6 ms·

If I run a program, I don't expect it to scrape my home folder just because technically my OS granted it permission to do so. And I don't think that is a distin

If I run a program, I don't expect it to scrape my home folder just because technically my OS granted it permission to do so. And I don't think that is a distinction the law makes, either. Intent and explicit consent matter.

gruez 9y ago
Not a fair comparison because there's no sandbox for desktop apps.
- perl4ever 9y ago
  Not everything that's permitted is compulsory. I mean, suppose you frequent a store with a penny tray and you decide, since it's ok to take one penny, why not take all of them? And if you get away with that, why not start cleaning out tip jars? Maybe you will get arrested, but maybe not. I feel like computers are training people that everything you are technically permitted to do is worth trying. I'm not even sure what the rules should be, but rather I feel like losing a common sense of unwritten rules is losing part of what it means (or used to mean) to be human.
- gwbas1c 9y ago
  The app store is front and center on Mac. All apps are sandboxed by default. Steam is another sandbox. A browser is a sandbox. The problem is that it's hard to write an interesting Mac desktop application that runs in a sandbox. The kind of complexities that require a full blown desktop application just don't fit in a sandbox. (As opposed to a game, mobile, or web app.) Whatever runs in a sandbox turns out to be just a prettier version of a web app, or a self-contained game.
  - comex 9y ago
    Nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Steam doesn't actually sandbox the games you download through it.
    - AlexandrB 9y ago
      Nope, not at all. In fact many games on Steam come with their own additional invasive DRM schemes that do all kinds of things you wouldn't expect.
  - Twisell 9y ago
    I often use Pixelmator and Cyberduck sandboxed and downloaded from the AppStore. I struggle to find out how they are not "interesting" or usable. But I get that it can be hard for developers integrate all constraints of sandboxing. App Distribution on MacOS was always different (even since pre OSX) compared to the rest of UNIX world. The drag-and drop to deploy for instance must seem ridiculous for people used to install via apt-get command line. Yet it’s way more users friendly because it put the burden of complexity in developer hands instead of users’s.
    - gwbas1c 9y ago
      When I watch Mac newcomers try and use drag-and-drop app deployment, I just shake my head at how awful it is.
dllthomas 9y ago
I wonder if there's a reasonable CFAA case here...
Too 9y ago
While i agree with your view here i think app developers have proven over and over again that this is no longer a reasonable expectation we can have as users. We need more and stricter sandboxes for everything.
- harry8 9y ago
  We can wear bullet proof vests every time we leave the house too. Put a few app developers in jail for what they do and render their businesses bankrupt and maybe we don't need to treat our phones as hostile to their owners?
AlexandrB 9y ago
> If I run a program, I don't expect it to scrape my home folder just because technically my OS granted it permission to do so. Back in the day, apps that did this were called spyware and would be forcibly removed by Antivirus/Anti-malware programs. It's incredible that Facebook gets a pass for equivalent behaviour.
- TheKarateKid 9y ago
  > Back in the day, apps that did this were called spyware Right?! Remember when ad/spyware that tracked every site you visited were considered devilish and flagged by virus scanners? Now it's the norm. Crazy.

gruez 9y ago

Not a fair comparison because there's no sandbox for desktop apps.

perl4ever 9y ago
Not everything that's permitted is compulsory. I mean, suppose you frequent a store with a penny tray and you decide, since it's ok to take one penny, why not take all of them? And if you get away with that, why not start cleaning out tip jars? Maybe you will get arrested, but maybe not. I feel like computers are training people that everything you are technically permitted to do is worth trying. I'm not even sure what the rules should be, but rather I feel like losing a common sense of unwritten rules is losing part of what it means (or used to mean) to be human.
gwbas1c 9y ago
The app store is front and center on Mac. All apps are sandboxed by default. Steam is another sandbox. A browser is a sandbox. The problem is that it's hard to write an interesting Mac desktop application that runs in a sandbox. The kind of complexities that require a full blown desktop application just don't fit in a sandbox. (As opposed to a game, mobile, or web app.) Whatever runs in a sandbox turns out to be just a prettier version of a web app, or a self-contained game.
- comex 9y ago
  Nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Steam doesn't actually sandbox the games you download through it.
  - AlexandrB 9y ago
    Nope, not at all. In fact many games on Steam come with their own additional invasive DRM schemes that do all kinds of things you wouldn't expect.
- Twisell 9y ago
  I often use Pixelmator and Cyberduck sandboxed and downloaded from the AppStore. I struggle to find out how they are not "interesting" or usable. But I get that it can be hard for developers integrate all constraints of sandboxing. App Distribution on MacOS was always different (even since pre OSX) compared to the rest of UNIX world. The drag-and drop to deploy for instance must seem ridiculous for people used to install via apt-get command line. Yet it’s way more users friendly because it put the burden of complexity in developer hands instead of users’s.
  - gwbas1c 9y ago
    When I watch Mac newcomers try and use drag-and-drop app deployment, I just shake my head at how awful it is.

dllthomas 9y ago

I wonder if there's a reasonable CFAA case here...

Too 9y ago

While i agree with your view here i think app developers have proven over and over again that this is no longer a reasonable expectation we can have as users. We need more and stricter sandboxes for everything.

harry8 9y ago
We can wear bullet proof vests every time we leave the house too. Put a few app developers in jail for what they do and render their businesses bankrupt and maybe we don't need to treat our phones as hostile to their owners?

AlexandrB 9y ago

> If I run a program, I don't expect it to scrape my home folder just because technically my OS granted it permission to do so. Back in the day, apps that did this were called spyware and would be forcibly removed by Antivirus/Anti-malware programs. It's incredible that Facebook gets a pass for equivalent behaviour.

TheKarateKid 9y ago
> Back in the day, apps that did this were called spyware Right?! Remember when ad/spyware that tracked every site you visited were considered devilish and flagged by virus scanners? Now it's the norm. Crazy.