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The plummeting costs of technology over time make it a poor barometer for measuring wealth. Instead of mobile phones and TVs, look at bigger items like health

The plummeting costs of technology over time make it a poor barometer for measuring wealth. Instead of mobile phones and TVs, look at bigger items like health care, housing, and education, all of which have gotten more expensive (in the case of education, astoundingly so) even as inflation-adjusted wages have decreased.

stretchwithme 9y ago
Ignore manufactured goods and focus on labor intensive ones? No, I think it all matters. And the fact that technology is getting cheaper IS an improvement in our standard of living. People who can find anything within minutes and talk to anybody anytime ARE wealthier than those who have to spend large amounts of time to do the same things.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Potentially wealthier. If they find within minutes where their opiate supplier is, the new cat video and talk to anybody about what the Kardashians (sorry, Kardashians) were up to... are they really wealthier than when these sorts of things took longer?
  - rout39574 9y ago
    So, let's say that their choice of media consumption indicates, or creates, their not-wealthier. If they can tap into the entire universe of education and experience an Internet connection implies, and pick cat videos... what would you say is the critical link in their paupery? I mean, horses to water and all that, and it's a matter of choice.
    - scythe 9y ago
      The Internet contains information, not education. Even the free academies are not as good as community college. >I mean, horses to water and all that, and it's a matter of choice. No, it's not. Claims like "education" should be based on reliable expectations of effects, not "possibilities" that ignore actual human behavior. The Internet has not actually made people more educated, with few exceptions. Food and shelter are more important than Internet access. Having a house and a steady income in the 1970s is wealthier than sharing an apartment with roommates and working irregularly in the 2010s; we know this because people prefer it, which is the only actual measure of economic anything.
    - jimbokun 9y ago
      We ALL pick the cat videos. Phones and mobile software are exquisitely engineered to be as addictive as possible. And it works. Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something.
      - lsc 9y ago
        >Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something. so... there is something deeply addictive about hacker news... but I personally think? it's the same thing as talking to someone for hours at the pub. same reward mechanism. I mean, the pub closes, and that helps; and most people at most pubs are... difficult to relate to. but I can remember just last month I was hanging out front of my local computer club talking to someone until like 4am. I think the difference here is that hacker news is more like my computer club than it is like a random pub, just because the people I meet are more likely to hold my interest.
      - candiodari 9y ago
        That's the thing about addicts. They almost always pick their addiction (wouldn't be addicts otherwise of course), and aren't very happy about it. > Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something. Yes, like that.
T2_t2 9y ago
> look at bigger items like health care, housing, and education Indeed. Question is, what will a dollar buy you? We have more treatments for illness, we have more educational options, more and more. There is no silver bullet to be sure, and there is no universal upside option, but surely now is a better time to be almost any income percentile, in almost any place on the planet. Where geographically it has gotten worse, e.g. Flint Michigan, I am not sure how we make a world where Roger & Me is released in 1989, and 30 years later, the population is 2/3s what it was then. Part of life is change, and making the world better requires that people adapt with the changes.
myt6fore 9y ago
Perhaps wealth can be described as a measure of being able to adapt to new market demands. Acquiring new skills or refactoring existing ones takes effort, money, time. Those considered poor are devoid of that, bogged down...
Consultant32452 9y ago
There's a simpler test here. If you weren't sure what color your skin would be, what income bracket you'd be born into, what level of health you'd have at birth, or even what country you'd be born in, would you rather be born in 2018 or 1950?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- candiodari 9y ago
  I don't think it's that simple. When I was 15 without a doubt I would have said today. And now at 30 I'm pretty convinced that I would have liked 1950 better. Why ? Because the space and that I know that for 30+ years my life would consistently improve, maybe even 50+ or 60+, including an actual pension etc, even if I was born black. The basic standard would be different, but the constant improvement wouldn't. I mean I'd miss my PS4 and iPad, except of course I wouldn't, not really. Maybe I'll change my mind again.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    71% of the world's population lives on less than $10/day. You won't be getting a pension if you happen to be born black in South Africa in 1950. The world is still experiencing constant improvement. Every day across the world some 130k people achieve basic food security for the first time in their lives. The UN estimates extreme poverty will be gone across the globe by 2030. Not to mention improvements in healthcare, human rights, etc.
- nugget 9y ago
  What about the idea that pride is the most important value to certain people and pride sometimes comes from your wealth, achievements, and performance relative to the rest of society? The paradox would then be that as society becomes wealthier, the gap between the wealthiest people and average people widens in absolute terms, broadly increasing negative emotions. Maybe immersive VR solves this by allowing the mass of people to transition from "lives of quiet desperation" to being rulers of their own miniature virtual worlds.
mdekkers 9y ago
Instead of mobile phones and TVs, look at bigger items like health care, housing, and education, all of which have gotten more expensive Indeed. I can do without my TV. In fact, I turn it on only once or twice a week for a few hours. I can do without a flagship mobile. In a pinch, I can get a cheap-o no-name brand for important calls. Housing, health-care, education - these are all key moneypits that are more expensive, for less in return. Don't even get me started on pensions. For as long as I have been actually aware of pensions as a thing, all I have heard is how the fund was lost, raided, payouts going down, pensionable age going up, and without exception, those tat subside off their pension only live in abject poverty, often making choices between eating or heating.

stretchwithme 9y ago

Ignore manufactured goods and focus on labor intensive ones? No, I think it all matters. And the fact that technology is getting cheaper IS an improvement in our standard of living. People who can find anything within minutes and talk to anybody anytime ARE wealthier than those who have to spend large amounts of time to do the same things.

jacobush 9y ago
Potentially wealthier. If they find within minutes where their opiate supplier is, the new cat video and talk to anybody about what the Kardashians (sorry, Kardashians) were up to... are they really wealthier than when these sorts of things took longer?
- rout39574 9y ago
  So, let's say that their choice of media consumption indicates, or creates, their not-wealthier. If they can tap into the entire universe of education and experience an Internet connection implies, and pick cat videos... what would you say is the critical link in their paupery? I mean, horses to water and all that, and it's a matter of choice.
  - scythe 9y ago
    The Internet contains information, not education. Even the free academies are not as good as community college. >I mean, horses to water and all that, and it's a matter of choice. No, it's not. Claims like "education" should be based on reliable expectations of effects, not "possibilities" that ignore actual human behavior. The Internet has not actually made people more educated, with few exceptions. Food and shelter are more important than Internet access. Having a house and a steady income in the 1970s is wealthier than sharing an apartment with roommates and working irregularly in the 2010s; we know this because people prefer it, which is the only actual measure of economic anything.
  - jimbokun 9y ago
    We ALL pick the cat videos. Phones and mobile software are exquisitely engineered to be as addictive as possible. And it works. Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something.
    - lsc 9y ago
      >Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something. so... there is something deeply addictive about hacker news... but I personally think? it's the same thing as talking to someone for hours at the pub. same reward mechanism. I mean, the pub closes, and that helps; and most people at most pubs are... difficult to relate to. but I can remember just last month I was hanging out front of my local computer club talking to someone until like 4am. I think the difference here is that hacker news is more like my computer club than it is like a random pub, just because the people I meet are more likely to hold my interest.
    - candiodari 9y ago
      That's the thing about addicts. They almost always pick their addiction (wouldn't be addicts otherwise of course), and aren't very happy about it. > Here I am, having this largely pointless Hacker News conversation, instead of completing a Deep Learning course or something. Yes, like that.

T2_t2 9y ago

> look at bigger items like health care, housing, and education Indeed. Question is, what will a dollar buy you? We have more treatments for illness, we have more educational options, more and more. There is no silver bullet to be sure, and there is no universal upside option, but surely now is a better time to be almost any income percentile, in almost any place on the planet. Where geographically it has gotten worse, e.g. Flint Michigan, I am not sure how we make a world where Roger & Me is released in 1989, and 30 years later, the population is 2/3s what it was then. Part of life is change, and making the world better requires that people adapt with the changes.

myt6fore 9y ago

Perhaps wealth can be described as a measure of being able to adapt to new market demands. Acquiring new skills or refactoring existing ones takes effort, money, time. Those considered poor are devoid of that, bogged down...

Consultant32452 9y ago

There's a simpler test here. If you weren't sure what color your skin would be, what income bracket you'd be born into, what level of health you'd have at birth, or even what country you'd be born in, would you rather be born in 2018 or 1950?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
candiodari 9y ago
I don't think it's that simple. When I was 15 without a doubt I would have said today. And now at 30 I'm pretty convinced that I would have liked 1950 better. Why ? Because the space and that I know that for 30+ years my life would consistently improve, maybe even 50+ or 60+, including an actual pension etc, even if I was born black. The basic standard would be different, but the constant improvement wouldn't. I mean I'd miss my PS4 and iPad, except of course I wouldn't, not really. Maybe I'll change my mind again.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  71% of the world's population lives on less than $10/day. You won't be getting a pension if you happen to be born black in South Africa in 1950. The world is still experiencing constant improvement. Every day across the world some 130k people achieve basic food security for the first time in their lives. The UN estimates extreme poverty will be gone across the globe by 2030. Not to mention improvements in healthcare, human rights, etc.
nugget 9y ago
What about the idea that pride is the most important value to certain people and pride sometimes comes from your wealth, achievements, and performance relative to the rest of society? The paradox would then be that as society becomes wealthier, the gap between the wealthiest people and average people widens in absolute terms, broadly increasing negative emotions. Maybe immersive VR solves this by allowing the mass of people to transition from "lives of quiet desperation" to being rulers of their own miniature virtual worlds.

mdekkers 9y ago

Instead of mobile phones and TVs, look at bigger items like health care, housing, and education, all of which have gotten more expensive Indeed. I can do without my TV. In fact, I turn it on only once or twice a week for a few hours. I can do without a flagship mobile. In a pinch, I can get a cheap-o no-name brand for important calls. Housing, health-care, education - these are all key moneypits that are more expensive, for less in return. Don't even get me started on pensions. For as long as I have been actually aware of pensions as a thing, all I have heard is how the fund was lost, raided, payouts going down, pensionable age going up, and without exception, those tat subside off their pension only live in abject poverty, often making choices between eating or heating.