5 ms·

It’s hard to go to bed earlier because of interruptions and noise levels on campus, but if they can be managed, so can this problem. The idea that there is some

It’s hard to go to bed earlier because of interruptions and noise levels on campus, but if they can be managed, so can this problem. The idea that there is some innate biological problem is silly IMO. Young people have no unusual difficulty adjusting to time zones when traveling, but they do have computers and cell phones that are like brain cocaine and very difficult to self manage. I started scheduling shut off times for my kids’ cell phones and magically they now get up more bright eyed and get themselves to school on time. Though I suppose there is a self-talk component too, whereby if you convince yourself it’s an innate problem (you’re young, you’re a developer, you’re special) then it might feel more like one. I used to tell myself I couldn’t exercise in the morning, a belief I maintained into my forties, then one year I needed to, after about a month of getting used to it, I was then a morning exerciser...

aqme28 9y ago
It's not silly. It is in fact a real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
- riazrizvi 9y ago
  So they have a hard time getting to sleep on time - but it is because of behavior patterns. If it were due to maladaptive body clock regulation there would be evidence of poor adaptation when traveling to different time zones. If it were due to melatonin dysfunction there would be some wild swings in affected populations between summer and winter periods. Instead this is fully explained by routines. Just ask the college swim team who have to get up at 4/5am to train before class, how do they get up so early? They get to bed early.
  - aqme28 9y ago
    It's a biological thing and there's plenty of research on it. And there _is_ evidence of "poor adaptation." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819.1999.00481.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819....
  - mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
    This is so idiotic. The argument is not about how to wake up on time, the point being made is that you are not as attentive when your circadian rhythm is misaligned with tasks that require a high degree of attention.
    - riazrizvi 9y ago
      What is so idiotic is the concept of a natural circadian rhythm that is being claimed out of correlation studies of social cohorts, when there is no fundamental hypothesis to support the idea that young/old people have innately different rhythms. I agree with you that people do not perform when their rhythms are not in sync with their lives’ demands. However commenters and the article writers are inferring there is some inherent trait that prevents their body clock from adapting.
- sllbww 9y ago
  I just want to say thank you for that link. I just read it and that is exactly how I feel. Really nice to get an explanation.
stordoff 9y ago
Even when I'm very deliberately making sure there are no distractions (no lights on, no electronics, fan for white noise) and/or I'm exhausted (been awake for >2 days), I find it _very_ difficult to sleep before 3am, and that time will gradually slip back to the point where it's often easier to skip a night's sleep to "resync" my sleep schedule. Probably not the case for every one, but it's difficult to not see that as some innate difference, especially as it has persisted for years across multiple environments.
- riazrizvi 9y ago
  What is the biological property of 3am to you? Is it a particular time of darkness? Is it a set point of time after you have woken up? What happens when you travel to a different time zone, do you adapt?
  - barry-cotter 9y ago
    Circadian rhythms depend on time since sunrise/sunset.
    - e12e 9y ago
      As I understand it, it's more of an internal clock that can be shifted by sunrise/sunset light/dark - but there appear to be a biological/inherited component. Hence some mammals have evolved a rhythm more dependent on seasons than day/night, due to polar day/night cycles: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41942188_A_Circadian_Clock_Is_Not_Required_in_an_Arctic_Mammal https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41942188_A_Circadia... Which in turn might imply that humans still being rather young species is tuned to a rather strict day/night cycle, as seen close to the equator.

aqme28 9y ago

It's not silly. It is in fact a real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder

riazrizvi 9y ago
So they have a hard time getting to sleep on time - but it is because of behavior patterns. If it were due to maladaptive body clock regulation there would be evidence of poor adaptation when traveling to different time zones. If it were due to melatonin dysfunction there would be some wild swings in affected populations between summer and winter periods. Instead this is fully explained by routines. Just ask the college swim team who have to get up at 4/5am to train before class, how do they get up so early? They get to bed early.
- aqme28 9y ago
  It's a biological thing and there's plenty of research on it. And there _is_ evidence of "poor adaptation." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819.1999.00481.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819....
- mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
  This is so idiotic. The argument is not about how to wake up on time, the point being made is that you are not as attentive when your circadian rhythm is misaligned with tasks that require a high degree of attention.
  - riazrizvi 9y ago
    What is so idiotic is the concept of a natural circadian rhythm that is being claimed out of correlation studies of social cohorts, when there is no fundamental hypothesis to support the idea that young/old people have innately different rhythms. I agree with you that people do not perform when their rhythms are not in sync with their lives’ demands. However commenters and the article writers are inferring there is some inherent trait that prevents their body clock from adapting.
sllbww 9y ago
I just want to say thank you for that link. I just read it and that is exactly how I feel. Really nice to get an explanation.

stordoff 9y ago

Even when I'm very deliberately making sure there are no distractions (no lights on, no electronics, fan for white noise) and/or I'm exhausted (been awake for >2 days), I find it _very_ difficult to sleep before 3am, and that time will gradually slip back to the point where it's often easier to skip a night's sleep to "resync" my sleep schedule. Probably not the case for every one, but it's difficult to not see that as some innate difference, especially as it has persisted for years across multiple environments.

riazrizvi 9y ago
What is the biological property of 3am to you? Is it a particular time of darkness? Is it a set point of time after you have woken up? What happens when you travel to a different time zone, do you adapt?
- barry-cotter 9y ago
  Circadian rhythms depend on time since sunrise/sunset.
  - e12e 9y ago
    As I understand it, it's more of an internal clock that can be shifted by sunrise/sunset light/dark - but there appear to be a biological/inherited component. Hence some mammals have evolved a rhythm more dependent on seasons than day/night, due to polar day/night cycles: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41942188_A_Circadian_Clock_Is_Not_Required_in_an_Arctic_Mammal https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41942188_A_Circadia... Which in turn might imply that humans still being rather young species is tuned to a rather strict day/night cycle, as seen close to the equator.