5 ms·

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced

> night owls were especially vulnerable, many appearing so chronically jet-lagged that they were unable to perform optimally at any time of day. I experienced this with an 8am biology class I was required to take. It wrecked my whole day. About 1/3 of the way through I just started skipping the class and then later getting notes of the lecture from a friend of mine. It ended up working dramatically well. I got an A, while my friend who got up every MWF to take the notes, got a B. It was kind of a wild result since my studying was based almost entirely on her notes. I hadn't given it too much thought, but it would make sense if being sleep deprived is what hurt her in this case.

lostctown 9y ago
I'd say you owe that friend a round or two.
existencebox 9y ago
Anecdotally, (and as a story for anyone similar to me/with kids similar to how I was) I spent most of my life until college thinking that school/learning was the most miserable process in the world, and that I was terrible at it. It turns out, waking up at ~6 every morning, and usually not going to bed until 10/12 thanks to after school classes and homework, left me with less sleep than I even need to be functional now as an adult and turned highschool into a special sort of "kid jail". I got punished innumerable times for sleeping in class, and probably spent more time by % fighting to keep my eyes open than I did paying attention. (I had at least one teacher who threw chalk at students who slept, it was such a common occasion) This changed like a lightswitch when in college I was able to assert that I didn't take any classes before 10. By the end of my masters I had a 4.0 (highschool had been a struggle to maintain a 3.0 with much easier classes), although it took most of that time to re-learn how to learn and pay attention. The difference was so stark it puts a fire in my belly just to think about the amount of resistance I've seen to changing this status quo. I recognize this is "for adults/work" but as a working adult I refuse to concede that we can't come up with a solution that doesn't so entirely steamroll some kids for being wired to need more sleep.
otoburb 9y ago
This strategy worked well for me too until Circuit Theory. As an "early morning"[] class it was easy to bum the notes from somebody else, but the darn quizzes tanked my grades enough that I had to repeat the course the next available semester. Before Children
stephen_g 9y ago
My worst semester at University I had three 8am lectures... I knew I was a bit of a night owl, but at this point I didn't realise that I actually had a severe sleep disorder. I had just assumed that what people said (you just have to be disciplined, just go to be earlier, etc.) was potentially true, which was demoralising. It was actually pretty liberating to find out about differences in circadian rhythms. I still get similar bad advice, which is about as useful as "just be happier" is to a clinically depressed person...
- tozeur 9y ago
  How did/do you deal with your different circadian rhythm? I have a friend who can easily sleep 12 hours at a time and consistently goes to bed past 3am and wakes up in the afternoon (and has also dealt with depression in the last). I’m wondering what else I can do to help besides push for no screen time past 10pm etc.
  - joveian 9y ago
    Sleeping 12 hours at a time frequently is hypersomnia (at least if actually sleeping, not just in bed unable to sleep). The wikipedia page on hypersomnia links to a number of things that can cause it, including depression. If possible, getting evaluated for sleep apnea is a good idea since that is at least fairly easy to treat (even if the treatment is rather annoying :/). I have Non-24 and insomnia and had hypersomnia when I was younger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia I would encourage your friend to look at the Circadian Sleep Disorders Network site: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ There is a mailing list mentioned there for people with circaidian rhythm disorders, a good way to hear about what works or doesn't work for other people (you don't need to join the organization to subscribe). There is a huge amount of individual variation both in how people are affected and what helps deal with it. Some people do well if they stick to their internal schedule and some of us don't. Unfortunately, there isn't really good treatment for circadian disorders and trying to live on the shifted schedule can be the easiest for for people who do well on that schedule (which is not to say easy as finding a job on such a schedule can be very difficult). The standard treatment recommendation is melatonin and avoiding light before bed and light therapy in the morning. This works for some people, at least for a while, but not for most people (I'd recommend putting some effort into trying to adjust the schedule, just know that it might not work). If avoiding all screen time is too difficult, I recommend turning the color temperature on f.lux or redshift way down (I use 2500K). Also worth noting that trying to adjust your schedule by shifting forward can turn DSPS into Non-24 (that is what happened for me, and the CSD-N survey shows it has happened to a bunch of people while only a few find it helpful), so I'd highly recommend against that (unfortunately some sleep doctors recommend it). Also, stay away from benzos; they don't work long term but are addictive.
riazrizvi 9y ago
It’s hard to go to bed earlier because of interruptions and noise levels on campus, but if they can be managed, so can this problem. The idea that there is some innate biological problem is silly IMO. Young people have no unusual difficulty adjusting to time zones when traveling, but they do have computers and cell phones that are like brain cocaine and very difficult to self manage. I started scheduling shut off times for my kids’ cell phones and magically they now get up more bright eyed and get themselves to school on time. Though I suppose there is a self-talk component too, whereby if you convince yourself it’s an innate problem (you’re young, you’re a developer, you’re special) then it might feel more like one. I used to tell myself I couldn’t exercise in the morning, a belief I maintained into my forties, then one year I needed to, after about a month of getting used to it, I was then a morning exerciser...
- aqme28 9y ago
  It's not silly. It is in fact a real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
  - riazrizvi 9y ago
    So they have a hard time getting to sleep on time - but it is because of behavior patterns. If it were due to maladaptive body clock regulation there would be evidence of poor adaptation when traveling to different time zones. If it were due to melatonin dysfunction there would be some wild swings in affected populations between summer and winter periods. Instead this is fully explained by routines. Just ask the college swim team who have to get up at 4/5am to train before class, how do they get up so early? They get to bed early.
    - aqme28 9y ago
      It's a biological thing and there's plenty of research on it. And there _is_ evidence of "poor adaptation." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819.1999.00481.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819....

lostctown 9y ago

I'd say you owe that friend a round or two.

existencebox 9y ago

Anecdotally, (and as a story for anyone similar to me/with kids similar to how I was) I spent most of my life until college thinking that school/learning was the most miserable process in the world, and that I was terrible at it. It turns out, waking up at ~6 every morning, and usually not going to bed until 10/12 thanks to after school classes and homework, left me with less sleep than I even need to be functional now as an adult and turned highschool into a special sort of "kid jail". I got punished innumerable times for sleeping in class, and probably spent more time by % fighting to keep my eyes open than I did paying attention. (I had at least one teacher who threw chalk at students who slept, it was such a common occasion) This changed like a lightswitch when in college I was able to assert that I didn't take any classes before 10. By the end of my masters I had a 4.0 (highschool had been a struggle to maintain a 3.0 with much easier classes), although it took most of that time to re-learn how to learn and pay attention. The difference was so stark it puts a fire in my belly just to think about the amount of resistance I've seen to changing this status quo. I recognize this is "for adults/work" but as a working adult I refuse to concede that we can't come up with a solution that doesn't so entirely steamroll some kids for being wired to need more sleep.

otoburb 9y ago

This strategy worked well for me too until Circuit Theory. As an "early morning"[] class it was easy to bum the notes from somebody else, but the darn quizzes tanked my grades enough that I had to repeat the course the next available semester. Before Children

stephen_g 9y ago

My worst semester at University I had three 8am lectures... I knew I was a bit of a night owl, but at this point I didn't realise that I actually had a severe sleep disorder. I had just assumed that what people said (you just have to be disciplined, just go to be earlier, etc.) was potentially true, which was demoralising. It was actually pretty liberating to find out about differences in circadian rhythms. I still get similar bad advice, which is about as useful as "just be happier" is to a clinically depressed person...

tozeur 9y ago
How did/do you deal with your different circadian rhythm? I have a friend who can easily sleep 12 hours at a time and consistently goes to bed past 3am and wakes up in the afternoon (and has also dealt with depression in the last). I’m wondering what else I can do to help besides push for no screen time past 10pm etc.
- joveian 9y ago
  Sleeping 12 hours at a time frequently is hypersomnia (at least if actually sleeping, not just in bed unable to sleep). The wikipedia page on hypersomnia links to a number of things that can cause it, including depression. If possible, getting evaluated for sleep apnea is a good idea since that is at least fairly easy to treat (even if the treatment is rather annoying :/). I have Non-24 and insomnia and had hypersomnia when I was younger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersomnia I would encourage your friend to look at the Circadian Sleep Disorders Network site: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/ There is a mailing list mentioned there for people with circaidian rhythm disorders, a good way to hear about what works or doesn't work for other people (you don't need to join the organization to subscribe). There is a huge amount of individual variation both in how people are affected and what helps deal with it. Some people do well if they stick to their internal schedule and some of us don't. Unfortunately, there isn't really good treatment for circadian disorders and trying to live on the shifted schedule can be the easiest for for people who do well on that schedule (which is not to say easy as finding a job on such a schedule can be very difficult). The standard treatment recommendation is melatonin and avoiding light before bed and light therapy in the morning. This works for some people, at least for a while, but not for most people (I'd recommend putting some effort into trying to adjust the schedule, just know that it might not work). If avoiding all screen time is too difficult, I recommend turning the color temperature on f.lux or redshift way down (I use 2500K). Also worth noting that trying to adjust your schedule by shifting forward can turn DSPS into Non-24 (that is what happened for me, and the CSD-N survey shows it has happened to a bunch of people while only a few find it helpful), so I'd highly recommend against that (unfortunately some sleep doctors recommend it). Also, stay away from benzos; they don't work long term but are addictive.

riazrizvi 9y ago

It’s hard to go to bed earlier because of interruptions and noise levels on campus, but if they can be managed, so can this problem. The idea that there is some innate biological problem is silly IMO. Young people have no unusual difficulty adjusting to time zones when traveling, but they do have computers and cell phones that are like brain cocaine and very difficult to self manage. I started scheduling shut off times for my kids’ cell phones and magically they now get up more bright eyed and get themselves to school on time. Though I suppose there is a self-talk component too, whereby if you convince yourself it’s an innate problem (you’re young, you’re a developer, you’re special) then it might feel more like one. I used to tell myself I couldn’t exercise in the morning, a belief I maintained into my forties, then one year I needed to, after about a month of getting used to it, I was then a morning exerciser...

aqme28 9y ago
It's not silly. It is in fact a real thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder
- riazrizvi 9y ago
  So they have a hard time getting to sleep on time - but it is because of behavior patterns. If it were due to maladaptive body clock regulation there would be evidence of poor adaptation when traveling to different time zones. If it were due to melatonin dysfunction there would be some wild swings in affected populations between summer and winter periods. Instead this is fully explained by routines. Just ask the college swim team who have to get up at 4/5am to train before class, how do they get up so early? They get to bed early.
  - aqme28 9y ago
    It's a biological thing and there's plenty of research on it. And there _is_ evidence of "poor adaptation." https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819.1999.00481.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1440-1819....