11 ms·

Does the EU even have the authority to break up Google/Alphabet?

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
The EU effectively has the authority to decide who can do business in Europe. So Google/Alphabet presumably could refuse an EU breakup order, but they'd have to more or less exit business in Europe, including all of their various offices there. Both a lot of profit and talent left on the table. Someone much smarter than me would likely have to determine whether stockholders benefit more from a split up company that can do business in Europe, or a unified company that can't.
- Retric 9y ago
  The political backlash could make such a withdrawal rather temporary. Which would IMO push Google into staging such a withdrawal.
  - emiliobumachar 9y ago
    It would be quite a bold move. Alternatives exist, and it's very much contrary to Google's interest that people try it, and people will try it if Google stops working.
    - Retric 9y ago
      These things take some time. They could add a banner saying they are shutting down in say 6* weeks with a link saying they are exploring options while trying to comply etc etc. With 6 weeks being the required notice before everyone is laid off or whatever.
  - flexie 9y ago
    What backlash? Save from a well run PR and lobby campaign by Google, few consumers would mind.
    - qeternity 9y ago
      What percent of the EU uses Gmail? Right off that bat, that's a massive inconvenience.
      - Slansitartop 9y ago
        Could such a breakup order or sanctions be specific to certain businesses? Google has a strong position in the email space, but it isn't anywhere as dominant as it is with search and web advertising.
        qeternity 9y ago
        > Google has a strong position in the email space, but it isn't anywhere as dominant as it is with search and web advertising. What?? The whole point of a breakup is precisely because they are dominant in all of the things you mentioned. Also, my comment is irrelevant if they actually comply with a breakup order. If they don't, and they withdraw from the EU, it doesn't matter how the breakup is structured because they cease doing business in the EU anyway.
        dmitrygr 9y ago
        Spain tried it. It started with a bang like this [1] and ended with a whimper like this [2]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/google-news-spain-publishing-fees-internet https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/google-news-sp... [2] https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/14/spanish-newspapers-want-google-news-back/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/14/spanish-newspapers-want-go...
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        I don't think a minor scuffle about Google News, a product Google's profits aren't dependent on, and user data isn't contained in, is a relevant comparison to discussion of what would happen if a search/email-level breakup was in the cards.
- mehrdadn 9y ago
  What happens to people's emails in Gmail if they exit business in Europe? Surely people won't just be cool with their leaders making them lose access to their emails? EDIT: I guess I didn't mean "what if Google was forced to do this overnight?", but rather I meant more like "couldn't Google make this backfire by doing this overnight?".
  - kokx 9y ago
    I am actually pretty sure that Google will not exit business in Europe. And even if it does happen, I am sure that not all of Google will vanish from Europe overnight and people will be able to download all their data.
    - londons_explore 9y ago
      Google offers Takeout today which lets you download your data. Good luck finding somewhere else you can reimport that and continue working. It might as well be an encrypted blob.
  - taoistextremist 9y ago
    I think it would be more like Google couldn't sell advertising to European companies, nor provide other paid services like licensing and the sort.
  - mbel 9y ago
    It probably wouldn't happen over night, there would be some time to get data out of google. Taking into account that gmail is still accessible by IMAP I guess there would be a plenty of other providers who would offer transfer of your emails from Google to a new email account.
  - throwaway4719 9y ago
    That's one part of the negotiation puzzle. EU would want it's citizens to retain access to their google-hosted emails. Legally speaking, I'm sure there's plenty of ways the EU can force Google to do things it currently does not want to do. I'd say the EU has lots of negotional angles currently to win things from Google. That is kind of what you get when you have more or less universal legislation power over 40% or so of the world's purchasing power (please correct me, I just bullshitted that guess). And that, alas, was also a large part of why the EU was born. So now we'll will reap the benefits. If I could say anything to our EU negotiators in this case, it would be: stay brave.
bluGill 9y ago
Probably not directly. Indirectly though that can do lots of things. Google will find it hard to sell ads if their salesmen are not allowed to physically enter the EU (and the ones currently in the EU are told their job is illegal - though how that works is an open question). In short the EU do lots of things to harass the EU operations until they decide they have to break up.
citilife 9y ago
I don't think they really can. Effectively, they'd have to block Google in the EU. Otherwise, Google can technically just stay in the U.S. and sell services. Ad's don't have to be location based, pretty sure a lot of advertising is elicit materials (such as porn) anyway - which already may not be allowed. Unless you stop people from just heading to the top search engine in the world, they'll keep using it.
- kuschku 9y ago
  There’s a simple trick known as asking the banks where Google keeps their money to freeze those assets.
  - cf498 9y ago
    And that place is called the US. This didnt even work when it was simply a question of having transnational companies on the level of facebook having to pay taxes.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      And then there’s other solutions you can do. E.g., seizing Google’s copyrights and patents, and selling EU usage rights for them. Or seizing the physical hardware, and selling them (and the software on them) off. There’s many many solutions here. In the past, european governments have already seized airplanes from airlines upon landing, and threatened to auction them off, to pay a single unpaid $500 ticket return fine.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - protomyth 9y ago
        > E.g., seizing Google’s copyrights and patents, and selling EU usage rights for them. Or seizing the physical hardware, and selling them (and the software on them) off. The retaliation from the US government on that one would be pretty epic. I wouldn't want to be an owner of a patent heavy European company at that point. Our current President is quite familiar with eminent domain.
dragonwriter 9y ago
The EU has the authority to break up the Alphabet subsidiaries (including indirect subsidiaries) operating in the EU, and the authority to require a breakup as condition of allowing any of the rest of Alphabet to do business in any form in the EU.
cryptonector 9y ago
It can ban them from operating in the EU unless they break up. The U.S. can also just break them up without a threat of banning them to get there. But certainly the EU have plenty of leverage.

The EU effectively has the authority to decide who can do business in Europe. So Google/Alphabet presumably could refuse an EU breakup order, but they'd have to more or less exit business in Europe, including all of their various offices there. Both a lot of profit and talent left on the table. Someone much smarter than me would likely have to determine whether stockholders benefit more from a split up company that can do business in Europe, or a unified company that can't.

Retric 9y ago
The political backlash could make such a withdrawal rather temporary. Which would IMO push Google into staging such a withdrawal.
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  It would be quite a bold move. Alternatives exist, and it's very much contrary to Google's interest that people try it, and people will try it if Google stops working.
  - Retric 9y ago
    These things take some time. They could add a banner saying they are shutting down in say 6* weeks with a link saying they are exploring options while trying to comply etc etc. With 6 weeks being the required notice before everyone is laid off or whatever.
- flexie 9y ago
  What backlash? Save from a well run PR and lobby campaign by Google, few consumers would mind.
  - qeternity 9y ago
    What percent of the EU uses Gmail? Right off that bat, that's a massive inconvenience.
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      Could such a breakup order or sanctions be specific to certain businesses? Google has a strong position in the email space, but it isn't anywhere as dominant as it is with search and web advertising.
      - qeternity 9y ago
        > Google has a strong position in the email space, but it isn't anywhere as dominant as it is with search and web advertising. What?? The whole point of a breakup is precisely because they are dominant in all of the things you mentioned. Also, my comment is irrelevant if they actually comply with a breakup order. If they don't, and they withdraw from the EU, it doesn't matter how the breakup is structured because they cease doing business in the EU anyway.
        dmitrygr 9y ago
        Spain tried it. It started with a bang like this [1] and ended with a whimper like this [2]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/google-news-spain-publishing-fees-internet https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/16/google-news-sp... [2] https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/14/spanish-newspapers-want-google-news-back/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/12/14/spanish-newspapers-want-go...
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        I don't think a minor scuffle about Google News, a product Google's profits aren't dependent on, and user data isn't contained in, is a relevant comparison to discussion of what would happen if a search/email-level breakup was in the cards.
mehrdadn 9y ago
What happens to people's emails in Gmail if they exit business in Europe? Surely people won't just be cool with their leaders making them lose access to their emails? EDIT: I guess I didn't mean "what if Google was forced to do this overnight?", but rather I meant more like "couldn't Google make this backfire by doing this overnight?".
- kokx 9y ago
  I am actually pretty sure that Google will not exit business in Europe. And even if it does happen, I am sure that not all of Google will vanish from Europe overnight and people will be able to download all their data.
  - londons_explore 9y ago
    Google offers Takeout today which lets you download your data. Good luck finding somewhere else you can reimport that and continue working. It might as well be an encrypted blob.
- taoistextremist 9y ago
  I think it would be more like Google couldn't sell advertising to European companies, nor provide other paid services like licensing and the sort.
- mbel 9y ago
  It probably wouldn't happen over night, there would be some time to get data out of google. Taking into account that gmail is still accessible by IMAP I guess there would be a plenty of other providers who would offer transfer of your emails from Google to a new email account.
- throwaway4719 9y ago
  That's one part of the negotiation puzzle. EU would want it's citizens to retain access to their google-hosted emails. Legally speaking, I'm sure there's plenty of ways the EU can force Google to do things it currently does not want to do. I'd say the EU has lots of negotional angles currently to win things from Google. That is kind of what you get when you have more or less universal legislation power over 40% or so of the world's purchasing power (please correct me, I just bullshitted that guess). And that, alas, was also a large part of why the EU was born. So now we'll will reap the benefits. If I could say anything to our EU negotiators in this case, it would be: stay brave.

bluGill 9y ago

Probably not directly. Indirectly though that can do lots of things. Google will find it hard to sell ads if their salesmen are not allowed to physically enter the EU (and the ones currently in the EU are told their job is illegal - though how that works is an open question). In short the EU do lots of things to harass the EU operations until they decide they have to break up.

citilife 9y ago

I don't think they really can. Effectively, they'd have to block Google in the EU. Otherwise, Google can technically just stay in the U.S. and sell services. Ad's don't have to be location based, pretty sure a lot of advertising is elicit materials (such as porn) anyway - which already may not be allowed. Unless you stop people from just heading to the top search engine in the world, they'll keep using it.

kuschku 9y ago
There’s a simple trick known as asking the banks where Google keeps their money to freeze those assets.
- cf498 9y ago
  And that place is called the US. This didnt even work when it was simply a question of having transnational companies on the level of facebook having to pay taxes.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    And then there’s other solutions you can do. E.g., seizing Google’s copyrights and patents, and selling EU usage rights for them. Or seizing the physical hardware, and selling them (and the software on them) off. There’s many many solutions here. In the past, european governments have already seized airplanes from airlines upon landing, and threatened to auction them off, to pay a single unpaid $500 ticket return fine.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - protomyth 9y ago
      > E.g., seizing Google’s copyrights and patents, and selling EU usage rights for them. Or seizing the physical hardware, and selling them (and the software on them) off. The retaliation from the US government on that one would be pretty epic. I wouldn't want to be an owner of a patent heavy European company at that point. Our current President is quite familiar with eminent domain.

dragonwriter 9y ago

The EU has the authority to break up the Alphabet subsidiaries (including indirect subsidiaries) operating in the EU, and the authority to require a breakup as condition of allowing any of the rest of Alphabet to do business in any form in the EU.

cryptonector 9y ago

It can ban them from operating in the EU unless they break up. The U.S. can also just break them up without a threat of banning them to get there. But certainly the EU have plenty of leverage.