Amtrak almost makes it less likely that you'd have experienced the single track problem, since quality rail experiences in the US are pretty concentrated such that someone who has good train experiences probably lives/works in an area where that is the rule. On the East coast, pretty good service arguably extends as far south as Richmond, but past that sitting on the tracks is very common. And with that you get the classic downward spiral of crappy transit. Ride a train in SC or GA, and you'll see that anyone with the money for a plane ticket has abandoned rail there.
      - greglindahl 9y ago
vvanders 9y ago
> If at any time your car does something unsafe, you can hit that button. Tesla actually has that, it's not widely documented but you can do a voice command of "Report bug" followed by a brief audio description and it's uploaded to Tesla. No idea how it gets triaged but I wish more products had a similar feature.
- jijojv 9y ago
  I have reported using that and also emailed their feedback list but of course they don't follow up that anything was ever updated to fix it. For e.g. It's still unsafe on car pool lanes with bikers and lane-splitting which is legal in CA.
- stevep98 9y ago
  Really they should have some kind of flag when they get a high number of autopilot disconnects ( or steering overrides) happening in the same place. I had to disconnect every day because it ignored temporary lane stripe markings, and it never improves, despite Tesla’s claim of fleet learning. Seems an obvious way to improve: look at where your drivers are overriding your system.
  - taneq 9y ago
    That's disappointing - I'd assumed that every single disengagement would have been logged and uploaded for analysis and use as a regression test. That's what I'd be doing.
Someone1234 9y ago
> Something that will also be great will be a sort of "crash dump/bug report" button for these cars. Good point, and it isn't just vehicles with auto-pilot perhaps all vehicles. The 2017 and 2018 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan kept on randomly shutting off[0] and loosing all electrical power at freeway speeds. You had to put the vehicle back into park, on the freeway, to restart it. There are several stories of near death experiences trying to get to the shoulder. It was intermittent. This is relevant because nobody could figure out why, even the manufacturer. They had to install custom self-powered diagnostic equipment in consumer's vehicles to even try and get enough data on it. Turns out that suddenly cutting power to the onboard computers doesn't make them very useful for diagnostic analysis, some dealers even acted like the problem didn't exist because the computer had no record. They did ultimately get it fixed (replaced an engine management unit or similar) but it does go to show that modern vehicles are getting so complicated that even manufacturers are struggling to stay ahead of it. Tesla's autopilot and similar just takes that up another notch. [0] https://www.autoblog.com/2017/11/21/chrysler-pacifica-owners-report-sudden-power-loss-fca-investigating/ https://www.autoblog.com/2017/11/21/chrysler-pacifica-owners...
- thaumaturgy 9y ago
  Various sources put the current SLOC count in modern vehicles in the hundred-million range: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39559/does-the-source-code-of-the-software-for-a-high-end-car-contain-on-average-aroun https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39559/does-the-... A lot of that is for the infotainment systems, but regardless, we're probably going to be seeing automakers struggle more and more with all of the problems that have plagued the software industry for its entire history. On the one hand, I want to say that situations like this Tesla crash and your minivan example get so much attention because that's rare, so the manufacturers are mostly getting it right and we'll all be fine. On the other, knowing what I know of the software industry plus my past experience as a shadetree, the prospect of that much code running in 65-mile-an-hour murder machines gives me the shivers.
  - bri3d 9y ago
    As many of the comments (but none of the top-level answers) in that Stack Exchange thread note, most of the code in critical control systems like ECUs isn't written, it's generated from verifiable models. While this doesn't lend complete confidence by any means, I think it can be expected that the defects/SLOC will be much lower and of a very different variety in this type of code than code that's written.
dazc 9y ago
'I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out.' My only experience of automated driving is the feature where you can set a maximum speed. This is useful in the UK since average speed cameras are commonplace on the motorway network nowadays and it is easy for your concentration to lapse and drift over the current limit. The cameras are automated and there isn't much leeway. However, the speed limits often change in range of 50, 60, 70 mph depending on local conditions and roadworks, so you can never just 'set and forget' you need to be alert all of the time since speed limits can change frequently. It's going to be a long time before I trust a car to do this on its own without my supervision and, as regards going to sleep and letting the car do 'everything' on its own, I don't envisage being able to do this comfortably in my lifetime.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  I rented a car that had active cruise control and lane assist. I drove most of the way from Oakland to San Jose with out touching any of the controls, except maybe the accelerator once or twice. But? I got to my destination exhausted and in a little pain because I had sat tensed up ready to take the controls again at a moment's notice. Partly that's because these features are not intended to be a complete self-driving solution. But partly it's exactly what you said - I wouldn't trust it absolutely anyway and would want to stay alert. It's easy for me to stay alert when I'm driving and not just supervising.
- albertop 9y ago
  If you just need to follow speed limits, Tesla can do it perfectly fine. It knows speed limits for most roads. It would fail if the speed limit is due to construction or speed trap :-)
  - firebones 9y ago
    Great point. What's the over-under on a road-worker death when autopilot plows through a confusingly-marked construction zone at 70MPH?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jjtheblunt 9y ago
That's existed for well over a century : trains.
gowld 9y ago
Whoa whoa whoa, "auto-pilot" is NOT self-driving. Tesla goes to great pains to make auto-pilot sound like self-driving while still stringently claiming that it requires constant supervision, like an airplane auto-pilot.
- jijojv 9y ago
  They scam people into buying Tesla thinking their version is close to self-driving right here https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot . Reality is that since Oct'16 is that it's nothing more than a glorified adaptive cruise control found on many common cars. Update: Since Oct'16 self-driving software is an add-on option and Musk has been tweeting[1] since Jan'17 that it's just months away and that its autopilot is somehow safer than adaptive cruise control. This Oct'16 video even starts with the claim that the driver is only there for legal reasons. There is a lawsuit since Apr'17 regarding above - Google dean sheikh et al v. tesla, inc [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 " Yes, safety should improve significantly due to autonomy features, even if regs disallow no driver present 23 Jan 2017" 3 months maybe, 6 months definitely 23 Jan 2017
  - nafizh 9y ago
    I don't know why you are getting downvoted. All you have said is true. Maybe, people don't like the word 'scam', but essentially they are trying to sell more cars by bamboozling people with technology that is years off.
  - bagels 9y ago
    Before clicking that link, I assumed they were very careful about drawing the distinction between 'self-driving' and 'auto-pilot'. They are not careful at all. The first text on that page says "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" You have to be moderately savvy to realize that you'd also need this to be coupled with "self-driving software", which the Tesla does not have.
  - sschueller 9y ago
    It is this reckless marketing. 'Bio defense system', are we meant to believe the Tesla's air conditioning will keep out vx gas? By doing this they are in my opinion sabotaging the invoations they are actually making.
inferiorhuman 9y ago
> I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out. If it's any consolation that's not how autopilot on an airplane works. Pilots are expected to remain alert and ready to intervene in case of trouble.
hawski 9y ago
How can one sleep in autonomous car? For babies car is autonomous already. They have to be strapped pretty tight in a bit reclined position. Do you mean to sleep sitting just like passengers in a car kinda can? I guess people are able to sleep that way. I for one have to be totally exhausted to fall a sleep sitting. One certainly can't hope to sleep laying on a side under a blanket. Self driving can't ensure that car will never experience sudden deceleration. For the same reason you will not see seats facing back of the car. Because you could be killed by your or other passenger's laptop or burned by your hot coffee.
elihu 9y ago
> The car will save the last 60 seconds so the manufacturer can analyze it to debug and figure out what went wrong. Ideally, this would be sent to the NTSB as well to determine if they need to issue a recall and possibly also shared with the public if the car's owner is okay with that. Issuing a bug report to the manufacturer is fine if the manufacturer is being responsive, but fixes take time and large companies don't always put a high priority on fixing bugs. Sharing bug information more widely increases their accountability and I think potential buyers have a right to know about safety-critical flaws before they buy a car.

pooya13 9y ago

>> One of the things you learn in flying is not to force it. If conditions are not safe. Just forget about it. I wonder if we would have had safe planes if that was the mentality when they were first invented.

herbst 9y ago

> I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out. This is more a hijack than a direct critique but I think the general issue is the assumption that we need a private vehicle for that. Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. Edit:// with years I mean years. Before that pressure made longer rides usually more uncomfortable than they are now with modern trains. Probably only because my area has plenty of mountain tho.

nxc18 9y ago
Not in the United States. Rail coverage is terrible. If you can get to your destination, good luck doing that without switching trains.
- herbst 9y ago
  To be fair. I used trains on any continent other than America. My comment is a passive critique to any system who aren't able to build such a transport system yet.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    The US was able (and had) a passenger train network. It didn’t stay updated because cargo is a much more profitable business with professional customers. There is not one aspect of passenger travel that is a bonus over cargo for rail companies. As others have pointed out, you get to optimize the rails for either cargo or passengers.
  - arcticfox 9y ago
    You're almost certainly from an area with a population density much higher than the US.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  We need IoTrains
bamboozled 9y ago
Agreed entirely, in some parts of the world you can even drive your car onto a train, have a nice meal, watch a movie and sleep in a luxurious cabin. Wake up the next morning and pick-up your car. I think demand for trains has diminished which is why they're not as nice as they could be; However I found plenty of nice trains on offer in Europe and Asia.
- herbst 9y ago
  In Asia and Europe it's only developing since ever in my pov
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
>Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. For a very limited subset of points A and B, though...
- herbst 9y ago
  Depends where you live. I had no issues in Europe or Asia so far.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    Even in Europe to get from A to B you need to switch trains super often. Like in France you almost always need to go to Paris first before going somewhere else because the network is so centralized around Paris.
    - erk__ 9y ago
      But even then you can get to paris pretty fast. I have had similar problems where I had to go to Karlsruhe from Flensburg to get a train to paris, as that was the fastest route.
      - gomox 9y ago
        To be fair that's not really a reasonable train trip for people that want to actually get there as opposed to riding a train. Probably above 9 hours compared to a sub-2h flight. Train routes that are more meaningful tend to be better serviced.
        herbst 9y ago
        I regularly take a train that takes 6.5 hours. The flight would be 45 minutes. Getting to, into and away from the airport easily ads another 2 hours tho. Also this route has 3 flights a week compared to a train every 2 hours. With the train I just get in and enjoy nice service, free power and WiFi and usually get some work done. Not to mention the difference in my ecological footprint. My point is that it's not like you are wasting time in a uncomfortable environment usually. So I dont mind taking the train, actually usually even prefer it, so do millions of people all over the world.
mohaine 9y ago
In the US you will have lots of time to sleep due to waiting for an oncoming train to clear. In most parts of the country we don't have dedicated passenger tracks. Amtrak (our passenger line) just rents track time on the freight lines. The problem is that freight lines are often single track lines so if there is oncoming freight you just wait until the freight clears. Sometimes this his hours. Until we have dedicated passenger lines, long distance train travel is a non-starter here. It was too slow for my 75 year old uncle on a site seeing tour. His exact words were "fun, but never again"
- ikawe 9y ago
  Nah, I love it.
- ppseafield 9y ago
  My last Amtrak ride was my very last for this reason. My train was delayed four and a half hours!
- greglindahl 9y ago
  I've ridden a lot of Amtrak and it's never been on a single track line. Are you sure that's an actual problem? Long delays, sure, but is that the reason? Seems to usually be train equipment failure.
  - tbihl 9y ago
    Having ridden a lot of Amtrak almost makes it less likely that you'd have experienced the single track problem, since quality rail experiences in the US are pretty concentrated such that someone who has good train experiences probably lives/works in an area where that is the rule. On the East coast, pretty good service arguably extends as far south as Richmond, but past that sitting on the tracks is very common. And with that you get the classic downward spiral of crappy transit. Ride a train in SC or GA, and you'll see that anyone with the money for a plane ticket has abandoned rail there.
    - greglindahl 9y ago

vvanders 9y ago

> If at any time your car does something unsafe, you can hit that button. Tesla actually has that, it's not widely documented but you can do a voice command of "Report bug" followed by a brief audio description and it's uploaded to Tesla. No idea how it gets triaged but I wish more products had a similar feature.

jijojv 9y ago
I have reported using that and also emailed their feedback list but of course they don't follow up that anything was ever updated to fix it. For e.g. It's still unsafe on car pool lanes with bikers and lane-splitting which is legal in CA.
stevep98 9y ago
Really they should have some kind of flag when they get a high number of autopilot disconnects ( or steering overrides) happening in the same place. I had to disconnect every day because it ignored temporary lane stripe markings, and it never improves, despite Tesla’s claim of fleet learning. Seems an obvious way to improve: look at where your drivers are overriding your system.
- taneq 9y ago
  That's disappointing - I'd assumed that every single disengagement would have been logged and uploaded for analysis and use as a regression test. That's what I'd be doing.

Someone1234 9y ago

> Something that will also be great will be a sort of "crash dump/bug report" button for these cars. Good point, and it isn't just vehicles with auto-pilot perhaps all vehicles. The 2017 and 2018 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan kept on randomly shutting off[0] and loosing all electrical power at freeway speeds. You had to put the vehicle back into park, on the freeway, to restart it. There are several stories of near death experiences trying to get to the shoulder. It was intermittent. This is relevant because nobody could figure out why, even the manufacturer. They had to install custom self-powered diagnostic equipment in consumer's vehicles to even try and get enough data on it. Turns out that suddenly cutting power to the onboard computers doesn't make them very useful for diagnostic analysis, some dealers even acted like the problem didn't exist because the computer had no record. They did ultimately get it fixed (replaced an engine management unit or similar) but it does go to show that modern vehicles are getting so complicated that even manufacturers are struggling to stay ahead of it. Tesla's autopilot and similar just takes that up another notch. [0] https://www.autoblog.com/2017/11/21/chrysler-pacifica-owners-report-sudden-power-loss-fca-investigating/ https://www.autoblog.com/2017/11/21/chrysler-pacifica-owners...

thaumaturgy 9y ago
Various sources put the current SLOC count in modern vehicles in the hundred-million range: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39559/does-the-source-code-of-the-software-for-a-high-end-car-contain-on-average-aroun https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39559/does-the-... A lot of that is for the infotainment systems, but regardless, we're probably going to be seeing automakers struggle more and more with all of the problems that have plagued the software industry for its entire history. On the one hand, I want to say that situations like this Tesla crash and your minivan example get so much attention because that's rare, so the manufacturers are mostly getting it right and we'll all be fine. On the other, knowing what I know of the software industry plus my past experience as a shadetree, the prospect of that much code running in 65-mile-an-hour murder machines gives me the shivers.
- bri3d 9y ago
  As many of the comments (but none of the top-level answers) in that Stack Exchange thread note, most of the code in critical control systems like ECUs isn't written, it's generated from verifiable models. While this doesn't lend complete confidence by any means, I think it can be expected that the defects/SLOC will be much lower and of a very different variety in this type of code than code that's written.

dazc 9y ago

'I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out.' My only experience of automated driving is the feature where you can set a maximum speed. This is useful in the UK since average speed cameras are commonplace on the motorway network nowadays and it is easy for your concentration to lapse and drift over the current limit. The cameras are automated and there isn't much leeway. However, the speed limits often change in range of 50, 60, 70 mph depending on local conditions and roadworks, so you can never just 'set and forget' you need to be alert all of the time since speed limits can change frequently. It's going to be a long time before I trust a car to do this on its own without my supervision and, as regards going to sleep and letting the car do 'everything' on its own, I don't envisage being able to do this comfortably in my lifetime.

TallGuyShort 9y ago
I rented a car that had active cruise control and lane assist. I drove most of the way from Oakland to San Jose with out touching any of the controls, except maybe the accelerator once or twice. But? I got to my destination exhausted and in a little pain because I had sat tensed up ready to take the controls again at a moment's notice. Partly that's because these features are not intended to be a complete self-driving solution. But partly it's exactly what you said - I wouldn't trust it absolutely anyway and would want to stay alert. It's easy for me to stay alert when I'm driving and not just supervising.
albertop 9y ago
If you just need to follow speed limits, Tesla can do it perfectly fine. It knows speed limits for most roads. It would fail if the speed limit is due to construction or speed trap :-)
- firebones 9y ago
  Great point. What's the over-under on a road-worker death when autopilot plows through a confusingly-marked construction zone at 70MPH?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jjtheblunt 9y ago

That's existed for well over a century : trains.

gowld 9y ago

Whoa whoa whoa, "auto-pilot" is NOT self-driving. Tesla goes to great pains to make auto-pilot sound like self-driving while still stringently claiming that it requires constant supervision, like an airplane auto-pilot.

jijojv 9y ago
They scam people into buying Tesla thinking their version is close to self-driving right here https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot . Reality is that since Oct'16 is that it's nothing more than a glorified adaptive cruise control found on many common cars. Update: Since Oct'16 self-driving software is an add-on option and Musk has been tweeting[1] since Jan'17 that it's just months away and that its autopilot is somehow safer than adaptive cruise control. This Oct'16 video even starts with the claim that the driver is only there for legal reasons. There is a lawsuit since Apr'17 regarding above - Google dean sheikh et al v. tesla, inc [1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/823632597284691969 " Yes, safety should improve significantly due to autonomy features, even if regs disallow no driver present 23 Jan 2017" 3 months maybe, 6 months definitely 23 Jan 2017
- nafizh 9y ago
  I don't know why you are getting downvoted. All you have said is true. Maybe, people don't like the word 'scam', but essentially they are trying to sell more cars by bamboozling people with technology that is years off.
- bagels 9y ago
  Before clicking that link, I assumed they were very careful about drawing the distinction between 'self-driving' and 'auto-pilot'. They are not careful at all. The first text on that page says "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" You have to be moderately savvy to realize that you'd also need this to be coupled with "self-driving software", which the Tesla does not have.
- sschueller 9y ago
  It is this reckless marketing. 'Bio defense system', are we meant to believe the Tesla's air conditioning will keep out vx gas? By doing this they are in my opinion sabotaging the invoations they are actually making.

inferiorhuman 9y ago

> I was so excited about auto-pilot and dreamed of getting in my car and sleeping while it made cross-country trips. So much for that, that seems way far out. If it's any consolation that's not how autopilot on an airplane works. Pilots are expected to remain alert and ready to intervene in case of trouble.

hawski 9y ago

How can one sleep in autonomous car? For babies car is autonomous already. They have to be strapped pretty tight in a bit reclined position. Do you mean to sleep sitting just like passengers in a car kinda can? I guess people are able to sleep that way. I for one have to be totally exhausted to fall a sleep sitting. One certainly can't hope to sleep laying on a side under a blanket. Self driving can't ensure that car will never experience sudden deceleration. For the same reason you will not see seats facing back of the car. Because you could be killed by your or other passenger's laptop or burned by your hot coffee.

elihu 9y ago

> The car will save the last 60 seconds so the manufacturer can analyze it to debug and figure out what went wrong. Ideally, this would be sent to the NTSB as well to determine if they need to issue a recall and possibly also shared with the public if the car's owner is okay with that. Issuing a bug report to the manufacturer is fine if the manufacturer is being responsive, but fixes take time and large companies don't always put a high priority on fixing bugs. Sharing bug information more widely increases their accountability and I think potential buyers have a right to know about safety-critical flaws before they buy a car.