9 ms·

Landfills – a future source of raw materials

150 points by jwilk 9y ago

dawnerd 9y ago
This is already happening and has been for a while. Not entirely sure why this is somehow a new thought, people have been proposing it for a long time, just few companies want to get their hands dirty. https://www.triplepundit.com/2011/09/belgian-company-leads-landfill-mining/ https://www.triplepundit.com/2011/09/belgian-company-leads-l...
- icebraining 9y ago
  In fact, the International Symposium on Enhanced Landfill Mining is already in its fourth edition. http://elfm.eu/ http://elfm.eu/ https://www.eurelco.org/ https://www.eurelco.org/
  - chillingeffect 9y ago
    University marketing to an unaware public. The dissertation [1] is a collection of four papers on the focused topic of heavy metal values and safety in recovery. At least now we'll maybe have less bragging about not putting materials into landfills! [2] [1] http://lnu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D&c=6&af=%5B%5D&searchType=SIMPLE&sortOrder2=title_sort_asc&query=yahya+jani&language=en&pid=diva2%3A1174786&aq=%5B%5B%5D%5D&sf=all&aqe=%5B%5D&sortOrder=author_sort_asc&onlyFullText=false&noOfRows=50&dswid=2506 http://lnu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sweden-s-recycling-is-so-revolutionary-the-country-has-run-out-of-rubbish-a7462976.html https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sweden-s-recycling...
kragen 9y ago
Landfills are the main source of most raw materials in the near future — perhaps 16–64 years out. Here on Earth, with the exceptions of tiny amounts in experimental nuclear reactors, we really only consume helium and free energy. Everything else, well, we just convert it from one form to another. Some of it, like phosphate lost to agricultural runoff, is converted to a much more dilute form, and therefore one much more difficult to recover. But almost any landfill has a higher concentration of valuable elements than the original ore from which those elements were mined. Garbage mining, of course, is nothing new — there are tens of thousands of cartoneros both here in Argentina and in Brazil, the figure of the "rag and bone man" goes back generations, and automotive junkyards are nothing more than open-air landfills to "mine" for specialized parts. But improvements in robotics and AI will make economic the recovery of valuable materials from increasingly dilute waste streams, as well as those that are too hazardous for human mining. Once we have von Neumann probes, it seems likely that we will do some asteroid mining. I don't know what effect that will have on the markets for raw materials, except that it will almost certainly make the platinum group cheaper.
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  In other countries your definition of hazardous is an acceptable risk. My mother tells me stories of people rooting through garbage in the Philippines. I also went to my local freegeek (and won't go back again because I can't tolerate the low quality air). Also, in Ghana a bunch of electronics gets processed by people (and they are quite toxic) from our consumer electronics. From this article it seems like they were able to salvage computers (at a considerable risk) See https://medium.com/@felipearaujo22/i-was-looking-for-africas-biggest-electronics-dump-but-found-a-community-of-creators-instead-654027ce5c5b https://medium.com/@felipearaujo22/i-was-looking-for-africas... I don't know why people throw away their consumer electronics. I got an Original iPhone for $5 and sold it back to AT&T for $100 trade in credit (this was in 2012). I also used the phone on their 2G network for six months and connected to local WiFi.
  - kragen 9y ago
    There are different levels of hazard. Reprocessing electronics is not as bad as finding electronics amongst used hypodermics and discarded rat poison. What do you think AT&T did with the Original iPhone?
    - zitterbewegung 9y ago
      I have no idea. The purpose of the offer was to get rid of 2G cell phones of their network.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    That level of risk, and cheap labour, makes mining landfill easier to do. Here's an example of recovering gold from MLCC (a type of surface mount capacitor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o
- kiba 9y ago
  Doesn't stuff get lost in the ocean floor due to runoff where it is currently uneconomical to mine?
- 9y ago
chrisseaton 9y ago
Reminds me of the recent article about people sourcing food from landfill. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-42990661/how-meat-is-recycled-and-sold-to-the-poor http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-42990661/how-meat-is...
- flor1s 9y ago
  So much food is thrown away by grocery stores on the expiration date or just the day after. Usually you can eat that for a few more days, but grocery stores do not want to take the risk of selling it.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    They cant even take the risk because you know, its illegal.
    - distances 9y ago
      That's why in many countries the food gets distributed to those in need just before the date. It's minimal loss to the store as people don't anyway want food dated for tomorrow.
      - jpalomaki 9y ago
        Might be even win for the store as they need to pay for the waste handling.
    - latch 9y ago
      Source? Only a tiny subset of food is legally required to have an expiration date. In the UK this is the "use by" date. In Canada it's the "expiration date." But, you'll find this, or "best by" dates on way more products, because they want to move more product. In the US, for example, only infant formula is required by federal law to have an expiration date (1). The same page states that: "Foods not exhibiting signs of spoilage should be wholesome and may be sold, purchased, donated and consumed beyond the labeled "Best if Used By" date." (1) https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/food-labeling/food-product-dating/food-product-dating/ https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
api 9y ago
I've predicted "remining" for a long time, especially for rare materials.
jacquesm 9y ago
Todays landfills will be tomorrows mines. I've been saying that for many years. One of the first things we will probably recover from them is copper.
- extrapickles 9y ago
  In some locations they recover metals from garbage before it enters the landfill. Methane is also captured and converted into electricity, though it’s more to keep the landfill from exploding and for greenhouse gas reduction.
sixdimensional 9y ago
How about a YC startup around this? I'm probably not qualified to work on this problem but have been thinking about it a lot. "One man's trash is another man's treasure"? I would think the waste management companies have this on lockdown but maybe I'm mistaken. Certainly seems worth doing and there seem to be profits possible in it (not to mention possible social and environmental benefits).
- IAmEveryone 9y ago
  It's definitely a big market, but I wouldn't underestimate existing efforts in the space. China just recently banned the import of bulk plastic, which has had repercussions far and wide, especially in the EU. There are automatic sorting machines, including many by startups. But the problem is quite hard. Ultimately product packaging may need to change, too. Currently, a bag for coffee may contain ten layers of different plastics, metals, and papers, all fused together.
stretchwithme 9y ago
Robots will eventually become as small and as cheap as insects, so it stands to reason that many heretofore expensive activities will become cheap. And there's probably enough energy sitting in the landfill to power resource recovery too. Is this feasible now? I have no idea. But it is inevitable.
- mattmanser 9y ago
  The 2nd book in Becky Chamber's Wayfarer series touches on this, they didn't bother using robots, they just use small children bred for the purpose[1]. https://www.goodreads.com/series/170872-wayfarers https://www.goodreads.com/series/170872-wayfarers [1] Although this is obviously dark, the series is generally feel good sci-fi, enjoyable and worth checking out.
fouc 9y ago
I think it would be a very cool automation problem to solve. Whether it's fresh garbage or landfills, it all could be separated into recycled materials or base components.
Tossrock 9y ago
"Before its acquisition he had been the cofounder and technical director of a small company called Dumpmines, which was in the business of digging up and processing old landfills, recovering the valuable materials that had been thrown away in a more wasteful age. It had been a surprise when Praxis had acquired them, a very pleasant surprise, as everyone in Dumpmines went from employment in a small firm to apprentice membership in one of the richest organizations in the world - paid in its shares, voting on its policy, free to use all its resources. It was like being knighted." - Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars, 1993.
aaron695 9y ago
This is never going to be economical. Currently the world is at a loss to do with non dumped rubbish the Chinese no longer accept. When we have cheap electricity and automation available it will also apply to mining new raw material. The only reason might be to clean up landfill sites. But really dump some dirt on top and plant a forest is probably a better solution in most cases.
kozikow 9y ago
Potentially interesting sidenote: Automatic landfill detection is possible from satellites - I was exploring a potential project working on this problem some time ago, but ultimately decided to not do it.
alkonaut 9y ago
It's interesting that the article comes out of Sweden, who's pretty good at not throwing stuff in landfills. After recycling materials and energy less than 1% of the material ends up in landfills here. The environemntal benefits of incineration (which isn't "recycling") are disputed of course, but at least it reduces need for other sources of energy, and obviously means we don't just aggregate trash like a landfill does.
rm_-rf_slash 9y ago
If anybody is interested in the lives of the people who scour landfills for recyclable/resaleable materual, there was a Brazilian documentary about such folks in Rio - Waste Land. It was very moving. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/
- jwilk 9y ago
  Non-mobile link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/
ape4 9y ago
I suppose its a matter of economics. Eventually raw materials will be too expensive to mine so we'll have to get them from landfills.
chasedehan 9y ago
When I read that the experiments were in Småland, my mind went immediately to Ikea (which is what they call their childcare area).

150 points by jwilk 9y ago

This is already happening and has been for a while. Not entirely sure why this is somehow a new thought, people have been proposing it for a long time, just few companies want to get their hands dirty. https://www.triplepundit.com/2011/09/belgian-company-leads-landfill-mining/ https://www.triplepundit.com/2011/09/belgian-company-leads-l...

icebraining 9y ago
In fact, the International Symposium on Enhanced Landfill Mining is already in its fourth edition. http://elfm.eu/ http://elfm.eu/ https://www.eurelco.org/ https://www.eurelco.org/
- chillingeffect 9y ago
  University marketing to an unaware public. The dissertation [1] is a collection of four papers on the focused topic of heavy metal values and safety in recovery. At least now we'll maybe have less bragging about not putting materials into landfills! [2] [1] http://lnu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D&c=6&af=%5B%5D&searchType=SIMPLE&sortOrder2=title_sort_asc&query=yahya+jani&language=en&pid=diva2%3A1174786&aq=%5B%5B%5D%5D&sf=all&aqe=%5B%5D&sortOrder=author_sort_asc&onlyFullText=false&noOfRows=50&dswid=2506 http://lnu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sweden-s-recycling-is-so-revolutionary-the-country-has-run-out-of-rubbish-a7462976.html https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sweden-s-recycling...

kragen 9y ago

Landfills are the main source of most raw materials in the near future — perhaps 16–64 years out. Here on Earth, with the exceptions of tiny amounts in experimental nuclear reactors, we really only consume helium and free energy. Everything else, well, we just convert it from one form to another. Some of it, like phosphate lost to agricultural runoff, is converted to a much more dilute form, and therefore one much more difficult to recover. But almost any landfill has a higher concentration of valuable elements than the original ore from which those elements were mined. Garbage mining, of course, is nothing new — there are tens of thousands of cartoneros both here in Argentina and in Brazil, the figure of the "rag and bone man" goes back generations, and automotive junkyards are nothing more than open-air landfills to "mine" for specialized parts. But improvements in robotics and AI will make economic the recovery of valuable materials from increasingly dilute waste streams, as well as those that are too hazardous for human mining. Once we have von Neumann probes, it seems likely that we will do some asteroid mining. I don't know what effect that will have on the markets for raw materials, except that it will almost certainly make the platinum group cheaper.

zitterbewegung 9y ago
In other countries your definition of hazardous is an acceptable risk. My mother tells me stories of people rooting through garbage in the Philippines. I also went to my local freegeek (and won't go back again because I can't tolerate the low quality air). Also, in Ghana a bunch of electronics gets processed by people (and they are quite toxic) from our consumer electronics. From this article it seems like they were able to salvage computers (at a considerable risk) See https://medium.com/@felipearaujo22/i-was-looking-for-africas-biggest-electronics-dump-but-found-a-community-of-creators-instead-654027ce5c5b https://medium.com/@felipearaujo22/i-was-looking-for-africas... I don't know why people throw away their consumer electronics. I got an Original iPhone for $5 and sold it back to AT&T for $100 trade in credit (this was in 2012). I also used the phone on their 2G network for six months and connected to local WiFi.
- kragen 9y ago
  There are different levels of hazard. Reprocessing electronics is not as bad as finding electronics amongst used hypodermics and discarded rat poison. What do you think AT&T did with the Original iPhone?
  - zitterbewegung 9y ago
    I have no idea. The purpose of the offer was to get rid of 2G cell phones of their network.
- DanBC 9y ago
  That level of risk, and cheap labour, makes mining landfill easier to do. Here's an example of recovering gold from MLCC (a type of surface mount capacitor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1UoIU6Ef-o
kiba 9y ago
Doesn't stuff get lost in the ocean floor due to runoff where it is currently uneconomical to mine?
9y ago

chrisseaton 9y ago

Reminds me of the recent article about people sourcing food from landfill. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-42990661/how-meat-is-recycled-and-sold-to-the-poor http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-42990661/how-meat-is...

flor1s 9y ago
So much food is thrown away by grocery stores on the expiration date or just the day after. Usually you can eat that for a few more days, but grocery stores do not want to take the risk of selling it.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  They cant even take the risk because you know, its illegal.
  - distances 9y ago
    That's why in many countries the food gets distributed to those in need just before the date. It's minimal loss to the store as people don't anyway want food dated for tomorrow.
    - jpalomaki 9y ago
      Might be even win for the store as they need to pay for the waste handling.
  - latch 9y ago
    Source? Only a tiny subset of food is legally required to have an expiration date. In the UK this is the "use by" date. In Canada it's the "expiration date." But, you'll find this, or "best by" dates on way more products, because they want to move more product. In the US, for example, only infant formula is required by federal law to have an expiration date (1). The same page states that: "Foods not exhibiting signs of spoilage should be wholesome and may be sold, purchased, donated and consumed beyond the labeled "Best if Used By" date." (1) https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/food-labeling/food-product-dating/food-product-dating/ https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

api 9y ago

I've predicted "remining" for a long time, especially for rare materials.

jacquesm 9y ago

Todays landfills will be tomorrows mines. I've been saying that for many years. One of the first things we will probably recover from them is copper.

extrapickles 9y ago
In some locations they recover metals from garbage before it enters the landfill. Methane is also captured and converted into electricity, though it’s more to keep the landfill from exploding and for greenhouse gas reduction.

sixdimensional 9y ago

How about a YC startup around this? I'm probably not qualified to work on this problem but have been thinking about it a lot. "One man's trash is another man's treasure"? I would think the waste management companies have this on lockdown but maybe I'm mistaken. Certainly seems worth doing and there seem to be profits possible in it (not to mention possible social and environmental benefits).

IAmEveryone 9y ago
It's definitely a big market, but I wouldn't underestimate existing efforts in the space. China just recently banned the import of bulk plastic, which has had repercussions far and wide, especially in the EU. There are automatic sorting machines, including many by startups. But the problem is quite hard. Ultimately product packaging may need to change, too. Currently, a bag for coffee may contain ten layers of different plastics, metals, and papers, all fused together.

stretchwithme 9y ago

Robots will eventually become as small and as cheap as insects, so it stands to reason that many heretofore expensive activities will become cheap. And there's probably enough energy sitting in the landfill to power resource recovery too. Is this feasible now? I have no idea. But it is inevitable.

mattmanser 9y ago
The 2nd book in Becky Chamber's Wayfarer series touches on this, they didn't bother using robots, they just use small children bred for the purpose[1]. https://www.goodreads.com/series/170872-wayfarers https://www.goodreads.com/series/170872-wayfarers [1] Although this is obviously dark, the series is generally feel good sci-fi, enjoyable and worth checking out.

fouc 9y ago

I think it would be a very cool automation problem to solve. Whether it's fresh garbage or landfills, it all could be separated into recycled materials or base components.

Tossrock 9y ago

"Before its acquisition he had been the cofounder and technical director of a small company called Dumpmines, which was in the business of digging up and processing old landfills, recovering the valuable materials that had been thrown away in a more wasteful age. It had been a surprise when Praxis had acquired them, a very pleasant surprise, as everyone in Dumpmines went from employment in a small firm to apprentice membership in one of the richest organizations in the world - paid in its shares, voting on its policy, free to use all its resources. It was like being knighted." - Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars, 1993.

aaron695 9y ago

This is never going to be economical. Currently the world is at a loss to do with non dumped rubbish the Chinese no longer accept. When we have cheap electricity and automation available it will also apply to mining new raw material. The only reason might be to clean up landfill sites. But really dump some dirt on top and plant a forest is probably a better solution in most cases.

kozikow 9y ago

Potentially interesting sidenote: Automatic landfill detection is possible from satellites - I was exploring a potential project working on this problem some time ago, but ultimately decided to not do it.

alkonaut 9y ago

It's interesting that the article comes out of Sweden, who's pretty good at not throwing stuff in landfills. After recycling materials and energy less than 1% of the material ends up in landfills here. The environemntal benefits of incineration (which isn't "recycling") are disputed of course, but at least it reduces need for other sources of energy, and obviously means we don't just aggregate trash like a landfill does.

rm_-rf_slash 9y ago

If anybody is interested in the lives of the people who scour landfills for recyclable/resaleable materual, there was a Brazilian documentary about such folks in Rio - Waste Land. It was very moving. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/

jwilk 9y ago
Non-mobile link: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1268204/

ape4 9y ago

I suppose its a matter of economics. Eventually raw materials will be too expensive to mine so we'll have to get them from landfills.

chasedehan 9y ago

When I read that the experiments were in Småland, my mind went immediately to Ikea (which is what they call their childcare area).