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"Both the U.S. military and the U.S. Intelligence Community would undoubtedly love to have the ability to direct disconcerting or false messages out of thin air

"Both the U.S. military and the U.S. Intelligence Community would undoubtedly love to have the ability to direct disconcerting or false messages out of thin air at the enemy or even a particular individual, such as a terrorist leader. They might mistake the experience for some sort of divine intervention or a deteriorating mental condition." This is total BS. Successful terrorists leaders, even religious ones, are not clueless primitives - they've grown up with the usual array of technology (even if it's the cheap versions affordable in poor countries), and often make sophisticated user of it when planning and executing their missions. usually sophisticated users of technology, and . Once this project is common knowledge, they'll be reminded that the US knows where they are, but they won't jump to supernatural explanations.

Spooky23 9y ago
Who says this is a technology that gets used alone? See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate
- jMyles 9y ago
  Since the WikiPedia article dosn't say much about the effects of this compound, here's a summary on Erowid: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz_article1.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz_article1.shtml It's the height of shame that the US government has considered dosing people (and perhaps has dosed people) with this compound.
  - flyGuyOnTheSly 9y ago
    Reading that account on Erowid was downright distressing. Iirc, BZ was created following "failures" in the MKULTRA experiments. Scary times.
  - therein 9y ago
    Sounds horrible overall but I found this part interesting. > One intriguing finding is the frequent report by subjects, both during and after recovery from the drug experience, of the illusion of red coloration of the skin, both their own and that of undrugged personnel who are with them. One or two individuals have thought their hands were bleeding when washing them under the tap. Whether this is an optical phenomenon related in some way to engorgement of retinal blood vessels or is central in origin is not known. Reminded me of one's own (and other's) skin looks to be very `crocodile-like` and almost as if you can see all the veins underneath it when one is under the influence of DMT. Found the following to be a quite amusing way to put it: > [The] particular concatenations and distortions of language elements are almost impossible to imitate – they seem to result from an extreme loosening of the entire verbal associative system. As such, they may create a humorous effect,since the shift is so rapid and unpredictable that at times their remarks have the flavor of creativity and wit (the things that subjects say and do, in fact, are often very funny and it is sometimes difficult to keep from laughing at their antics, professional standards of decorum notwithstanding). > During severe delirium, attempts to clarify the intended communication by asking the subject to repeat or explain something are usually futile. It does not do good to say 'What do you mean by that?' because the subject does not know what he said, does not really grasp the question and my not realize what he is saying when he answers.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
galdosdi 9y ago
You're almost right. It would work the first time though, if the military successfully kept the weapon's existence secret till then, and resisted the urge to use it too soon to save it for a pivotal battle. Militaries are well practiced at managing secrets like that.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  Given that we're talking about it on HN, that window might have closed. See also: sound from ultrasound (these already exist to some extent). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound
darkerside 9y ago
Don't underestimate the power of raw emotional reaction over the rational mind. There may be rumors that a tool like this exists, but if a religious insurgent hears the voice of God telling him to lay down his weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if he complied.
- OrganicMSG 9y ago
  If someone is religious enough to attribute a voice with a god and obey it, just because they can't identify the source of the voice, surely they are just as likely to think it is a demon and disobey it?
  - darkerside 9y ago
    Fair point!
doyoulikeworms 9y ago
People aren’t machines. Imagine yourself as a terrorist leader. The US Army is combing the area you’re hiding in and you’re just waiting for an opportunity to slip away to fight another day. The isolation and paranoia are mounting, and you’re wondering why you decided to put yourself and your compatriots through this terrifying time. News from the field: they raided one of your supply caches and captured your closest co-conspirator. What about my family? What would my father think of me right now? And then a disembodied voice gently beckons you to surrender.
- azernik 9y ago
  Sure, it could have an emotional effect - same as loudspeakers, only more intimate. But proposing that someone would "mistake the experience for some sort of divine intervention or a deteriorating mental condition" is a statement about a person's view of the factual reality you live in, which tends to remain intact even in stressful situations. My issue is not with the funding of this project or with its use in counterinsurgency operations; it's with journalism that paints (mostly Muslim) terrorists as superstitious primitives, when in fact they are thoroughly products of modern society.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
    You are right. Once technology is known, people don't see magic. Nobody interprets airstrikes as fire from the gods.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - daveFNbuck 9y ago
    Typical members of modern society wouldn't assume that voices in their heads are being beamed in by the government. It's much more rational to think you have a deteriorating mental condition. If you believe in a personal god that communicates directly with people, that's also a viable option. That's a very common belief in the US.
    - 9y ago
bfuller 9y ago
Maybe not on its own, but if you went out of your way to psychologically fuck with somebody until their mental state started to deteriorate enough, something like this could definitely cause a breakdown. Imagine being kept awake for days because the voices in your head won't stop.
- g0rp 9y ago
  Which is why I have to laugh at the way military dude bro types in all those Active Denial videos are like “yeah, wow, it’s so non-lethal and harmless!” It really doesn’t matter much to me that the Active Denial System is advertised as non-lethal, because any non-lethal system can be pushed into overdrive to inflict an excruciating living hell on individuals pinned down by lethal fire, and weapons like these are usually in the hands of operators with lethal options locked and loaded, and ready to go. So, it’s a small leap of the imagination to consider that these non-lethal options are being developed as a cheaper version of tear gas, to push adversaries into lethal funnels, because lazy troops don’t take prisoners, and bored troops often torture, for information or sadistic amusement. So videos will show up in the distant (or nor so distant) future with people being tied up and subjected to hours of Active Denial beams for sure, and that says nothing about the animal testing that’s already happened. So here’s another weapon you’ll see smoking combatants into fatal funnels. Just because non-lethal options are available, doesn’t mean lethality is off the table. And by the way, wasn’t there some shit like this happening in Cuba recently?
rflrob 9y ago
Have you ever seen a stage magician? It’s one thing to know that it’s not real, but when you’re presented with something that seems impossible, it’s easy to buy in. Maybe you don’t 100% believe it, but if you’re already stressed and demoralized, you’re going to be more likely to do something stupid that gets you captured or killed.
azemetre 9y ago
Have you ever tried a schizophrenia simulator while doing simple tasks? It's extremely taxing, hard, demotivating, and emotional draining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvU-Ajwbok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvU-Ajwbok Here's a video of Anderson Cooper listening to one while doing basic tasks and he struggles immensely. Keep in mind that he is cognizant of what is happening to him and still fails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY These weapons will become mass torture devices that further remove humanity from inhumane acts of war.
- fwgwgwgch 9y ago
  That's a logical bias, if that's how you did psychology experiments you'll be relegated to posting on the hacker news of psychology. There's a reason why most human experts are blind.
- newman8r 9y ago
  also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wandering_Soul_(Vietnam_War) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wandering_Soul_(Viet... But I think the bigger application might be in using this tech to trick the enemy into giving up their position to investigate some weird sound, flush them out of buildings, etc.
MichaelMoser123 9y ago
Taxpayers money at work: one could just throw a bomb at them, once it is known where they are. Can it be that this 'sonic weapons in Havana' scare was all about pushing the profits of some defence contractor? I guess that the real driving force for defence appropriations is fear of the mighty counterpart. Worked so well for the past 60 years.
Myrmornis 9y ago
It’s actually quite funny seeing as America stands out as having a large proportion of deeply religious people.
lsc 9y ago
I think you might be making too much of the connection between rationality and the ability to use modern tools. I don't have a lot of experience with terrorist leaders, but my experience with business leaders is that they are way more superstitious than the average engineer or technician working under them. The leader, in a technical team at least, is almost always the person most vulnerable to irrational thoughts about their own abilities. I suspect this has to do with how much most people value confidence in their leaders, and how much better you are at projecting confidence if you actually have irrationally positive beliefs about your own abilities. Add to that, I'd argue that saying "From my cold, dead hands" to the US military or law enforcement is something only someone who doesn't meet my definition of rationality would do.
- aj7 9y ago
  I think your first two paragraphs were perceptive. They certainly agree with experiences I’ve had but couldn’t articulate. The third paragraph I don’t understand.
  - lsc 9y ago
    I am arguing that fighting the US government with violence is unwise to the point where it indicates a lack of rational thinking: first, the US government is very good at violence, and second because the US government doesn't seem to be so good at responding to non-violent attacks, both in mitigating the effects and in retaliating against attackers. The "From my cold, dead hands" was perhaps a bit of a jab at my own fellow citizens who seem to think that a gun makes you more effective when fighting a enemy so overwhelmingly powerful as the US government. (I mean, I interpret the phrase to mean that they will resist law enforcement officers with violence if said law enforcement officers try to confiscate their guns; it's possible they mean it in a different way, but that's my reading.)
    - aj7 9y ago
      We’re in agreement. The psychological basis of gun fantasy-security is an important issue, since it has put hundreds of thousands of assault rifles in the hands of Americans. The vast majority are responsible users. Just like the vast majority of us don’t get the flu. The minority in each case constitutes a public health risk, which I think, in the case of firearms, is driven in part by fantasy among gun owners.
darepublic 9y ago
Why is the quotation bs? All this research indicates that the US military is indeed very interested in this capability.

Spooky23 9y ago

Who says this is a technology that gets used alone? See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate

jMyles 9y ago
Since the WikiPedia article dosn't say much about the effects of this compound, here's a summary on Erowid: https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz_article1.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/bz/bz_article1.shtml It's the height of shame that the US government has considered dosing people (and perhaps has dosed people) with this compound.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 9y ago
  Reading that account on Erowid was downright distressing. Iirc, BZ was created following "failures" in the MKULTRA experiments. Scary times.
- therein 9y ago
  Sounds horrible overall but I found this part interesting. > One intriguing finding is the frequent report by subjects, both during and after recovery from the drug experience, of the illusion of red coloration of the skin, both their own and that of undrugged personnel who are with them. One or two individuals have thought their hands were bleeding when washing them under the tap. Whether this is an optical phenomenon related in some way to engorgement of retinal blood vessels or is central in origin is not known. Reminded me of one's own (and other's) skin looks to be very `crocodile-like` and almost as if you can see all the veins underneath it when one is under the influence of DMT. Found the following to be a quite amusing way to put it: > [The] particular concatenations and distortions of language elements are almost impossible to imitate – they seem to result from an extreme loosening of the entire verbal associative system. As such, they may create a humorous effect,since the shift is so rapid and unpredictable that at times their remarks have the flavor of creativity and wit (the things that subjects say and do, in fact, are often very funny and it is sometimes difficult to keep from laughing at their antics, professional standards of decorum notwithstanding). > During severe delirium, attempts to clarify the intended communication by asking the subject to repeat or explain something are usually futile. It does not do good to say 'What do you mean by that?' because the subject does not know what he said, does not really grasp the question and my not realize what he is saying when he answers.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

galdosdi 9y ago

You're almost right. It would work the first time though, if the military successfully kept the weapon's existence secret till then, and resisted the urge to use it too soon to save it for a pivotal battle. Militaries are well practiced at managing secrets like that.

whatshisface 9y ago
Given that we're talking about it on HN, that window might have closed. See also: sound from ultrasound (these already exist to some extent). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound

darkerside 9y ago

Don't underestimate the power of raw emotional reaction over the rational mind. There may be rumors that a tool like this exists, but if a religious insurgent hears the voice of God telling him to lay down his weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if he complied.

OrganicMSG 9y ago
If someone is religious enough to attribute a voice with a god and obey it, just because they can't identify the source of the voice, surely they are just as likely to think it is a demon and disobey it?
- darkerside 9y ago
  Fair point!

doyoulikeworms 9y ago

People aren’t machines. Imagine yourself as a terrorist leader. The US Army is combing the area you’re hiding in and you’re just waiting for an opportunity to slip away to fight another day. The isolation and paranoia are mounting, and you’re wondering why you decided to put yourself and your compatriots through this terrifying time. News from the field: they raided one of your supply caches and captured your closest co-conspirator. What about my family? What would my father think of me right now? And then a disembodied voice gently beckons you to surrender.

azernik 9y ago
Sure, it could have an emotional effect - same as loudspeakers, only more intimate. But proposing that someone would "mistake the experience for some sort of divine intervention or a deteriorating mental condition" is a statement about a person's view of the factual reality you live in, which tends to remain intact even in stressful situations. My issue is not with the funding of this project or with its use in counterinsurgency operations; it's with journalism that paints (mostly Muslim) terrorists as superstitious primitives, when in fact they are thoroughly products of modern society.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
  You are right. Once technology is known, people don't see magic. Nobody interprets airstrikes as fire from the gods.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- daveFNbuck 9y ago
  Typical members of modern society wouldn't assume that voices in their heads are being beamed in by the government. It's much more rational to think you have a deteriorating mental condition. If you believe in a personal god that communicates directly with people, that's also a viable option. That's a very common belief in the US.
  - 9y ago

bfuller 9y ago

Maybe not on its own, but if you went out of your way to psychologically fuck with somebody until their mental state started to deteriorate enough, something like this could definitely cause a breakdown. Imagine being kept awake for days because the voices in your head won't stop.

g0rp 9y ago
Which is why I have to laugh at the way military dude bro types in all those Active Denial videos are like “yeah, wow, it’s so non-lethal and harmless!” It really doesn’t matter much to me that the Active Denial System is advertised as non-lethal, because any non-lethal system can be pushed into overdrive to inflict an excruciating living hell on individuals pinned down by lethal fire, and weapons like these are usually in the hands of operators with lethal options locked and loaded, and ready to go. So, it’s a small leap of the imagination to consider that these non-lethal options are being developed as a cheaper version of tear gas, to push adversaries into lethal funnels, because lazy troops don’t take prisoners, and bored troops often torture, for information or sadistic amusement. So videos will show up in the distant (or nor so distant) future with people being tied up and subjected to hours of Active Denial beams for sure, and that says nothing about the animal testing that’s already happened. So here’s another weapon you’ll see smoking combatants into fatal funnels. Just because non-lethal options are available, doesn’t mean lethality is off the table. And by the way, wasn’t there some shit like this happening in Cuba recently?

rflrob 9y ago

Have you ever seen a stage magician? It’s one thing to know that it’s not real, but when you’re presented with something that seems impossible, it’s easy to buy in. Maybe you don’t 100% believe it, but if you’re already stressed and demoralized, you’re going to be more likely to do something stupid that gets you captured or killed.

azemetre 9y ago

Have you ever tried a schizophrenia simulator while doing simple tasks? It's extremely taxing, hard, demotivating, and emotional draining. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvU-Ajwbok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vvU-Ajwbok Here's a video of Anderson Cooper listening to one while doing basic tasks and he struggles immensely. Keep in mind that he is cognizant of what is happening to him and still fails. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY These weapons will become mass torture devices that further remove humanity from inhumane acts of war.

fwgwgwgch 9y ago
That's a logical bias, if that's how you did psychology experiments you'll be relegated to posting on the hacker news of psychology. There's a reason why most human experts are blind.
newman8r 9y ago
also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wandering_Soul_(Vietnam_War) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wandering_Soul_(Viet... But I think the bigger application might be in using this tech to trick the enemy into giving up their position to investigate some weird sound, flush them out of buildings, etc.

MichaelMoser123 9y ago

Taxpayers money at work: one could just throw a bomb at them, once it is known where they are. Can it be that this 'sonic weapons in Havana' scare was all about pushing the profits of some defence contractor? I guess that the real driving force for defence appropriations is fear of the mighty counterpart. Worked so well for the past 60 years.

Myrmornis 9y ago

It’s actually quite funny seeing as America stands out as having a large proportion of deeply religious people.

lsc 9y ago

I think you might be making too much of the connection between rationality and the ability to use modern tools. I don't have a lot of experience with terrorist leaders, but my experience with business leaders is that they are way more superstitious than the average engineer or technician working under them. The leader, in a technical team at least, is almost always the person most vulnerable to irrational thoughts about their own abilities. I suspect this has to do with how much most people value confidence in their leaders, and how much better you are at projecting confidence if you actually have irrationally positive beliefs about your own abilities. Add to that, I'd argue that saying "From my cold, dead hands" to the US military or law enforcement is something only someone who doesn't meet my definition of rationality would do.

aj7 9y ago
I think your first two paragraphs were perceptive. They certainly agree with experiences I’ve had but couldn’t articulate. The third paragraph I don’t understand.
- lsc 9y ago
  I am arguing that fighting the US government with violence is unwise to the point where it indicates a lack of rational thinking: first, the US government is very good at violence, and second because the US government doesn't seem to be so good at responding to non-violent attacks, both in mitigating the effects and in retaliating against attackers. The "From my cold, dead hands" was perhaps a bit of a jab at my own fellow citizens who seem to think that a gun makes you more effective when fighting a enemy so overwhelmingly powerful as the US government. (I mean, I interpret the phrase to mean that they will resist law enforcement officers with violence if said law enforcement officers try to confiscate their guns; it's possible they mean it in a different way, but that's my reading.)
  - aj7 9y ago
    We’re in agreement. The psychological basis of gun fantasy-security is an important issue, since it has put hundreds of thousands of assault rifles in the hands of Americans. The vast majority are responsible users. Just like the vast majority of us don’t get the flu. The minority in each case constitutes a public health risk, which I think, in the case of firearms, is driven in part by fantasy among gun owners.

darepublic 9y ago

Why is the quotation bs? All this research indicates that the US military is indeed very interested in this capability.