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But I willingly give my data to Google - they have (for some reason or another) kept my trust. Facebook broke my trust with data I didn't know they had collect

by slenk 9y ago

But I willingly give my data to Google - they have (for some reason or another) kept my trust. Facebook broke my trust with data I didn't know they had collected.

avoidit 9y ago
Let us reserve our judgment on Google for now. But FB is far worse than what you say here. Suppose I group people into 1. Those who actively use Facebook and willingly tell it everything about their lives 2. Those who actively use Facebook and unwillingly tell it everything about their lives (who don't know what data it collects) 3. Those who once actively used Facebook 4. Those who have never created a Facebook (or WhatsApp or Instagram) account The real issue is, FB likely has as much private data about group number 4 as group number 1 because of their shadow profiles (which they euphemistically refer to as "future Facebook users"). And their current or past employees seem to be a little too conveniently blind to this matter. See here for e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16676720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16676720
- dingaling 9y ago
  Google also has a lot of category 4 data; although I don't have any Google accounts I am well aware that they track everything coming from my IP addresses, and from any of their cookies that I inadvertently allow through. All Google's posturing about 'review and manage your data' is meaningless to me in that regard. Why can't I ask them to delete everything associated with my IPv6 block, for example?
adventured 9y ago
I broadly agree. I've been willingly giving Google, via an account, as little data as necessary since I got a Gmail account ~14 years ago. I've never had a moment where I regretted what I've allowed them to have access to. Like most people here with a Google Account, I've disabled as much of their harvesting as I can. I've received an extraordinary amount of value from several of their products - such as maps, search, email, apps - and I never click on ads. The value received versus given disparity is beyond comically in my favor. By comparison at this point I'd rate my value context with Facebook as net negative across my lifetime use of the product. The value has plunged the last four or five years. The first few years I used the product (after it became freely available to the masses), were slightly positive or quasi-benign at worst. The difference in terms of product experience is largely that with Google, I don't deal with other assholes that routinely make my day worse, whether in the form of ugly politics, petty rage, or spam posts (whether commercial or personal posts).
Calvin02 9y ago
What data does Facebook have on you that Google doesn’t collect? Google buys your credit card purchase data. Did you give it that? Why do you think Google wants you to stay logged into Chrome? Let’s be honest here and call a spade a spade. The world is just realizing how ads based business models work and there’s no difference between Google and Facebook.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- slenk 9y ago
  Again, the difference here is that I let Google have this information and I am ok with that because of the services they offer me. I never told Facebook to upload my cell-phone contacts to their servers, where-as with Google, I willingly store them using Google Contacts. It's not so much the data they have, but how they obtain and use the data they have.
- vatueil 9y ago
  > Google buys your credit card purchase data. A more accurate explanation of the scare quote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16698587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16698587 > IIRC, this was announced as part of a program that uses double-blinded crypto that allows google to perform matching against this data in aggregate (Set intersection knowledge), but not individually identity of what a given user purchased, at the same time preventing the merchants from learning the identities of individuals either. > According to what they presented at a crypto conference, they went to great pains to avoid capturing personally identifiable transactions. The overall strategy is that Google Knows = Set A = (all ads shown for user X at Merchant Y) Merchant/Credit Card Proccessor Knows = Set B = (all $$$ paid by User X at Merchant Y), and that it is possible to cryptographically compute sum($$$ of A intersect B) without either side learning Set(User X). > Now whether you believe in the security of the algorithm and whether there are side channel leaks or attacks is another issue. > Edit: http://bristolcrypto.blogspot.com/2017/01/rwc-2017-secure-mpc-at-google.html http://bristolcrypto.blogspot.com/2017/01/rwc-2017-secure-mp... > About 10 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee7oRsDnNNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee7oRsDnNNc

by slenk 9y ago

But I willingly give my data to Google - they have (for some reason or another) kept my trust. Facebook broke my trust with data I didn't know they had collected.

avoidit 9y ago

Let us reserve our judgment on Google for now. But FB is far worse than what you say here. Suppose I group people into 1. Those who actively use Facebook and willingly tell it everything about their lives 2. Those who actively use Facebook and unwillingly tell it everything about their lives (who don't know what data it collects) 3. Those who once actively used Facebook 4. Those who have never created a Facebook (or WhatsApp or Instagram) account The real issue is, FB likely has as much private data about group number 4 as group number 1 because of their shadow profiles (which they euphemistically refer to as "future Facebook users"). And their current or past employees seem to be a little too conveniently blind to this matter. See here for e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16676720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16676720

dingaling 9y ago
Google also has a lot of category 4 data; although I don't have any Google accounts I am well aware that they track everything coming from my IP addresses, and from any of their cookies that I inadvertently allow through. All Google's posturing about 'review and manage your data' is meaningless to me in that regard. Why can't I ask them to delete everything associated with my IPv6 block, for example?

adventured 9y ago

I broadly agree. I've been willingly giving Google, via an account, as little data as necessary since I got a Gmail account ~14 years ago. I've never had a moment where I regretted what I've allowed them to have access to. Like most people here with a Google Account, I've disabled as much of their harvesting as I can. I've received an extraordinary amount of value from several of their products - such as maps, search, email, apps - and I never click on ads. The value received versus given disparity is beyond comically in my favor. By comparison at this point I'd rate my value context with Facebook as net negative across my lifetime use of the product. The value has plunged the last four or five years. The first few years I used the product (after it became freely available to the masses), were slightly positive or quasi-benign at worst. The difference in terms of product experience is largely that with Google, I don't deal with other assholes that routinely make my day worse, whether in the form of ugly politics, petty rage, or spam posts (whether commercial or personal posts).

Calvin02 9y ago

What data does Facebook have on you that Google doesn’t collect? Google buys your credit card purchase data. Did you give it that? Why do you think Google wants you to stay logged into Chrome? Let’s be honest here and call a spade a spade. The world is just realizing how ads based business models work and there’s no difference between Google and Facebook.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
slenk 9y ago
Again, the difference here is that I let Google have this information and I am ok with that because of the services they offer me. I never told Facebook to upload my cell-phone contacts to their servers, where-as with Google, I willingly store them using Google Contacts. It's not so much the data they have, but how they obtain and use the data they have.
vatueil 9y ago
> Google buys your credit card purchase data. A more accurate explanation of the scare quote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16698587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16698587 > IIRC, this was announced as part of a program that uses double-blinded crypto that allows google to perform matching against this data in aggregate (Set intersection knowledge), but not individually identity of what a given user purchased, at the same time preventing the merchants from learning the identities of individuals either. > According to what they presented at a crypto conference, they went to great pains to avoid capturing personally identifiable transactions. The overall strategy is that Google Knows = Set A = (all ads shown for user X at Merchant Y) Merchant/Credit Card Proccessor Knows = Set B = (all $$$ paid by User X at Merchant Y), and that it is possible to cryptographically compute sum($$$ of A intersect B) without either side learning Set(User X). > Now whether you believe in the security of the algorithm and whether there are side channel leaks or attacks is another issue. > Edit: http://bristolcrypto.blogspot.com/2017/01/rwc-2017-secure-mpc-at-google.html http://bristolcrypto.blogspot.com/2017/01/rwc-2017-secure-mp... > About 10 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee7oRsDnNNc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee7oRsDnNNc