8 ms·

Since there's no censorship, it sounds like if OpenBazaar is successful it will be used to buy and sell illegal things. How do you feel about that? :)

SamPatt 9y ago
Illegality and immorality are different, and - speaking personally - I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them. People using the tech for immoral transactions does bother me, but we've seen very little of it, and ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it.
- omginternets 9y ago
  >ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it. Why?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    I believe in decentralization and the benefits of anti-fragility. Having only a handful of companies in the world exerting enormous control over online commerce is dangerous. The amount of data they control is staggering, especially when combined with data collected from other centralized platforms (social media, the banking system, government surveillance). I don't like needing to ask permission to use those platforms in order to engage in something as fundamental as commerce. Alternatives need to exist, and OpenBazaar is the alternative to the tightly monitored and controlled online marketplaces. The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar.
    - kennywinker 9y ago
      You said you want a network that no one company or government controls, but it sounds to me like what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls. What about a network that people could control, but not governments or corporations? That's a technical challenge if I ever saw one.
      - SamPatt 9y ago
        >what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls That's true in the same sense that no one controls the internet. People can control their own portion of the network, they can ban peers and report listings to search engine providers. They can create a custom client that will only see certain types of listings. Distributed networks aren't a new phenomenon, no one controls them either. If someone could control them they they wouldn't be distributed anymore. There are ideas for governance systems (voting or other mechanisms), but if the network is permissionless then there's really no way to have an effective governance system (that I'm aware of).
    - drinfinity 9y ago
      There is an alternative: (small) business. The world is filled with people who would love to setup a trading business. You might remember it, we called it "shops". These corporations are so huge, because you buy stuff from them. That is the only reason. You bought and still buy stuff from them, because you preferred convenience and cheap stuff to integrity. Now they've grown so huge there is no way to control them. We will pay the price now, thanks. We don't need another child-porn and weapons distribution channel.
      - samueldavid 9y ago
        i agree
      - olkingcole 9y ago
        I think the benefits of access to a nation-wide or world-wide market have been enormous and will become even more so in the future. Unfortunately we are realizing that the costs of this transition, if we maintain our current path, are grave. A decentralized approach like OpenBazaar mitigates or eliminates many of the negative side-effects brought on by our current, mega-corporation-dominated access model. With regard to small businesses, an OpenBazaar type system would enable small businesses to trade with the rest of the world (and their local community) on their own terms, without any anti-competitive BS, and without sacrificing profit to platform fees. The question is: can a distributed system match the value Amazon's service provides to the consumer?
        drinfinity 9y ago
        Sorry, I disagree. Just because Amazon sucks, does not mean we need to retreat into full-on anarchy over this. Craigslist is also a marketplace and it isn't the behemoth Amazon is. Also, Amazon provides a lot more than just a market-place. Everything from "inventory tracking to tax collection to credit card processing". These are no trivial features. You could have started a regular, centralised, open market-place - by the community, for the community type of deal - and get the same benefits. Of course, selling "medicine" would be difficult.. but we all know that is not what this is about, right?
- ExcelSaga 9y ago
  Ok, let’s look at an example of illegal and immoral. What will you do when people sell child porn on your platform?
  - Miner49er 9y ago
    I'm not with OpenBazaar, but I believe with how it works it's not possible to do anything. It's decentralized. The government should go after nodes hosting the illegal content.
    - ExcelSaga 9y ago
      With this as a stated goal, The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar... going after the network as a whole doesn’t seem unreasonable. The FBI for example, probably isn’t still in their Atlas Shrugged phase.
      - thinkloop 9y ago
        How do you go after the network as a whole? The nice thing about decentralization is that it forces government to be more surgical in their enforcement. State actors have all the tools necessary to identify and target individual bad actors. You have to be a real champion not to leak data or make a mistake over time. Bitcoin, for example, is much harder to hide than cash. In centralized systems it's just easier to be lazy and implement mass surveillance and absolute control - which a lot of people in the community disagree with. Terrorism for example barely exists, and barely ever existed, but massive apparatuses that infringe on the liberties of billions of people have been implemented in the name of it. Child porn, chemical/radioactive weapons trading, and assassination requests are the big 3 often cited - but really these too barely exist, and nations have more than enough resources to counter them with precision.
      - OrganicMSG 9y ago
        >The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. Strictly speaking, that is marketing hyperbole on their part as the world already has a lot of protocols and networks for trade that no one company or government controls, otherwise stuff like international mail would have problems.
- cctt23 9y ago
  Ideologically I like where you’re coming from, but legally speaking I think you’re going to prison.
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    I view it similarly to the creation of BitTorrent. Yes, it was used to facilitate illegal activity, but the creators of the technology themselves didn't host the infrastructure or break the law. We shouldn't be afraid to build new things just because they can be abused. Also we monitor the network and the overwhelming majority is legal trade. If that changed at some point then it might be a different question.
    - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
      Bram Cohen didn’t go on Hacker News and invalidate every safe harbor a defense counsel needs, either. Just to be clear, you’ve said, in writing, on behalf of your company, that you are aware of illegal activity happening on your network, that you’re okay with it, and that you monitor the network on which illegal activity is taking place and have determined the legality thereof (enough to know a minority is illegal), and to ice that holy shit cake you even fired a warning shot at pharmaceutical regulators planetwide. That manner of legislative and regulatory flout is a heat-seeking company missile, and can only end with your eventual incarceration. Abort thread. Talk to lawyer about further HN commentary. Your discussion here is plainly legally actionable by any investors concerned about your fiduciary responsibilities, and this page will almost certainly be printed out as an exhibit in several legal proceedings, some potentially criminal. I appreciate and respect the change you’re trying to drive, where you’re coming from, and your optimism, but you really, really need to understand the peril you’re in, as unfortunate as it is. I’m dead serious. DPR got life without parole. They’re not messing around. Repeat after me: I have no knowledge of illegal activity taking place on the platform, and condemn it.
      - cctt23 9y ago
        Bram Cohen didn’t go on Hacker News and invalidate every safe harbor a defense counsel needs, either. Just to be clear, you’ve said, in writing, on behalf of your company, that you are aware of illegal activity happening on your network, that you’re okay with it, and that you monitor the network on which illegal activity is taking place and have determined the legality thereof (enough to know a minority is illegal). Yeah, he’s going to prison, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about the potential value of his platform, and it doesn’t mean his motives aren’t good. It probably does mean that idealism is a shitty defense in court though.
- IAmGraydon 9y ago
  "I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them." You really, really should not have said that. It will probably come back to bite you. Even if it doesn't, why even take the risk in making a statement like that in today's climate?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    I do appreciate the word of caution. I've gone beyond the point where any given act of self-censorship is more beneficial than speaking the truth of the situation. My position: over the next few generations, adoption of decentralized technology will result in an enormously more peaceful and prosperous humanity then the centrally-controlled alternative. If we take the path of reliance on systems that are controlled by a few powerful organizations then we are at their mercy. The alternatives must exist for those who want to opt out. I can obviously be accused of naivety, but if I'm open about my motives and my expectations it seems less likely to be accused of malicious intent.
    - domevent 9y ago
      I don’t think you’ll be charged with naivety, more likely that’s what your attorney will desperately try to plead. Of course, your words cited by GP will make that impossible. Good luck, you’re really going to need it!
      - N8works 9y ago
        Don't let fear paralyze you. If those pushing the boundaries censored themselves based upon the fear of being persecuted in the future, we'd have no progress.
      - patrickaljord 9y ago
        As far as I know, as long as they don't host any nodes with illegal content, they shouldn't get in trouble just for publishing the protocol and the client protocol and servers. Otherwise, the inventors of tcp/ip, http, bittorrent, telnet and more would be in prison.
- mirimir 9y ago
  This is admirable. Totally fucking admirable!

SamPatt 9y ago

Illegality and immorality are different, and - speaking personally - I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them. People using the tech for immoral transactions does bother me, but we've seen very little of it, and ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it.

omginternets 9y ago
>ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it. Why?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  I believe in decentralization and the benefits of anti-fragility. Having only a handful of companies in the world exerting enormous control over online commerce is dangerous. The amount of data they control is staggering, especially when combined with data collected from other centralized platforms (social media, the banking system, government surveillance). I don't like needing to ask permission to use those platforms in order to engage in something as fundamental as commerce. Alternatives need to exist, and OpenBazaar is the alternative to the tightly monitored and controlled online marketplaces. The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar.
  - kennywinker 9y ago
    You said you want a network that no one company or government controls, but it sounds to me like what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls. What about a network that people could control, but not governments or corporations? That's a technical challenge if I ever saw one.
    - SamPatt 9y ago
      >what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls That's true in the same sense that no one controls the internet. People can control their own portion of the network, they can ban peers and report listings to search engine providers. They can create a custom client that will only see certain types of listings. Distributed networks aren't a new phenomenon, no one controls them either. If someone could control them they they wouldn't be distributed anymore. There are ideas for governance systems (voting or other mechanisms), but if the network is permissionless then there's really no way to have an effective governance system (that I'm aware of).
  - drinfinity 9y ago
    There is an alternative: (small) business. The world is filled with people who would love to setup a trading business. You might remember it, we called it "shops". These corporations are so huge, because you buy stuff from them. That is the only reason. You bought and still buy stuff from them, because you preferred convenience and cheap stuff to integrity. Now they've grown so huge there is no way to control them. We will pay the price now, thanks. We don't need another child-porn and weapons distribution channel.
    - samueldavid 9y ago
      i agree
    - olkingcole 9y ago
      I think the benefits of access to a nation-wide or world-wide market have been enormous and will become even more so in the future. Unfortunately we are realizing that the costs of this transition, if we maintain our current path, are grave. A decentralized approach like OpenBazaar mitigates or eliminates many of the negative side-effects brought on by our current, mega-corporation-dominated access model. With regard to small businesses, an OpenBazaar type system would enable small businesses to trade with the rest of the world (and their local community) on their own terms, without any anti-competitive BS, and without sacrificing profit to platform fees. The question is: can a distributed system match the value Amazon's service provides to the consumer?
      - drinfinity 9y ago
        Sorry, I disagree. Just because Amazon sucks, does not mean we need to retreat into full-on anarchy over this. Craigslist is also a marketplace and it isn't the behemoth Amazon is. Also, Amazon provides a lot more than just a market-place. Everything from "inventory tracking to tax collection to credit card processing". These are no trivial features. You could have started a regular, centralised, open market-place - by the community, for the community type of deal - and get the same benefits. Of course, selling "medicine" would be difficult.. but we all know that is not what this is about, right?
ExcelSaga 9y ago
Ok, let’s look at an example of illegal and immoral. What will you do when people sell child porn on your platform?
- Miner49er 9y ago
  I'm not with OpenBazaar, but I believe with how it works it's not possible to do anything. It's decentralized. The government should go after nodes hosting the illegal content.
  - ExcelSaga 9y ago
    With this as a stated goal, The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar... going after the network as a whole doesn’t seem unreasonable. The FBI for example, probably isn’t still in their Atlas Shrugged phase.
    - thinkloop 9y ago
      How do you go after the network as a whole? The nice thing about decentralization is that it forces government to be more surgical in their enforcement. State actors have all the tools necessary to identify and target individual bad actors. You have to be a real champion not to leak data or make a mistake over time. Bitcoin, for example, is much harder to hide than cash. In centralized systems it's just easier to be lazy and implement mass surveillance and absolute control - which a lot of people in the community disagree with. Terrorism for example barely exists, and barely ever existed, but massive apparatuses that infringe on the liberties of billions of people have been implemented in the name of it. Child porn, chemical/radioactive weapons trading, and assassination requests are the big 3 often cited - but really these too barely exist, and nations have more than enough resources to counter them with precision.
    - OrganicMSG 9y ago
      >The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. Strictly speaking, that is marketing hyperbole on their part as the world already has a lot of protocols and networks for trade that no one company or government controls, otherwise stuff like international mail would have problems.
cctt23 9y ago
Ideologically I like where you’re coming from, but legally speaking I think you’re going to prison.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  I view it similarly to the creation of BitTorrent. Yes, it was used to facilitate illegal activity, but the creators of the technology themselves didn't host the infrastructure or break the law. We shouldn't be afraid to build new things just because they can be abused. Also we monitor the network and the overwhelming majority is legal trade. If that changed at some point then it might be a different question.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    Bram Cohen didn’t go on Hacker News and invalidate every safe harbor a defense counsel needs, either. Just to be clear, you’ve said, in writing, on behalf of your company, that you are aware of illegal activity happening on your network, that you’re okay with it, and that you monitor the network on which illegal activity is taking place and have determined the legality thereof (enough to know a minority is illegal), and to ice that holy shit cake you even fired a warning shot at pharmaceutical regulators planetwide. That manner of legislative and regulatory flout is a heat-seeking company missile, and can only end with your eventual incarceration. Abort thread. Talk to lawyer about further HN commentary. Your discussion here is plainly legally actionable by any investors concerned about your fiduciary responsibilities, and this page will almost certainly be printed out as an exhibit in several legal proceedings, some potentially criminal. I appreciate and respect the change you’re trying to drive, where you’re coming from, and your optimism, but you really, really need to understand the peril you’re in, as unfortunate as it is. I’m dead serious. DPR got life without parole. They’re not messing around. Repeat after me: I have no knowledge of illegal activity taking place on the platform, and condemn it.
    - cctt23 9y ago
      Bram Cohen didn’t go on Hacker News and invalidate every safe harbor a defense counsel needs, either. Just to be clear, you’ve said, in writing, on behalf of your company, that you are aware of illegal activity happening on your network, that you’re okay with it, and that you monitor the network on which illegal activity is taking place and have determined the legality thereof (enough to know a minority is illegal). Yeah, he’s going to prison, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about the potential value of his platform, and it doesn’t mean his motives aren’t good. It probably does mean that idealism is a shitty defense in court though.
IAmGraydon 9y ago
"I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them." You really, really should not have said that. It will probably come back to bite you. Even if it doesn't, why even take the risk in making a statement like that in today's climate?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  I do appreciate the word of caution. I've gone beyond the point where any given act of self-censorship is more beneficial than speaking the truth of the situation. My position: over the next few generations, adoption of decentralized technology will result in an enormously more peaceful and prosperous humanity then the centrally-controlled alternative. If we take the path of reliance on systems that are controlled by a few powerful organizations then we are at their mercy. The alternatives must exist for those who want to opt out. I can obviously be accused of naivety, but if I'm open about my motives and my expectations it seems less likely to be accused of malicious intent.
  - domevent 9y ago
    I don’t think you’ll be charged with naivety, more likely that’s what your attorney will desperately try to plead. Of course, your words cited by GP will make that impossible. Good luck, you’re really going to need it!
    - N8works 9y ago
      Don't let fear paralyze you. If those pushing the boundaries censored themselves based upon the fear of being persecuted in the future, we'd have no progress.
    - patrickaljord 9y ago
      As far as I know, as long as they don't host any nodes with illegal content, they shouldn't get in trouble just for publishing the protocol and the client protocol and servers. Otherwise, the inventors of tcp/ip, http, bittorrent, telnet and more would be in prison.
mirimir 9y ago
This is admirable. Totally fucking admirable!