38 ms·

OpenBazaar 2.0, powered by IPFS

512 points by zapita 9y ago

SamPatt 9y ago
I work on OpenBazaar and I'm happy to answer any questions. The basics: It's a fully distributed network where people engage in trade directly with each other using cryptocurrency. Because there are no middlemen, there are no fees, there is no centralized data collection, there are no account sign ups, and there is no censorship. You can view the server (Go) here: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go And client here: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop
- omarchowdhury 9y ago
  Why is the website loading so slow?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Top of Hacker News probably doesn't help much! We're in process of changing the website over so it wasn't a great time for a big hug. But the website is mostly a marketing tool and a place to download the installer packages. Which you can find here as well: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
    - rmc 9y ago
      This headline says it's powered by IPFS, and if the website was hosted there, then the site wouldn't suffer this problem!
      - Filligree 9y ago
        It sure would be great if browsers supported ipfs. :P
        rmc 9y ago
        If you use the IPFS companion extension, then your browser does!
- damoonvisuals 9y ago
  Hi Sam, How do you intend to prevent sybil attacks on seller ratings? Since there are no account sign ups and subsequent verifications, it would be theoretically possible to create a large number of accounts with fake reviews.
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    The honest answer is that we haven't solved the decentralized reputation problem and reviews can't entirely be trusted. There are a few factors that still make reviews somewhat useful though. People can choose to attach their name, and if they are reputable then their review matters more than an anon account. Reviews also can only be left when there is a full record of trade having occurred, and funds have moved (verified on the blockchain), so at the very least an attacker is paying cryptocurrency fees for each false rating. But ultimately there's a lot of work to be done in decentralized reputation. The work of projects like Trust is Risk seems promising (we've supported their efforts): https://github.com/OrfeasLitos/TrustIsRisk https://github.com/OrfeasLitos/TrustIsRisk
    - aomix 9y ago
      Why isn't a basic version of proof of work a reasonable approximation of that for the time being? Ex. to provide a review you must also provide a value that when postpended to your review gives a hash containing some properties that scales with the number of reviews. This doesn't solve decentralized reputation at all but does prevent review bombing.
      - SamPatt 9y ago
        If the buyer leaves a review after making a purchase, that's effectively a small proof of work in and of itself, and you can only leave one review per purchase. We haven't seen review bombing attempted yet, but if someone were willing to pay a bunch of fees then I suppose it is possible to do.
        IncRnd 9y ago
- jmeyer2k 9y ago
  How do you moderate the search engine? In other words, people post illegal items on your platform; how do you prevent those items from showing up on the various search engines?
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Currently we have federated search, like BitTorrent, except we have a public standard[1] for allowing anybody to create a search engine that plugs into the client. Every search engine has their own policies and methods for moderation. It's similar to choosing between Google and DDG in your browser. [1] https://github.com/OpenBazaar/obips/blob/master/obip-0002.md https://github.com/OpenBazaar/obips/blob/master/obip-0002.md
    - jjeaff 9y ago
      So if you run an open bazaar server, do you have any control over what content gets federated to your node? In the case of BitTorrent, you are only serving up what you have specifically downloaded. So how do you federate the market listings without turning unwitting users into felons?
      - tylersmith 9y ago
        Just like you described for BitTorrent. Your node only downloads and serves things you have explicitly downloaded/viewed. You can purge that data if you want but not yet remove only specific content.
        rapnie 9y ago
        the way you describe this (i.e. 'viewed') sounds like an opt-out feature, not an explicit opt-in..
      - SamPatt 9y ago
        This isn't a push network, you only cache and rehost the data that you have requested (by visiting another user's page). And if you visit something you don't want to rehost then you can clear the cache. So yes, users have complete control over what content they are serving.
- zethraeus 9y ago
  Since there's no censorship, it sounds like if OpenBazaar is successful it will be used to buy and sell illegal things. How do you feel about that? :)
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Illegality and immorality are different, and - speaking personally - I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them. People using the tech for immoral transactions does bother me, but we've seen very little of it, and ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it.
    - omginternets 9y ago
      >ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it. Why?
      - SamPatt 9y ago
        I believe in decentralization and the benefits of anti-fragility. Having only a handful of companies in the world exerting enormous control over online commerce is dangerous. The amount of data they control is staggering, especially when combined with data collected from other centralized platforms (social media, the banking system, government surveillance). I don't like needing to ask permission to use those platforms in order to engage in something as fundamental as commerce. Alternatives need to exist, and OpenBazaar is the alternative to the tightly monitored and controlled online marketplaces. The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar.
        kennywinker 9y ago
        You said you want a network that no one company or government controls, but it sounds to me like what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls. What about a network that people could control, but not governments or corporations? That's a technical challenge if I ever saw one.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  All great, but is there no money to be made? Did you guys build this out of the kindness of your heart?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    No money to be made via the protocol itself, true. But we obviously hope that OpenBazaar becomes widely adopted and we then have a large group of people to sell (optional!) services to. We (the company I co-founded, OB1) already have a search engine for the network and a verified moderators service that helps people know who to trust on the network. As the network grows there will be other services to offer.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Thanks! Good luck
    - roadbeats 9y ago
      How does the search engine work ? (I'm interested building a search engine for IPFS)
  - grubles 9y ago
    It's important to note there are plans for the development company behind OpenBazaar to launch a token[0]. [0]https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-launch-layer-two-coin/ https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-la...
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      It's also important to note that distribution plans are not final so there's no reason to believe money will be made from it.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  How does the recent FOSTA legislation square with this distributed network? I presume that it works similar to the BitTorrent network where there are nodes and supernodes? I also assume that if someone creates a listing, it gets distributed automatically to many different nodes on the network. So if that's the case, and an illegal sex trafficking listing gets created, how do you ensure that innocent nodes or supernodes on the network don't become liable for the criminal listings that may inevitably popup?
  - dannyw 9y ago
    OpenBazaar is not like BitTorrent but more like Tor hidden services. As a node, you do not host any content that isn’t yours. When you visit a store, you traverse through the network and communicate directly with the owner of the store. So, the legal liability of each store rests with the store.
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      This is not quite correct. It does actually work a lot like BitTorrent. When a node loads content it begins to serve it it to other users as well. This cache can be purged by the user.
      - dexterdog 9y ago
        But isn't it fragmented so it is only serving chunks and not the whole thing?
        tylersmith 9y ago
        Yes, data is fragmented and served in chunks just like Bittorrent. You might only serve small chunks of any given piece of data, and as a downloader you may be downloading different chunks from different peers.
        mirimir 9y ago
        Are the chunks encrypted or obscured? That is, could an adversary with local access to the node determine what object a particular chunk is part of? How about an adversary that can see traffic, but not the node's storage?
- artursapek 9y ago
  As someone who works in the cryptocurrency industry, it's refreshing to see someone dedicated to building something actually useful instead of another depressingly transparent get-rich-quick P&D scam. I will download and try OB this week.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Thanks for the kind words! I hope you enjoy using it.
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Glad to hear it, please let us know how it goes. There's a feedback button built right into the client so it's very easy to let us hear your feedback!
    - lovemenot 9y ago
      Same here. I created a few service listings this weekend. I really like the technology (can I use the word "platform" here?) and the vision. I wonder about the business side though. Vendors need many buyers and vice versa, yet download and installation presents significant friction. For OB, what might become a kernel of serious market activity as collectibles apparently was for eBay in their early days? I believe you are targeting Crypto trading, right?
  - grubles 9y ago
    It's interesting to note that the submitted blog post has no mention of the plans to launch a token[0]. [0]https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-launch-layer-two-coin/ https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-la...
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      Well the submitted blog post is old and predates our curation token plans so it's not really weird. A token will never be required to use the protocol. Even if we tried to make it work that way we'd be forked because it's fundamentally unnecessary for the base protocol.
- hiccuphippo 9y ago
  How do buyers make sure sellers are not scamming them?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    There is a system for dispute resolution. Both parties agree to use a third party, called a moderator, who will settle the dispute if either party is dissatisfied. The cryptocurrency isn't sent directly to the seller, but it goes into a 2-of-3 multisig account. That requires any two of the parties to release the funds. Most of the time the buyer and seller are happy and release the funds when the transaction is completed, but if either party is unhappy then they open a dispute and the moderator gets involved. He / she then joins with the winning party to move the funds. Moderators are very important in the system and it's important that people choose trustworthy ones, so my company OB1 offers a service where we vet moderators so people know who to choose. https://ob1.io/verified-moderators.html https://ob1.io/verified-moderators.html
    - lucasverra 9y ago
      you should check on Kleros.io for a real focused startup on that subject
- oldgun 9y ago
  What's the vision and mission of OpenBazaar? Do you think it's going to be significantly scalable and disruptive?
- pbreit 9y ago
  Any ideas on how much sales volume there is?
- mirimir 9y ago
  How is integration with Tor? Can nodes be onion services?
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Yes, when starting in Tor-mode OpenBazaar creates a new hidden service.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Very cool! It was iffy, the last time I checked. But that was many months ago. So just as with IPFS, there can be OpenBazaar branches in Tor onion space. But those nodes are only accessible for users in Tor-mode, right? Or are there gateways? Edit: https://news.bitcoin.com/openbazaar-2-0-beta-launches-with-tor-offline-stores-bitcoin-cash-and-segwit/ https://news.bitcoin.com/openbazaar-2-0-beta-launches-with-t...
      - tylersmith 9y ago
        Clearnet can't see tor but tor can see clearnet.
- louismerlin 9y ago
  Will you be able to delete a user's data to be gdpr compliant, while still using IPFS ?
  - patrickaljord 9y ago
    Pretty sure the goal of a distributed technology like that is to not be affected by laws such as gdrp enforced by centralized governments, same for drug laws etc.
    - germanier 9y ago
      Yes, but "We put extra in effort into breaking the law." is among the worst possible things you can say to a court. That one is unable to fulfill their obligations because it's impossible by their own choice of technology is not an excuse. A user of such technology is still affected by laws if they ever get hands on them. This removes the incentive to use the technology apart from those that specifically (or by negligence) are out to break that law. I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally.
      - hapnin 9y ago
        > I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally. It's a good thing for all of us that Phil Zimmermann didn't feel that way.
        pjc50 9y ago
        Phil Zimmermann didn't actually do anything illegal, if we believe that the export of PGP was done by other people.
        hapnin 9y ago
        He knew he'd be targeted (and he was), legal or not. It's probably why whoever wrote Bitcoin used a nom de chiffere. http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/ http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/
- direengineer 9y ago
  Hi Sam, It's a tangential question- What kind of real-world problems do you envisage being solved by blockchain first? ( Ethereum/ Ipfs/) Also, from an proficient and experienced Software Engineer(with backend /infra side of things), what kind of blockchain-based projects would you find impressive to showcase one's skillset?
- flexie 9y ago
  How do you make money if there are no fees?
  - deadbunny 9y ago
    Why do they need to make money?
- j0hnM1st 9y ago
  Is it possible to extend and add support for other crypto-currencies ?
- JeremyBanks 9y ago
  How do you feel about inevitably facilitating assassinations and fentanyl deaths?
  - Xeoncross 9y ago
    By that logic there are literately thousands of people in the chain of "facilitators" from the people who write cell phone operating systems to the auto dealership who sells them a car.
- flyingfences 9y ago
  In a blog post from a few months ago [1] your organization expressed lament at the (at-the-time) high Bitcoin network fees and the lack of a usable Lightning Network. Now that LN is entering the late stages of beta development and a proper release is imminent, do you have an estimated timeline for BTC LN integration? [1] https://www.openbazaar.org/blog/openbazaar-bitcoin-fees/ https://www.openbazaar.org/blog/openbazaar-bitcoin-fees/
phs318u 9y ago
Server’s down. Here’s the archive.org snapshot: https://web.archive.org/web/20180326210403/https://www.openbazaar.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180326210403/https://www.openb...
- ttul 9y ago
  Unfortunately, Archive.org does not archive the downloadable installers because of robots.txt. Is there a mirror for these binaries?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Yes: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
    - ttul 9y ago
      Thank you.
- XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
  It would be nice to use an IPFS mirror. If still no one has mirrored it on IPFS I'll do it when I get home.
zethraeus 9y ago
Why don't you take fees to support further development?
- nightcracker 9y ago
  Disclaimer: not associated with OpenBazaar, just a devil's advocate. If Alice and Bob were to trade drugs on my website, and I take fees for that commerce, you can bet that law enforcement is knocking on my door very soon.
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    I'm thinking law enforcement will come knocking whether you take fees or not. Especially with the recent legislation. Craigslist took down their personals and they don't make any money off of it.
    - omgbananas 9y ago
      Now we need to make a distributed version of Craigslist.
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Note that OpenBazar is not a website. It's open source software you download to your machine and it connects you directly to the network. There is no company or organization running a server that is hosting stores; it's completely distributed.
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Most development is sponsored by OB1 (where I work). We have raised money from investors like A16Z, BlueYard, and USV. The project also supports donations. We don't need to skim fees to survive. Edit: Additionally, the aim is to be an open protocol for trade and not just a product. Fees for using an open protocol don't make much sense.
  - codetrotter 9y ago
ferrel2078 9y ago
What uses do you see for this aside from illegal drugs, cybercrime, terrorism, child porn and human trafficking? Do you feel you're making the world a better place with this project?
- jstanley 9y ago
  You seriously can't imagine any uses for an online marketplace that aren't illegal?? Have you bought or sold anything online in the last week? Those things could probably be done on OpenBazaar.
  - boomlinde 9y ago
    > You seriously can't imagine any uses for an online marketplace that aren't illegal?? > Have you bought or sold anything online in the last week? Those things could probably be done on OpenBazaar. But will they? I don't think that's a fair summary of the criticism. There are already much more convenient alternatives for legally selling goods and services, using currency that's actually effectively currency, without using some command line tool to run a node. I think there are going to be three types of users: 1) people that are using it out mostly out of interest of the technology, 2) people to whom the platform is ideologically interesting i.e. anti-government types, libertarians, anti-corporate types etc., and 3) users that actually benefit from the anonymity and lack of censorship by selling illegal goods or completely avoiding taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if the last category eventually grows much bigger than the former two. I only hope that it will be mostly illegal goods that don't harm really anyone, like cheap counterfeit consumer crap.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      Would you have said the same things about eBay when eBay first launched? "Who would buy anything on eBay when there are already more convenient alternatives?" ? I buy almost everything on eBay because of the convenience of having the same search system and user interface for every type of thing I want to buy. I'd love to get a similar user experience without having to trust eBay as the arbiter of every single transaction. For example you can't buy knvives on eBay, so when I want to buy a knife I have to go somewhere else. I bought a number plate for my car on eBay recently (old one was cracked), and it all went fine, but when I went to buy another I found the seller's account had been shut down by eBay, for unspecified reasons. On OpenBazaar that wouldn't be able to happen.
jancsika 9y ago
Have you or your team used it to trade anything yet? Would be interested to hear what kinds of things you traded and how the process went. Apologies if user stories are on your site-- I can't access it atm.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  This announcement was made last November, I'm not quite sure why it's resurfacing now (though I welcome it!), but there's been a substantial amount of trade on the platform since it began. I've been running the swag store and we've sold hundreds of tshirts, pins, stickers, etc. But I always get excited when a merchant reaches out and tells us about the sales they've gotten. No question that it doesn't even have a small fraction of the users of major platforms, we've got a long way to go. But there have been about 42,000 unique nodes on the network since Nov 2017, and I'm pretty happy with that number. It's a fairly radical proposal to have people run their own store on their own computer, but there are at least that many people in the world willing to do it. Just wait until the mobile app and the browser client are finished!
  - flyingfences 9y ago
    I actually missed the announcement in November (despite being very excited about the project) so I'm glad it was re-posted.
andrewxhill 9y ago
Congrats! OB is great and openbazaar-go has been a very helpful project for us.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  I'm glad to hear this, if you're using OpenBazaar in your project I'd love to hear more about it (you can join our developer calls we hold bi-weekly).
  - andrewxhill 9y ago
    At least a couple of the guys I work with have gotten help from your team on understanding it all. We used it to get https://github.com/textileio/textile-go https://github.com/textileio/textile-go off the ground. Def not possible with ob-go.
    - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
      What is it?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
snowpanda 9y ago
Hey SamPatt, what are the top 3 products being sold on OpenBazaar? Also, does it accept Monero?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Multisig was needed for our escrow and until recently it wasn't in Monero, so it's not integrated yet. Also ideally it would have SPV, but Monero can't do that. But I like Monero and hope it does get integrated eventually. We can't know what the most popular products are because people can engage in trade without the rest of the network knowing about it. If you download the app and look at search results then play around with the filters, you can make some guesses.
  - fwip 9y ago
    What are your guesses?
    - SamPatt 9y ago
      The biggest part of the community is cryptocurrency users so I know some of the sales are related to cryptocurrency swag and electronics. There are quite a few artists on there as well. I know one of the biggest sellers on the 1.0 version was a Dutch man who sold homemade waffles.
stiangrindvoll 9y ago
I know it has been ongoing for awhile, but.. just in case.. cloning the repositories anyway, powerful application like this shouldn't be available only on github.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Clone away! Mirroring or torrenting the packages is also a good idea: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
  - akerro 9y ago
    Putting a mirror in IPFS is a good idea, you can update repo directory anytime.
movedx 9y ago
I'm wondering what the social network equivelant is to OpenBazaar? Is there one that's as easy to setup and use?
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Mastodon is the closest thing I've seen but I've never tried setting it up.
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    Mastodon is federated, yes? I think Diaspora is distributed. But I haven't used either in a while.
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      Yes it is but I've not seen anyone using Diaspora. If I'm wrong that'd be great but I've not seen anything better than Mastodon with any kind of traction.
    - rapnie 9y ago
      I think Scuttlebutt mentioned above is also federated as it needs Pub servers. Also interesting to mention, because distributed like IPFS, is datproject.org and beakerbrowser.com (built on top, decentralized website hosting and browsing). I believe there are some social network projects using Dat as well.. should be on their awesome list on GH. SocialHome.network (federated) is also cool (note: not equivalents to OpenBazaar, though)
      - lifty 9y ago
        Scuttlebutt is p2p, and pubs are not mandatory but are helpful for replicating messages among users when they are online at different times. Each user could run their own pub if they wanted to, for maximum decentralisation while maintaining the asynchronous replication.
        9y ago
djangowithme 9y ago
The website seemed down earlier, and currently its quite slow. Im wondering, if ipfs is distributed then why isnt it able to handle this traffic? Are there more decentralized options?
- tylersmith 9y ago
  The website isn't on IPFS yet. A new marketing site published to IPFS is something we want to do but hasn't been a priority (we weren't expecting to have a big influx of traffic). The application is available on Github[1], and that's the part that uses IPFS. [1] https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
jhoechtl 9y ago
This is great news! I would love to hear comments from Tim Berners-Lee: Is this the decentralized web he envisioned and was recently complaining that it gets increasingly lost? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berners-lee-world-wide-web-net-neutrality https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berne... Lawrence Lessig: About the legal implications in respect to his book Code is Law. https://medium.com/wordsthatmatter/the-neutrality-network-e5d9ecabd544 https://medium.com/wordsthatmatter/the-neutrality-network-e5...
- heckerhut 9y ago
  Lessig: https://youtu.be/pcYJTIbhYF0 https://youtu.be/pcYJTIbhYF0
nikkwong 9y ago
Heard a lot of news about OpenBazaar. Surprised the homepage design is so, well, confusing! If you guys need any help... :) www.beaver.digital
insomniacity 9y ago
> Once you’ve downloaded OpenBazaar, send an email to jenn [at] ob1.io with your ob:// user profile or store address AND your mailing address and we will send you a few of our OpenBazaar promotional items including stickers, pins and some surprises! Uhhhh. Isn't that kind of an opsec fail? I mean, you can always re-register a new profile/store, but still?
- jstanley 9y ago
  If linking your address to your store is "an opsec fail", then yes. If it's not, then no. There are plenty of businesses that are perfectly happy to let people know their address.
tiuPapa 9y ago
This sounds interesting. From what I understand, openbazaar is first a protocol for trade and then a product. So is there any documentation on how can I build something on top of this protocol?
ryanar 9y ago
SamPatt reminds me a lot of Ross Ulbricht[1], the creator of the Silk Road. Ross started silk road using tor and believed this open marketplace to buy and sell anything: drugs, child pornography, guns, bombs, organs, sex workers, etc. would reduce the government's ability to outlaw and let people decide. True Libertarian beliefs. I would recommend to Sam that he reads American Kingpin: The Epic Hunt for the Criminal Mastermind Behind the Silkroad [2] and figures out how far he is willing to go for his beliefs. When national actors get involved, your life can become miserable, you will be watched, followed, drug cartels could go after your family to build backdoors in, NSA will go after you to build backdoors in, there is no limit to human evil, corruption and avarice. Be careful man. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht [2] https://www.amazon.com/American-Kingpin-Criminal-Mastermind-Behind/dp/1591848148 https://www.amazon.com/American-Kingpin-Criminal-Mastermind-...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

512 points by zapita 9y ago

I work on OpenBazaar and I'm happy to answer any questions. The basics: It's a fully distributed network where people engage in trade directly with each other using cryptocurrency. Because there are no middlemen, there are no fees, there is no centralized data collection, there are no account sign ups, and there is no censorship. You can view the server (Go) here: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go And client here: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop

omarchowdhury 9y ago
Why is the website loading so slow?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Top of Hacker News probably doesn't help much! We're in process of changing the website over so it wasn't a great time for a big hug. But the website is mostly a marketing tool and a place to download the installer packages. Which you can find here as well: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
  - rmc 9y ago
    This headline says it's powered by IPFS, and if the website was hosted there, then the site wouldn't suffer this problem!
    - Filligree 9y ago
      It sure would be great if browsers supported ipfs. :P
      - rmc 9y ago
        If you use the IPFS companion extension, then your browser does!
damoonvisuals 9y ago
Hi Sam, How do you intend to prevent sybil attacks on seller ratings? Since there are no account sign ups and subsequent verifications, it would be theoretically possible to create a large number of accounts with fake reviews.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  The honest answer is that we haven't solved the decentralized reputation problem and reviews can't entirely be trusted. There are a few factors that still make reviews somewhat useful though. People can choose to attach their name, and if they are reputable then their review matters more than an anon account. Reviews also can only be left when there is a full record of trade having occurred, and funds have moved (verified on the blockchain), so at the very least an attacker is paying cryptocurrency fees for each false rating. But ultimately there's a lot of work to be done in decentralized reputation. The work of projects like Trust is Risk seems promising (we've supported their efforts): https://github.com/OrfeasLitos/TrustIsRisk https://github.com/OrfeasLitos/TrustIsRisk
  - aomix 9y ago
    Why isn't a basic version of proof of work a reasonable approximation of that for the time being? Ex. to provide a review you must also provide a value that when postpended to your review gives a hash containing some properties that scales with the number of reviews. This doesn't solve decentralized reputation at all but does prevent review bombing.
    - SamPatt 9y ago
      If the buyer leaves a review after making a purchase, that's effectively a small proof of work in and of itself, and you can only leave one review per purchase. We haven't seen review bombing attempted yet, but if someone were willing to pay a bunch of fees then I suppose it is possible to do.
      - IncRnd 9y ago
jmeyer2k 9y ago
How do you moderate the search engine? In other words, people post illegal items on your platform; how do you prevent those items from showing up on the various search engines?
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Currently we have federated search, like BitTorrent, except we have a public standard[1] for allowing anybody to create a search engine that plugs into the client. Every search engine has their own policies and methods for moderation. It's similar to choosing between Google and DDG in your browser. [1] https://github.com/OpenBazaar/obips/blob/master/obip-0002.md https://github.com/OpenBazaar/obips/blob/master/obip-0002.md
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    So if you run an open bazaar server, do you have any control over what content gets federated to your node? In the case of BitTorrent, you are only serving up what you have specifically downloaded. So how do you federate the market listings without turning unwitting users into felons?
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      Just like you described for BitTorrent. Your node only downloads and serves things you have explicitly downloaded/viewed. You can purge that data if you want but not yet remove only specific content.
      - rapnie 9y ago
        the way you describe this (i.e. 'viewed') sounds like an opt-out feature, not an explicit opt-in..
    - SamPatt 9y ago
      This isn't a push network, you only cache and rehost the data that you have requested (by visiting another user's page). And if you visit something you don't want to rehost then you can clear the cache. So yes, users have complete control over what content they are serving.
zethraeus 9y ago
Since there's no censorship, it sounds like if OpenBazaar is successful it will be used to buy and sell illegal things. How do you feel about that? :)
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Illegality and immorality are different, and - speaking personally - I don't have an issue with the platform used for moral but illegal uses. If it helps people get medicine they need then I'm happy for them. People using the tech for immoral transactions does bother me, but we've seen very little of it, and ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it.
  - omginternets 9y ago
    >ultimately I strongly believe the benefits of free trade significantly outweigh the few people who abuse it. Why?
    - SamPatt 9y ago
      I believe in decentralization and the benefits of anti-fragility. Having only a handful of companies in the world exerting enormous control over online commerce is dangerous. The amount of data they control is staggering, especially when combined with data collected from other centralized platforms (social media, the banking system, government surveillance). I don't like needing to ask permission to use those platforms in order to engage in something as fundamental as commerce. Alternatives need to exist, and OpenBazaar is the alternative to the tightly monitored and controlled online marketplaces. The world needs a protocol and network for trade that no one company or government controls. That's OpenBazaar.
      - kennywinker 9y ago
        You said you want a network that no one company or government controls, but it sounds to me like what you actually built is a network for trade that no one controls. What about a network that people could control, but not governments or corporations? That's a technical challenge if I ever saw one.
charlesdm 9y ago
All great, but is there no money to be made? Did you guys build this out of the kindness of your heart?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  No money to be made via the protocol itself, true. But we obviously hope that OpenBazaar becomes widely adopted and we then have a large group of people to sell (optional!) services to. We (the company I co-founded, OB1) already have a search engine for the network and a verified moderators service that helps people know who to trust on the network. As the network grows there will be other services to offer.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Thanks! Good luck
  - roadbeats 9y ago
    How does the search engine work ? (I'm interested building a search engine for IPFS)
- grubles 9y ago
  It's important to note there are plans for the development company behind OpenBazaar to launch a token[0]. [0]https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-launch-layer-two-coin/ https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-la...
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    It's also important to note that distribution plans are not final so there's no reason to believe money will be made from it.
jjeaff 9y ago
How does the recent FOSTA legislation square with this distributed network? I presume that it works similar to the BitTorrent network where there are nodes and supernodes? I also assume that if someone creates a listing, it gets distributed automatically to many different nodes on the network. So if that's the case, and an illegal sex trafficking listing gets created, how do you ensure that innocent nodes or supernodes on the network don't become liable for the criminal listings that may inevitably popup?
- dannyw 9y ago
  OpenBazaar is not like BitTorrent but more like Tor hidden services. As a node, you do not host any content that isn’t yours. When you visit a store, you traverse through the network and communicate directly with the owner of the store. So, the legal liability of each store rests with the store.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    This is not quite correct. It does actually work a lot like BitTorrent. When a node loads content it begins to serve it it to other users as well. This cache can be purged by the user.
    - dexterdog 9y ago
      But isn't it fragmented so it is only serving chunks and not the whole thing?
      - tylersmith 9y ago
        Yes, data is fragmented and served in chunks just like Bittorrent. You might only serve small chunks of any given piece of data, and as a downloader you may be downloading different chunks from different peers.
        mirimir 9y ago
        Are the chunks encrypted or obscured? That is, could an adversary with local access to the node determine what object a particular chunk is part of? How about an adversary that can see traffic, but not the node's storage?
artursapek 9y ago
As someone who works in the cryptocurrency industry, it's refreshing to see someone dedicated to building something actually useful instead of another depressingly transparent get-rich-quick P&D scam. I will download and try OB this week.
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Thanks for the kind words! I hope you enjoy using it.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Glad to hear it, please let us know how it goes. There's a feedback button built right into the client so it's very easy to let us hear your feedback!
  - lovemenot 9y ago
    Same here. I created a few service listings this weekend. I really like the technology (can I use the word "platform" here?) and the vision. I wonder about the business side though. Vendors need many buyers and vice versa, yet download and installation presents significant friction. For OB, what might become a kernel of serious market activity as collectibles apparently was for eBay in their early days? I believe you are targeting Crypto trading, right?
- grubles 9y ago
  It's interesting to note that the submitted blog post has no mention of the plans to launch a token[0]. [0]https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-launch-layer-two-coin/ https://www.coindesk.com/token-summit-surprise-openbazaar-la...
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Well the submitted blog post is old and predates our curation token plans so it's not really weird. A token will never be required to use the protocol. Even if we tried to make it work that way we'd be forked because it's fundamentally unnecessary for the base protocol.
hiccuphippo 9y ago
How do buyers make sure sellers are not scamming them?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  There is a system for dispute resolution. Both parties agree to use a third party, called a moderator, who will settle the dispute if either party is dissatisfied. The cryptocurrency isn't sent directly to the seller, but it goes into a 2-of-3 multisig account. That requires any two of the parties to release the funds. Most of the time the buyer and seller are happy and release the funds when the transaction is completed, but if either party is unhappy then they open a dispute and the moderator gets involved. He / she then joins with the winning party to move the funds. Moderators are very important in the system and it's important that people choose trustworthy ones, so my company OB1 offers a service where we vet moderators so people know who to choose. https://ob1.io/verified-moderators.html https://ob1.io/verified-moderators.html
  - lucasverra 9y ago
    you should check on Kleros.io for a real focused startup on that subject
oldgun 9y ago
What's the vision and mission of OpenBazaar? Do you think it's going to be significantly scalable and disruptive?
pbreit 9y ago
Any ideas on how much sales volume there is?
mirimir 9y ago
How is integration with Tor? Can nodes be onion services?
- tylersmith 9y ago
  Yes, when starting in Tor-mode OpenBazaar creates a new hidden service.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Very cool! It was iffy, the last time I checked. But that was many months ago. So just as with IPFS, there can be OpenBazaar branches in Tor onion space. But those nodes are only accessible for users in Tor-mode, right? Or are there gateways? Edit: https://news.bitcoin.com/openbazaar-2-0-beta-launches-with-tor-offline-stores-bitcoin-cash-and-segwit/ https://news.bitcoin.com/openbazaar-2-0-beta-launches-with-t...
    - tylersmith 9y ago
      Clearnet can't see tor but tor can see clearnet.
louismerlin 9y ago
Will you be able to delete a user's data to be gdpr compliant, while still using IPFS ?
- patrickaljord 9y ago
  Pretty sure the goal of a distributed technology like that is to not be affected by laws such as gdrp enforced by centralized governments, same for drug laws etc.
  - germanier 9y ago
    Yes, but "We put extra in effort into breaking the law." is among the worst possible things you can say to a court. That one is unable to fulfill their obligations because it's impossible by their own choice of technology is not an excuse. A user of such technology is still affected by laws if they ever get hands on them. This removes the incentive to use the technology apart from those that specifically (or by negligence) are out to break that law. I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally.
    - hapnin 9y ago
      > I wouldn't want to attach my name to anything that I know will have major consequences for me personally. It's a good thing for all of us that Phil Zimmermann didn't feel that way.
      - pjc50 9y ago
        Phil Zimmermann didn't actually do anything illegal, if we believe that the export of PGP was done by other people.
        hapnin 9y ago
        He knew he'd be targeted (and he was), legal or not. It's probably why whoever wrote Bitcoin used a nom de chiffere. http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/ http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/timeline/
direengineer 9y ago
Hi Sam, It's a tangential question- What kind of real-world problems do you envisage being solved by blockchain first? ( Ethereum/ Ipfs/) Also, from an proficient and experienced Software Engineer(with backend /infra side of things), what kind of blockchain-based projects would you find impressive to showcase one's skillset?
flexie 9y ago
How do you make money if there are no fees?
- deadbunny 9y ago
  Why do they need to make money?
j0hnM1st 9y ago
Is it possible to extend and add support for other crypto-currencies ?
JeremyBanks 9y ago
How do you feel about inevitably facilitating assassinations and fentanyl deaths?
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  By that logic there are literately thousands of people in the chain of "facilitators" from the people who write cell phone operating systems to the auto dealership who sells them a car.
flyingfences 9y ago
In a blog post from a few months ago [1] your organization expressed lament at the (at-the-time) high Bitcoin network fees and the lack of a usable Lightning Network. Now that LN is entering the late stages of beta development and a proper release is imminent, do you have an estimated timeline for BTC LN integration? [1] https://www.openbazaar.org/blog/openbazaar-bitcoin-fees/ https://www.openbazaar.org/blog/openbazaar-bitcoin-fees/

phs318u 9y ago

Server’s down. Here’s the archive.org snapshot: https://web.archive.org/web/20180326210403/https://www.openbazaar.org/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180326210403/https://www.openb...

ttul 9y ago
Unfortunately, Archive.org does not archive the downloadable installers because of robots.txt. Is there a mirror for these binaries?
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Yes: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
  - ttul 9y ago
    Thank you.
XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
It would be nice to use an IPFS mirror. If still no one has mirrored it on IPFS I'll do it when I get home.

zethraeus 9y ago

Why don't you take fees to support further development?

nightcracker 9y ago
Disclaimer: not associated with OpenBazaar, just a devil's advocate. If Alice and Bob were to trade drugs on my website, and I take fees for that commerce, you can bet that law enforcement is knocking on my door very soon.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  I'm thinking law enforcement will come knocking whether you take fees or not. Especially with the recent legislation. Craigslist took down their personals and they don't make any money off of it.
  - omgbananas 9y ago
    Now we need to make a distributed version of Craigslist.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Note that OpenBazar is not a website. It's open source software you download to your machine and it connects you directly to the network. There is no company or organization running a server that is hosting stores; it's completely distributed.
tylersmith 9y ago
Most development is sponsored by OB1 (where I work). We have raised money from investors like A16Z, BlueYard, and USV. The project also supports donations. We don't need to skim fees to survive. Edit: Additionally, the aim is to be an open protocol for trade and not just a product. Fees for using an open protocol don't make much sense.
- codetrotter 9y ago

ferrel2078 9y ago

What uses do you see for this aside from illegal drugs, cybercrime, terrorism, child porn and human trafficking? Do you feel you're making the world a better place with this project?

jstanley 9y ago
You seriously can't imagine any uses for an online marketplace that aren't illegal?? Have you bought or sold anything online in the last week? Those things could probably be done on OpenBazaar.
- boomlinde 9y ago
  > You seriously can't imagine any uses for an online marketplace that aren't illegal?? > Have you bought or sold anything online in the last week? Those things could probably be done on OpenBazaar. But will they? I don't think that's a fair summary of the criticism. There are already much more convenient alternatives for legally selling goods and services, using currency that's actually effectively currency, without using some command line tool to run a node. I think there are going to be three types of users: 1) people that are using it out mostly out of interest of the technology, 2) people to whom the platform is ideologically interesting i.e. anti-government types, libertarians, anti-corporate types etc., and 3) users that actually benefit from the anonymity and lack of censorship by selling illegal goods or completely avoiding taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if the last category eventually grows much bigger than the former two. I only hope that it will be mostly illegal goods that don't harm really anyone, like cheap counterfeit consumer crap.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    Would you have said the same things about eBay when eBay first launched? "Who would buy anything on eBay when there are already more convenient alternatives?" ? I buy almost everything on eBay because of the convenience of having the same search system and user interface for every type of thing I want to buy. I'd love to get a similar user experience without having to trust eBay as the arbiter of every single transaction. For example you can't buy knvives on eBay, so when I want to buy a knife I have to go somewhere else. I bought a number plate for my car on eBay recently (old one was cracked), and it all went fine, but when I went to buy another I found the seller's account had been shut down by eBay, for unspecified reasons. On OpenBazaar that wouldn't be able to happen.

jancsika 9y ago

Have you or your team used it to trade anything yet? Would be interested to hear what kinds of things you traded and how the process went. Apologies if user stories are on your site-- I can't access it atm.

SamPatt 9y ago
This announcement was made last November, I'm not quite sure why it's resurfacing now (though I welcome it!), but there's been a substantial amount of trade on the platform since it began. I've been running the swag store and we've sold hundreds of tshirts, pins, stickers, etc. But I always get excited when a merchant reaches out and tells us about the sales they've gotten. No question that it doesn't even have a small fraction of the users of major platforms, we've got a long way to go. But there have been about 42,000 unique nodes on the network since Nov 2017, and I'm pretty happy with that number. It's a fairly radical proposal to have people run their own store on their own computer, but there are at least that many people in the world willing to do it. Just wait until the mobile app and the browser client are finished!
- flyingfences 9y ago
  I actually missed the announcement in November (despite being very excited about the project) so I'm glad it was re-posted.

andrewxhill 9y ago

Congrats! OB is great and openbazaar-go has been a very helpful project for us.

SamPatt 9y ago
I'm glad to hear this, if you're using OpenBazaar in your project I'd love to hear more about it (you can join our developer calls we hold bi-weekly).
- andrewxhill 9y ago
  At least a couple of the guys I work with have gotten help from your team on understanding it all. We used it to get https://github.com/textileio/textile-go https://github.com/textileio/textile-go off the ground. Def not possible with ob-go.
  - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
    What is it?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

snowpanda 9y ago

Hey SamPatt, what are the top 3 products being sold on OpenBazaar? Also, does it accept Monero?

SamPatt 9y ago
Multisig was needed for our escrow and until recently it wasn't in Monero, so it's not integrated yet. Also ideally it would have SPV, but Monero can't do that. But I like Monero and hope it does get integrated eventually. We can't know what the most popular products are because people can engage in trade without the rest of the network knowing about it. If you download the app and look at search results then play around with the filters, you can make some guesses.
- fwip 9y ago
  What are your guesses?
  - SamPatt 9y ago
    The biggest part of the community is cryptocurrency users so I know some of the sales are related to cryptocurrency swag and electronics. There are quite a few artists on there as well. I know one of the biggest sellers on the 1.0 version was a Dutch man who sold homemade waffles.

stiangrindvoll 9y ago

I know it has been ongoing for awhile, but.. just in case.. cloning the repositories anyway, powerful application like this shouldn't be available only on github.

SamPatt 9y ago
Clone away! Mirroring or torrenting the packages is also a good idea: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases
- akerro 9y ago
  Putting a mirror in IPFS is a good idea, you can update repo directory anytime.

movedx 9y ago

I'm wondering what the social network equivelant is to OpenBazaar? Is there one that's as easy to setup and use?

tylersmith 9y ago
Mastodon is the closest thing I've seen but I've never tried setting it up.
- SamPatt 9y ago
  Mastodon is federated, yes? I think Diaspora is distributed. But I haven't used either in a while.
  - tylersmith 9y ago
    Yes it is but I've not seen anyone using Diaspora. If I'm wrong that'd be great but I've not seen anything better than Mastodon with any kind of traction.
  - rapnie 9y ago
    I think Scuttlebutt mentioned above is also federated as it needs Pub servers. Also interesting to mention, because distributed like IPFS, is datproject.org and beakerbrowser.com (built on top, decentralized website hosting and browsing). I believe there are some social network projects using Dat as well.. should be on their awesome list on GH. SocialHome.network (federated) is also cool (note: not equivalents to OpenBazaar, though)
    - lifty 9y ago
      Scuttlebutt is p2p, and pubs are not mandatory but are helpful for replicating messages among users when they are online at different times. Each user could run their own pub if they wanted to, for maximum decentralisation while maintaining the asynchronous replication.
      - 9y ago

djangowithme 9y ago

The website seemed down earlier, and currently its quite slow. Im wondering, if ipfs is distributed then why isnt it able to handle this traffic? Are there more decentralized options?

tylersmith 9y ago
The website isn't on IPFS yet. A new marketing site published to IPFS is something we want to do but hasn't been a priority (we weren't expecting to have a big influx of traffic). The application is available on Github[1], and that's the part that uses IPFS. [1] https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-desktop/releases

jhoechtl 9y ago

This is great news! I would love to hear comments from Tim Berners-Lee: Is this the decentralized web he envisioned and was recently complaining that it gets increasingly lost? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berners-lee-world-wide-web-net-neutrality https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/15/tim-berne... Lawrence Lessig: About the legal implications in respect to his book Code is Law. https://medium.com/wordsthatmatter/the-neutrality-network-e5d9ecabd544 https://medium.com/wordsthatmatter/the-neutrality-network-e5...

heckerhut 9y ago
Lessig: https://youtu.be/pcYJTIbhYF0 https://youtu.be/pcYJTIbhYF0

nikkwong 9y ago

Heard a lot of news about OpenBazaar. Surprised the homepage design is so, well, confusing! If you guys need any help... :) www.beaver.digital

insomniacity 9y ago

> Once you’ve downloaded OpenBazaar, send an email to jenn [at] ob1.io with your ob:// user profile or store address AND your mailing address and we will send you a few of our OpenBazaar promotional items including stickers, pins and some surprises! Uhhhh. Isn't that kind of an opsec fail? I mean, you can always re-register a new profile/store, but still?

jstanley 9y ago
If linking your address to your store is "an opsec fail", then yes. If it's not, then no. There are plenty of businesses that are perfectly happy to let people know their address.

tiuPapa 9y ago

This sounds interesting. From what I understand, openbazaar is first a protocol for trade and then a product. So is there any documentation on how can I build something on top of this protocol?

ryanar 9y ago

SamPatt reminds me a lot of Ross Ulbricht[1], the creator of the Silk Road. Ross started silk road using tor and believed this open marketplace to buy and sell anything: drugs, child pornography, guns, bombs, organs, sex workers, etc. would reduce the government's ability to outlaw and let people decide. True Libertarian beliefs. I would recommend to Sam that he reads American Kingpin: The Epic Hunt for the Criminal Mastermind Behind the Silkroad [2] and figures out how far he is willing to go for his beliefs. When national actors get involved, your life can become miserable, you will be watched, followed, drug cartels could go after your family to build backdoors in, NSA will go after you to build backdoors in, there is no limit to human evil, corruption and avarice. Be careful man. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht [2] https://www.amazon.com/American-Kingpin-Criminal-Mastermind-Behind/dp/1591848148 https://www.amazon.com/American-Kingpin-Criminal-Mastermind-...

deleted 9y ago
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