5 ms·

I would like to know how this technology will affect the great firewall of China, does anyone have any ideas?

nradov 9y ago
Not much effect. The Chinese government will prohibit import and possession of the ground terminals. Smugglers will bring in a few but not enough to really bypass the Great Firewall for many people.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 9y ago
  If you can get a 1Gbps up-link and VPN within China that's going to be harder to track down and could service a lot of people. However, I suspect SpaceX will however allow China to monitor/limit connections. Further, China has a lot more power to crack down on purely internal operations would deter many.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    The problem is twofold from a China perspective: a) the rooftop CPE needs to be reasonably large and have high gain to be used effectively, and needs clear unobstructed line of sight to as much of the sky and horizon as possible. and b) It needs to transmit, it will transmit in very known frequency ranges, and the chinese authorities have plenty of budget to buy portable spectrum analyzers, horn antennas and to reach people how to use them. It only takes a couple of hours maximum to reach somebody how to use a portable spectrum analyzer to physically locate and identify transmitters in almost any band.
    - Retric 9y ago
      A) A thin tarp or pant etc could obscure the shape without blocking radio waves. B) These things need to transmit up, so you can reasonably block most signals in other directions. Aircraft would work, but again not cheap. The real issue is more on the human side and network monitoring. Lots of encrypted network traffic to a ransom location would be suspect. PS: For once tinfoil might actually be useful vs government spying :)
      - walrus01 9y ago
        A) all radome materials have some degree of loss. Ideally you want no loss at all. The path loss in higher than 10GHz frequencies to LEO is already extreme. B) not just up but to the sides and toward the horizon as well. This will be a non moving phased array antenna that can talk to two LEO satellites moving across the sky at the same time. I predict that any reasonable amount of blockage to the sides will not be a good idea for their network architecture. C) all Tx have some sort of sidelobes and nothing has a perfect f/b ratio. Will still be detectable by spectrum analyzers from the side.
        Retric 9y ago
        A) 1% signal attenuation is not going to kill this and that's plenty to work with. B) Depends on how many satellites are in the constellation. Ideally you want a lot of them as there is vastly more atmosphere the lower your angle to the horizon. C) detectable at say 50 feet sure, but a signal you can detect from 10+ miles in a van doing 60mph without a lot of false positives is another story.
        walrus01 9y ago
        the threat model for hiding from spectrum analyzers is not 10+ miles in a van doing 60 mph. With the resources of a nation-state at the disposal of the spectrum analyzer operators (Iran, China, Ethiopia) it will look more like a person walking around a neighborhood with a portable spectrum analyzer and horn antenna. Multiply by however many people are needed to canvass a metro area in a reasonable amount of time. With the resources of China, spending $15,000 per spectrum analyzer kit x 8 kits, plus training, is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money and effort they are currently spending on IP cameras that feed into facial recognition systems, etc.
        Retric 9y ago
        I was more thinking a FSO link ~2km into the middle of nowhere vs having one of those sitting in someone's house. But directional wifi is probably safer as it's also not going to look strange to a spectrum analyzer. However, if you want to catch individual usage in urban areas, with guys on for that's going to easily be into the 10's of of billions as users don't need to keep them on 24/7. AKA within the capability of nation states, but not without significant effort.
- wongarsu 9y ago
  And those people who would be interested in smuggled ground terminals will already be using VPNs. Maybe this will be more convienient and possibly somewhat safer, but not it won't be a game-changer for even a minority (at least not in the firewall problem, general internet connectivity in rural China is another issue)
- drcross 9y ago
  >bring in a few Bring in a few from where? Where do you think these devices will be manufactured anyway? ;)
  - cryptoz 9y ago
    Probably the US.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Exactly. Also, even if they were manufactured in the US, China is literally the best country to reverse-engineer electronics and produce knockoffs ;). That said, AFAIK those satellites aren't meant to be dumb routers/repeaters - so China might just politically/economically pressure US to tell SpaceX to pretty-please don't service connections to/from China.
pmorici 9y ago
Probably not really a factor. Countries were the government wants to control the Internet or communications in general will outlaw the possession of sat-com equipment if they can't get adequate control over it through some other means.
- dsparkman 9y ago
  Just like India does.
  - glax 9y ago
    Can you elaborate ?
    - walrus01 9y ago
      I can, basically anything that transmits needs an indian license from their version of the FCC. No license, it might get taken away by men with guns. You can't even bring a handheld Iridium satellite phone into India without a license. It is not rigorously enforced, because the Indian version of the FCC is certainly not fitted out with Sprinter vans equipped with $60,000 of spectrum analyzers, but it is occasionally enforced. The more traffic you move or the more significant your thing becomes in your local area's telecom infrastructure, the more likely it is to be noticed.
unepipe 9y ago
It will not affect it in any way. They have released their plans for Starlink and there will be a "blackout" zone over China, so China doesn't shoot down their satellites. In 2007, China shot down FY-1C as a test of a kinetic kill vehicle (leaving tons of high speed space debris). Unless they receive approval from China to broadcast, they won't over China. Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-china-threat-2016-11?r=UK&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-con...
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  > shot down FY-1C as a test of a kinetic kill vehicle (leaving tons of high speed space debris) Do you have more info on this? Or anyone? That's so crass. It's plain indefensible. I really want to know more. edit: Thanks for the links.
  - psisbwvaiia 9y ago
    Why is it indefensible to defend your nation’s sovereignty. Many nations have google maps blur out their military bases for example. I’m sure lots of North Americans wouldn’t want Chinese satellites overhead for concern of privacy. I mean, generating tons of space junk is not cool. But what else are you going to do if others are lurking on your airspace? It is going to be shift is policy though. We are going to need to update space law.
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      I mean specifically generating high-speed shrapnel in orbit. That's going to have implications for a very long time. If there is a willingness to do it once, it tests the barrier of what's acceptable. It's bad for everyone—present, and future.
    - jonknee 9y ago
      > I’m sure lots of North Americans wouldn’t want Chinese satellites overhead for concern of privacy. Umm, there are of course Chinese satellites overhead and they have excellent imagery of all of our military bases. As we do for theirs (and every other country!). Orbits aren't very friendly to avoiding airspace.

Not much effect. The Chinese government will prohibit import and possession of the ground terminals. Smugglers will bring in a few but not enough to really bypass the Great Firewall for many people.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Retric 9y ago
If you can get a 1Gbps up-link and VPN within China that's going to be harder to track down and could service a lot of people. However, I suspect SpaceX will however allow China to monitor/limit connections. Further, China has a lot more power to crack down on purely internal operations would deter many.
- walrus01 9y ago
  The problem is twofold from a China perspective: a) the rooftop CPE needs to be reasonably large and have high gain to be used effectively, and needs clear unobstructed line of sight to as much of the sky and horizon as possible. and b) It needs to transmit, it will transmit in very known frequency ranges, and the chinese authorities have plenty of budget to buy portable spectrum analyzers, horn antennas and to reach people how to use them. It only takes a couple of hours maximum to reach somebody how to use a portable spectrum analyzer to physically locate and identify transmitters in almost any band.
  - Retric 9y ago
    A) A thin tarp or pant etc could obscure the shape without blocking radio waves. B) These things need to transmit up, so you can reasonably block most signals in other directions. Aircraft would work, but again not cheap. The real issue is more on the human side and network monitoring. Lots of encrypted network traffic to a ransom location would be suspect. PS: For once tinfoil might actually be useful vs government spying :)
    - walrus01 9y ago
      A) all radome materials have some degree of loss. Ideally you want no loss at all. The path loss in higher than 10GHz frequencies to LEO is already extreme. B) not just up but to the sides and toward the horizon as well. This will be a non moving phased array antenna that can talk to two LEO satellites moving across the sky at the same time. I predict that any reasonable amount of blockage to the sides will not be a good idea for their network architecture. C) all Tx have some sort of sidelobes and nothing has a perfect f/b ratio. Will still be detectable by spectrum analyzers from the side.
      - Retric 9y ago
        A) 1% signal attenuation is not going to kill this and that's plenty to work with. B) Depends on how many satellites are in the constellation. Ideally you want a lot of them as there is vastly more atmosphere the lower your angle to the horizon. C) detectable at say 50 feet sure, but a signal you can detect from 10+ miles in a van doing 60mph without a lot of false positives is another story.
        walrus01 9y ago
        the threat model for hiding from spectrum analyzers is not 10+ miles in a van doing 60 mph. With the resources of a nation-state at the disposal of the spectrum analyzer operators (Iran, China, Ethiopia) it will look more like a person walking around a neighborhood with a portable spectrum analyzer and horn antenna. Multiply by however many people are needed to canvass a metro area in a reasonable amount of time. With the resources of China, spending $15,000 per spectrum analyzer kit x 8 kits, plus training, is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money and effort they are currently spending on IP cameras that feed into facial recognition systems, etc.
        Retric 9y ago
        I was more thinking a FSO link ~2km into the middle of nowhere vs having one of those sitting in someone's house. But directional wifi is probably safer as it's also not going to look strange to a spectrum analyzer. However, if you want to catch individual usage in urban areas, with guys on for that's going to easily be into the 10's of of billions as users don't need to keep them on 24/7. AKA within the capability of nation states, but not without significant effort.
wongarsu 9y ago
And those people who would be interested in smuggled ground terminals will already be using VPNs. Maybe this will be more convienient and possibly somewhat safer, but not it won't be a game-changer for even a minority (at least not in the firewall problem, general internet connectivity in rural China is another issue)
drcross 9y ago
>bring in a few Bring in a few from where? Where do you think these devices will be manufactured anyway? ;)
- cryptoz 9y ago
  Probably the US.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Exactly. Also, even if they were manufactured in the US, China is literally the best country to reverse-engineer electronics and produce knockoffs ;). That said, AFAIK those satellites aren't meant to be dumb routers/repeaters - so China might just politically/economically pressure US to tell SpaceX to pretty-please don't service connections to/from China.

pmorici 9y ago

Probably not really a factor. Countries were the government wants to control the Internet or communications in general will outlaw the possession of sat-com equipment if they can't get adequate control over it through some other means.

dsparkman 9y ago
Just like India does.
- glax 9y ago
  Can you elaborate ?
  - walrus01 9y ago
    I can, basically anything that transmits needs an indian license from their version of the FCC. No license, it might get taken away by men with guns. You can't even bring a handheld Iridium satellite phone into India without a license. It is not rigorously enforced, because the Indian version of the FCC is certainly not fitted out with Sprinter vans equipped with $60,000 of spectrum analyzers, but it is occasionally enforced. The more traffic you move or the more significant your thing becomes in your local area's telecom infrastructure, the more likely it is to be noticed.

unepipe 9y ago

It will not affect it in any way. They have released their plans for Starlink and there will be a "blackout" zone over China, so China doesn't shoot down their satellites. In 2007, China shot down FY-1C as a test of a kinetic kill vehicle (leaving tons of high speed space debris). Unless they receive approval from China to broadcast, they won't over China. Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-constellation-china-threat-2016-11?r=UK&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-internet-satellite-con...

52-6F-62 9y ago
> shot down FY-1C as a test of a kinetic kill vehicle (leaving tons of high speed space debris) Do you have more info on this? Or anyone? That's so crass. It's plain indefensible. I really want to know more. edit: Thanks for the links.
- psisbwvaiia 9y ago
  Why is it indefensible to defend your nation’s sovereignty. Many nations have google maps blur out their military bases for example. I’m sure lots of North Americans wouldn’t want Chinese satellites overhead for concern of privacy. I mean, generating tons of space junk is not cool. But what else are you going to do if others are lurking on your airspace? It is going to be shift is policy though. We are going to need to update space law.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    I mean specifically generating high-speed shrapnel in orbit. That's going to have implications for a very long time. If there is a willingness to do it once, it tests the barrier of what's acceptable. It's bad for everyone—present, and future.
  - jonknee 9y ago
    > I’m sure lots of North Americans wouldn’t want Chinese satellites overhead for concern of privacy. Umm, there are of course Chinese satellites overhead and they have excellent imagery of all of our military bases. As we do for theirs (and every other country!). Orbits aren't very friendly to avoiding airspace.