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The Bitter Truth of Learning: It’s Tough, Unpleasant, and Often Pointless

207 points by shubhamjain 9y ago

jseliger 9y ago
An excellent point. See also The Case Against Education: https://jakeseliger.com/2018/03/12/the-case-against-education-bryan-caplan https://jakeseliger.com/2018/03/12/the-case-against-educatio.... I'll also observe that many fields have an unpleasant introductory learning curve in which one must memorize lots of random-seeming and unpleasant things, before one can operate fluidly in that field and do anything interesting. That's sort of the opposite of the original author's statement: "Learning is fun, but often as it happens, the fun parts start drying up as you delve deep," but it may be that there are un-fun parts on both sides of the curve, so to speak.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Yeah, in a lot of technical fields in particular--especially early on--you just have to take a lot of facts as given, memorize formulas, etc. because you just don't have the background in that subject or related subjects to understand the underlying mechanisms or derive equations from fundamental principles. For example, as I recall high school physics, you memorized a lot of formulas because most students wouldn't have the calculus background to derive them. I'm not sure what I think of this article though. I read what he's saying as along the lines of a lot of people who find essentially pop science about some subject interesting would find developing true expertise about the topic a real slog. That's doubtless true but there are relatively few things that any of us have the time or interest to go deep on.
- stevedonovan 9y ago
  Thinking here about programming language acquisition. Some languages are harder to learn, and it's not necessarily directly related to the complexity of the language. It is harder to learn Rust than C++, but Rust is simpler - it's just that Rust key concepts have to be internalized earlier (e.g. C++ copies its way out of sticky situations by default and assumes that humans can do their own borrow checking). Python is by no means a simple language but the basic dialect is straightforward and learners get a sense of power early. As a tweet put it about the idea of Rust as a first language for CS students: "Learning curve too steep, no euphoria"
twodave 9y ago
In my own experience as both a young software developer and now as a more experienced leader, the work of learning isn’t unpleasant at all. Is it hard to find the motivation to learn at times? Certainly! But afterwards I’m never regretful because I feel as if I’ve gained a new superpower. I spent the last 3 months or so ramping up with a company working with half a dozen technologies I had no experience with, and today I feel capable enough at each of them that I could run the product myself without too many hiccups (though albeit at a much slower pace). The skill of learning is by far the most valuable in this field.
- domevent 9y ago
  I agree, and I’d add that I find learning to be like any other activity, in that practice makes me better at it. I’m also not infrequently surprised by connections to “useless” learned material that only crops up months or years later. As far as motivation, I think practice helps too; you get used to gathering yourself and pushing forward or you get used to giving up, and I prefer pushing on. I also just enjoy learning, I love making new connections and synthesis of existing knowledge with new information.
  - deleted 9y ago
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- not_a_moth 9y ago
  Yet your anecdote is within a domain you are already familiar with and strong in. Rather, it depends on the difficulty and the how far the material is from your comfort zone. Never studied math? Take on the state of art in AI research. Never played the piano? Learn a Chopin ballade. Never read much? Consume the cannon of a Joyce or James. Extreme examples, yet I believe it applies to formidable gaps within fields too, knowing a number of PhDs and what they went through: learning things that are both outside of your comfort zone and considered difficult will almost certainly require a significant amount of discipline and head-banging.
- westoncb 9y ago
  The main factor I've noticed having an impact on the enjoyability of learning is: do I feel I have to learn the thing, or am I just choosing to? It seems like the unpleasantness emerges from anxiety about potential failure to learn the material. If you don't actually need to (not just in terms of external things, but personally, too), then there is no need to fear failure. The more necessary it is to learn the thing and the more uncertain you are of your capability of doing so, the more unpleasant it's going to be.
angarg12 9y ago
> If you want to learn, you have to try harder. Rather than learning being pointless, I would focus on this. In a world of instant gratification we are fed the idea that if learning isn't fun and easy, then you are teaching wrong. Granted, a lot of material can be optimised, but I concur that people should expect to have to make a bigger effort once you pass the superficial stage.
- ghaff 9y ago
  That's the problem that I've always had with the "learning should be fun" slogan. Yes, a lot of teaching isn't well done and ideally it would be a lot more individualized. But learning a topic to any real depth is also a lot of work which is absolutely not going to be "fun," at least as the term is usually used, all the time.
  - extralego 9y ago
    I have always questioned claims that “learning should be fun” for many reasons, but I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun. The exception I experience regularly involves curiosity. When I am curious about something, learning it is usually fun. But, this is a fairly personal process. I’m not sure it can be inherently encouraged through teaching methods. The Socratic method seems to reflect this notion but is more a useful tool for guidance than for exciting curiosity. I still remind myself regularly that learning without the push of curiosity is necessary, and a path to that next burst of curiosity.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. I also enjoy writing. I can also assure you that looming deadlines are not fun by reasonable definitions of the word :-)
      - 9y ago
everyone 9y ago
I know I'm learning when I get this feeling like.. mental pain. Still, its a brilliant thing to do consistently. Eg. Running is pointless, you're not running away from a predator, or a foot-messenger delivering a message or anything; but you are maintaining your health, fitness and quality of life.
- philipkglass 9y ago
  The paradox of the experience of learning is that I feel drained and unintelligent when I'm actually going through the work to understand something new. It's only some time after I start really understanding something that I also feel the mental expansion from the new skills I've acquired. If I wanted to feel knowledgable all the time, I'd be better off not trying to learn new things other than what I acquire incidentally around my already-honed skills. I've experienced this cycle enough times to know that I should keep going even when I feel worn down. I agree that it's a lot like physical exercise -- it brings tremendous benefits, but it's also unpleasant enough in the moment that it's hard to act in your own best long term interests.
FabHK 9y ago
Like exercise. It's hard, unpleasant while you do it, exhausting, and ultimately pointless. That's not an argument against either exercise or learning though. (Oh, and it feels great afterwards.)
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I would take a pill that will take care of your muscles in background any day when it's offered. I.e. why does it even have to require input from my side? You don't have to train your peristaltics, why are other muscles different? I guess it just boils to a mutation 100 thousands years ago which decreased default muscle power to save on energy, we could roll that back, get extra colories burned as a bonus. Animals don't work out. They also don't push the envelope every day.
  - MrBuddyCasino 9y ago
    One just has to look at Chimpanzees or Gorillas to know that this is true. I suspect that it stops being a signal of sexual fitness though once it becomes effortless, and therefore worthless.
  - TangoTrotFox 9y ago
    Animals constantly 'work out'. If you've ever had an indoor cat they seen as generally one of the lazier creatures but they will every once in a while just spaz out and start bouncing off the walls. It's not just for fun - it's an instinct that helps keep them in shape. It's the same for all animals. They will constantly work out. It looks like play, but it serves a valuable purpose -- somewhat like how young predators will regularly play fight with each other. That's not just for fun. Evolution and life is primarily an optimization game. And our bodies are product of that. When we do things, we tend to become better at them. When we don't do things, we tend to lose our ability to do them well, hopefully in lieu of new focuses. Even the brain works this way - as becomes readily apparent when you age and can see in your acquaintances who continues to work with their brain, and who instead spends their time watching television and imbibing.
    - 9y ago
thriftwy 9y ago
Math and physics are hard[0], but the rest of stuff is fairly easy. You can infer 80% from logic and experience, start learning from a high base. In any area. [0] so you should avoid trying to reinvent the wheel here
- groby_b 9y ago
  Ah. That explains the beautiful explanations given time and again on HN, where somebody utterly clueless derives a field from first principles, and proceeds to make an utter fool of themselves. No, you cannot infer 80% from logic and experience. It might look that way, but mostly you'll be hopelessly wrong and and entertainment for anybody working in that field. Do the hard work, or be a clown. In any field.
cirgue 9y ago
> Learning new things can be exhilarating, but it can get tough, and unpleasant, too. Explanations can be dumbed down, but the effort involved to grow further is unavoidable. Anything rewarding demands something from you, otherwise it wouldn't be rewarding. Pain, discomfort, and adversity are good for the soul. If you want instantaneous gratification without sweat, do heroin or play video games.
- falcor84 9y ago
  Well yes, and it's exactly the same for video games, which almost always are about making the player overcome obstacles to achieve rewards. I'm not sure about heroin, but there's a bit of an obstacle in getting that into one's system too, no? And then usually in getting additional funds to acquire the next fix? Life is a struggle.
  - cirgue 9y ago
    > Well yes, and it's exactly the same for video games, which almost always are about making the player overcome obstacles to achieve rewards. Video games are about creating the perception of challenge and the perception of reward, both of which are calibrated to maximize user engagement and enjoyment. I don't dislike games as a form of entertainment, but let's not pretend they're in any way an analogue of real life.
    - QasimK 9y ago
      Is there a difference between perception of challenge and a challenge? Either way, I do think that some video games are challenging. On the other hand, some games, particularly freemium mobile games really do just hijack your brain.
  - QasimK 9y ago
    I don’t think the reward from heroin is in any way related to the struggle of aquiring it, whereas the reward from the other examples largely comes from overcoming the struggle.
- 9y ago
corodra 9y ago
This just in, water is still wet and cows moo. I don't get the profoundness here. I mean, if you're one of those stereotypical hollywood jocks from the 50s that's never read a book in his life until the age of 60...I mean sure... you found a "bitter truth". Yea, learning at a level beyond your local pub's trivia tournament or beyond the 5 minute youtube tutorial video is difficult and takes time. Most importantly, it takes effort. Always has been, always will be... until we get the Matrix style brain downloads to learn kung-fu. No one great in any field, that's worth looking up to, just dances around saying it's as easy as ordering a big mac from mcdonalds. They have more self-doubt and introspective analysis in an hour than most of the population has in a month, myself included. Plenty of dead ends too when it comes to the path of greater knowledge. Learning and doing new things that you never needed for your goal. Welcome to scientific research of any caliber in any field. If you're lucky, you recorded the Earth shattering kabooms though. If it were easy to be "smart", then don't you think everyone would be "smart". Obviously we all define the terms smart, educated, learned, intelligent and !dumbass differently. But (I hope) you get the point of the context. Anyways, I'm sure as shit late to the party by a few thousand years (at least) saying this since I've been hearing this from the time of... I don't know, forever in any field I gandered into more indepth. To recognize someone else as above average, or at least capable, they have humility and diligence towards educating themselves. Not complaining that it is difficult, but striving towards it because it is difficult. Most of us have heard similar at the projectile level of ad nauseum. Now I'm thinking it's not really said enough if people still think "learning is hard" after the age of 9 is news worthy. Getting really tired of teens with their "unique profound insight" that's been published since Socrates' time.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  to me it's not that learning is difficult, is that society incarnation of learning is a bit blurry if not twisted: in school there's social pressure and single point of explanation for a mass; not optimal but somehow necessary. Then there's competition in jobs. About the pointless part, sometimes learning something means killing its magic. Or at least you end up in plato's cave, with your expertise surrounded by people mania. It's not a great joy to render a piece of knowledge dull. And a meeting point between the last two paragraphs. Society teaches you things so you can work but in the end it's also to help/serve others; which makes your knowledge valuable by giving something to someone. And a lot of value in knowledge is when you can share it.
deleted 9y ago
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crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
If I'm viewing learning as pointless, I'm forgetting about how learning anything is a practice in learning how to learn. The need to learn how to learn is so important and poorly taught in society. There's a great online course on the subject here: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn
iandanforth 9y ago
The complement to this is that after you've learned something it is easy to forget the pain you went through. Empathy can be a powerful tool for pedagogy. If your learner can see that you understand the struggle they are going through it can help remove a layer of shame and self-doubt. If, on the other hand, an educator regularly calls things easy, basic, trivial, or simple (or worse demeans someone for not understanding) the lack of empathy will be apparent and learning will be impeded. One thing Sal Khan has said is that video lessons are uniquely effective because there is no chance the educator will become frustrated with the learner even if they need to repeat the lesson a dozen times. In person and in our writings it can be hard to remember the struggle, but it can be one of the most helpful things we do as we train someone new to any task or concept.
- darkerside 9y ago
  I think there's an inverse to be wary of here. If you keep talking about how difficult something is, and tell someone how this is really complicated, their expectation can shut them down to understanding something that really is as simple as it sounds.
mikekchar 9y ago
When I was teaching English in a Japanese high school the other teachers often took the approach of "This is not going to be fun, but you have to apply yourself in order to get the rewards later on." In my own study of Japanese, I found that I really enjoyed learning -- which was diametrically opposed to my experience of "learning" French when I went to school. 13 years of classes and I still can't speak French. In contrast, I did complete self of Japanese and I'm totally functional in normal Japanese society. Often the teachers would ask me to make an entertaining class, but I eventually decided that the fun of learning would be at least 10x better than any entertainment I could provide. At about the same time I was working with a teacher who urged me to start giving out surveys to my students to find out what they enjoyed most in my classes. Even I was surprised to find that my daily quiz was the most popular element by a huge margin. I completely restructured my classes so that students had much more opportunity to apply their learning, rather than focusing on shovelling an endless stream of content into their heads. I think it's that realisation that you went from not knowing something, to understanding it and being able to use it easily that's fun. Yes, as you get more advanced, there is considerably more grind, but I think if you build techniques to enjoy the process you are going to have much more success. Especially for languages, it's going to take a long time and you have to be consistent. If you are just grinding it out and pushing yourself every day, I think it will be very difficult to make any significant progress. One of the things that I found illuminating was that the satisfaction of my students (as measured by my surveys) pretty much mirrored their performance. The better the average class grade, the more satisfied the students. This is all anecdotal, but at least for me it made up my mind that there is a relationship. All kinds of success is fun and learning is a kind of success. Edit: I should point out that there is nothing conceptually difficult in language learning -- even exceptionally stupid people are fluent in at least one language. So the above may not apply to something that is really difficult as opposed to really big.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  I hated math in high school. Sitting in that desk with an overhead projector and a textbook was torture. I never groked basic trig, just memorised. And then a few years ago I made a dumb little space shooter video game. The trig clicked and I was instantly in love. And then came vectors and I was even more in love. It's left me yearning for the free time to go back to school and very angry about all that missed opportunity in high school. I've wept at the reflection of how awful math class was, and how amazing it could have been.
lewis500 9y ago
This is very true. When I was in grad school I made a group to teach data vis to grad students. The distribution of learning, in retrospect, was super lopsided: almost everyone who did our activities wasted their time; a handful became obsessed and are now professionals who use those skills and many others constantly.
phkahler 9y ago
You turn a T-shirt inside out the same way you do a plastic bag. The fact that there are a few extra holes makes no difference. I suppose someone could bring a whole lot of fancy mathematical thinking to this, but why?
godelmachine 9y ago
The first thing that came to my mind after reading the post was this book - The Usefulness of Useless Knowledge by Abraham Flexner The second thing was - he used "cul-de-sac" instead of "dead end" :)
anon1253 9y ago
There is an important heuristic to make it much more pleasant though: do the things you like and celebrate the successes. Looking back at some of the things I learned, yeah it was tedious and downright frustrating sometimes. But doing these things now I also feel the reward. Pick the things you think are fun and enjoyable, there is no greater frustration than learning something that ultimately doesn't pique your interest. In my case, especially in high school, I disliked learning foreign languages (apart from English, of course), but I enjoyed chemistry and philosophy. Obviously I put more time into the latter, and worked through all the hurdles and headaches, but it was fun getting to know that stuff. I still only speak two languages. If figuring out T-shirt math isn't your cup of tea, then just don't. I often feel that people see hardship as a virtue. You /must/ feel shitty, otherwise you're not worthy. And, I don't think that's even remotely true in the long run. Really my only advice to anyone who wants to learn a new skill: if you start to feel reluctant; just stop. Really. Only do the things you ultimately enjoy. Why put yourself through tedious things in your adulthood. The world is a big place, I'm sure there is something you like doing. Just do that. Don't beat yourself up over it. I've never learned to play an instrument, and suck at countless things; and that's fine. You'll notice that you will quickly become better at the things you enjoy, compared to the tedious ones.
- orev 9y ago
  > Only do the things you ultimately enjoy. Why put yourself through tedious things in your adulthood. The world is a big place, I'm sure there is something you like doing. It’s too easy to interpret that advice as doing things that are easy. Easy things don’t require effort, and people who are not inherently driven to explore or be creative point to advice like this as ways to justify spending all day watching Netflix or posting on Instagram. Those things are easy and give some level of enjoyment, but they are ultimately empty and eventually result in deeper sadness. Hardship is not the right word but struggle is. Struggle is not pleasant but leads to deeper satisfaction, and that’s what people mean when they talk about “hardship” as a virtue.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    Ultimately this whole issue of "what action to perform for deepest satisfaction" comes down to the brain's reward system. Actually tangentially related to ML. I am in the process of withdrawing from opiates that were prescribed for an injury. Over time I realized that my wear-withall to do hard and long term rewarding tasks was being degraded by the opiates. I still have pain but narcotics training my brains' reward system are so much worse than pain can be. We all have seen movies and have that visceral image of the executive or city slicker who does hard drugs but still has drive to take care of their family, pay the bills, and do the hard things -- as if they lived in two worlds and were somehow hardened against mixing the pleasure rewards of drugs and the real rewards of life. Well it is pure bullshit. For only one reason if any: the brain physically changes..no matter how tough mentally a person is. Ultimately, if one doesn't reinforce medium length promises of rewards and doesn't de-emphasize short term rewards like Netflix, drugs, and other consumables..then the brain has much larger of a reward gradient to scale..a steep cliff that is likely to require mental reserves that are likely to be exhausted, failing to push through. The only way to do long and hard tasks that have worthwhile rewards is to...train for them..by consistently going against the empty vapid consumption culture. It is just dopaminergic biology. Don't get used to easy and hollow pleasures. Because though day to day pleasure might be dictated by simple chemical concentrations of catecholamines, happiness is a complex thought..a function of memory and past effort... nothing easy gives real happiness. Only pleasure. And cheap pleasure is something we end up becoming stale and miserable over, wishing we hadn't reinforced our weakness to fleeting and short term, short sighted, moments of incredulity. Happiness comes from knowing we did the hard things that went against our feeble reptilian neurological reward system. That we truly defeated easy and thoughtless inclination. https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/best-life-advice https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/best-life-advice
gmoes 9y ago
So, two points: First of all, clickbaity title as he says it might be "pointless". Secondly he is talking about topology. I find it to be a very hard subject. If you pick up most topology books you will find an area of math that most people have never really been prepared for and the books themselves start with some concepts that are very abstract. Now depending on what you are interested in, Topology can provide many insights into the shapes and constructions of spaces. Things like metric topology tie into how vector spaces are constructed. Things like n-dimensional manifolds can be related to aspects of machine learning. I recommend The Teaching Company’s Shape of Nature videos for learning some general ideas about topology. Just a disclaimer, I am not a mathematician, so I might be off on some my perceptions. Also no pun intended on pointless.
sagefy 9y ago
In "Peak" by Anders Ericsson, he alludes to a few principles that makes learning into deliberate practice: setting small goals, getting expert feedback, focusing and removing distractions, and being somewhat discomforted. This article is familiar to that last point. To get the most out of learning, according to Ericsson, you should be in the 'yellow zone': not where you feel comfortable and easy, but also not reaching fight-flight-freeze mode either. Getting in depth with a subject is painful. And its easy to waste time and effort. But it can be less painful if you're smart about it. If you're tracking your progress, and you're aware what that next 5% looks like, that's much easier than trying to go for 100% each time. Getting feedback is critical too, and having that person help you set short, challenging but achievable goals makes a big difference so you aren't moving too quickly or slowly. Having peers who you can relate with and socialize your challenges with makes motivation easier. And you really need to set a time and place on a recurring basis, where the physical environment sets you up to be successful. Disclaimer: I'm working on sagefy.org
aj7 9y ago
“Ownership not as a percentage of equity, but as a measure of your ability to change things for the better.” This is wishful thinking. This is how you wish the world was, and, as a child, you demand it to be so.
erikb 9y ago
Such a small article about such a big topic. Yes, real learning takes a lot of time and energy. You might think that solving problem X, really solving it, might be done after a few hours. And in the end, after you really done it, you realize you spend two years. However, that doesn't mean it's worthless, or that you should apply it to stuff that doesn't matter (like the math of t-shirt turning). If you do that it's really a waste of time. But there are endeavours that are totally worth it. For instance really spending the time to learn the movements of quick folding t-shirts might bring more order to your life, increase your dressing and save quite some time over the years. And there are other endeavours that are really, really profitable. For instance learning another language well enough to read good books in it. It will not add +X value to your life, it will add another dimension. Think about turning a 2D person from plane world into a 3D person. How much more vast would his understanding of the world be? While the price of learning that much of another language might be incredibly high, the value is even higher. So, how do you discover these profitable learning experiences? By looking at all the Cool New Stuff that all the kids are learning, figuring out what is the "magic ingredient" that enables everybody to just get the job done without learning this one skill that is a lot of work, seemingly has not many benefits, that everybody in the industry should know but for some reason most people don't know. And then, instead of using the Cool New Stuff you go and learn that basic skill. You will be surprised that in the end, when you really mastered that one skill, you are not just able to handle all the Cool New Stuff of the next 10-500 years, you won't even need it to solve your problems. In writing that might be learning all the different words and applications, grammar and punctuation. In software development that usually means studying ascepts of unix (parallel processing, package management, data storage, text processing, binary processing). In business that means learning balancing the books and taxes. In soccer that means shooting straight curves, basic stamina, dribbling. You will be surprised how many partners and competitors you will beat just with mastering these boring basic skills.
DoctorOetker 9y ago
Am I the only one who found the referenced essay by Isaac Asimov on creativity much more interesting than the article? It seems like that essay deserves a HN thread of its own!

207 points by shubhamjain 9y ago

An excellent point. See also The Case Against Education: https://jakeseliger.com/2018/03/12/the-case-against-education-bryan-caplan https://jakeseliger.com/2018/03/12/the-case-against-educatio.... I'll also observe that many fields have an unpleasant introductory learning curve in which one must memorize lots of random-seeming and unpleasant things, before one can operate fluidly in that field and do anything interesting. That's sort of the opposite of the original author's statement: "Learning is fun, but often as it happens, the fun parts start drying up as you delve deep," but it may be that there are un-fun parts on both sides of the curve, so to speak.

ghaff 9y ago
Yeah, in a lot of technical fields in particular--especially early on--you just have to take a lot of facts as given, memorize formulas, etc. because you just don't have the background in that subject or related subjects to understand the underlying mechanisms or derive equations from fundamental principles. For example, as I recall high school physics, you memorized a lot of formulas because most students wouldn't have the calculus background to derive them. I'm not sure what I think of this article though. I read what he's saying as along the lines of a lot of people who find essentially pop science about some subject interesting would find developing true expertise about the topic a real slog. That's doubtless true but there are relatively few things that any of us have the time or interest to go deep on.
stevedonovan 9y ago
Thinking here about programming language acquisition. Some languages are harder to learn, and it's not necessarily directly related to the complexity of the language. It is harder to learn Rust than C++, but Rust is simpler - it's just that Rust key concepts have to be internalized earlier (e.g. C++ copies its way out of sticky situations by default and assumes that humans can do their own borrow checking). Python is by no means a simple language but the basic dialect is straightforward and learners get a sense of power early. As a tweet put it about the idea of Rust as a first language for CS students: "Learning curve too steep, no euphoria"

twodave 9y ago

In my own experience as both a young software developer and now as a more experienced leader, the work of learning isn’t unpleasant at all. Is it hard to find the motivation to learn at times? Certainly! But afterwards I’m never regretful because I feel as if I’ve gained a new superpower. I spent the last 3 months or so ramping up with a company working with half a dozen technologies I had no experience with, and today I feel capable enough at each of them that I could run the product myself without too many hiccups (though albeit at a much slower pace). The skill of learning is by far the most valuable in this field.

domevent 9y ago
I agree, and I’d add that I find learning to be like any other activity, in that practice makes me better at it. I’m also not infrequently surprised by connections to “useless” learned material that only crops up months or years later. As far as motivation, I think practice helps too; you get used to gathering yourself and pushing forward or you get used to giving up, and I prefer pushing on. I also just enjoy learning, I love making new connections and synthesis of existing knowledge with new information.
- deleted 9y ago
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not_a_moth 9y ago
Yet your anecdote is within a domain you are already familiar with and strong in. Rather, it depends on the difficulty and the how far the material is from your comfort zone. Never studied math? Take on the state of art in AI research. Never played the piano? Learn a Chopin ballade. Never read much? Consume the cannon of a Joyce or James. Extreme examples, yet I believe it applies to formidable gaps within fields too, knowing a number of PhDs and what they went through: learning things that are both outside of your comfort zone and considered difficult will almost certainly require a significant amount of discipline and head-banging.
westoncb 9y ago
The main factor I've noticed having an impact on the enjoyability of learning is: do I feel I have to learn the thing, or am I just choosing to? It seems like the unpleasantness emerges from anxiety about potential failure to learn the material. If you don't actually need to (not just in terms of external things, but personally, too), then there is no need to fear failure. The more necessary it is to learn the thing and the more uncertain you are of your capability of doing so, the more unpleasant it's going to be.

angarg12 9y ago

> If you want to learn, you have to try harder. Rather than learning being pointless, I would focus on this. In a world of instant gratification we are fed the idea that if learning isn't fun and easy, then you are teaching wrong. Granted, a lot of material can be optimised, but I concur that people should expect to have to make a bigger effort once you pass the superficial stage.

ghaff 9y ago
That's the problem that I've always had with the "learning should be fun" slogan. Yes, a lot of teaching isn't well done and ideally it would be a lot more individualized. But learning a topic to any real depth is also a lot of work which is absolutely not going to be "fun," at least as the term is usually used, all the time.
- extralego 9y ago
  I have always questioned claims that “learning should be fun” for many reasons, but I think it would be a fallacy to think learning cannot be fun. The exception I experience regularly involves curiosity. When I am curious about something, learning it is usually fun. But, this is a fairly personal process. I’m not sure it can be inherently encouraged through teaching methods. The Socratic method seems to reflect this notion but is more a useful tool for guidance than for exciting curiosity. I still remind myself regularly that learning without the push of curiosity is necessary, and a path to that next burst of curiosity.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Oh learning can absolutely be fun (and exciting etc.) And some types of learning activities can be genuinely fun in the playing a game sense of the word. I just think that there’s a problem with the mindset that if you aren’t loving every minute you’re learning there’s something wrong. I also enjoy writing. I can also assure you that looming deadlines are not fun by reasonable definitions of the word :-)
    - 9y ago

everyone 9y ago

I know I'm learning when I get this feeling like.. mental pain. Still, its a brilliant thing to do consistently. Eg. Running is pointless, you're not running away from a predator, or a foot-messenger delivering a message or anything; but you are maintaining your health, fitness and quality of life.

philipkglass 9y ago
The paradox of the experience of learning is that I feel drained and unintelligent when I'm actually going through the work to understand something new. It's only some time after I start really understanding something that I also feel the mental expansion from the new skills I've acquired. If I wanted to feel knowledgable all the time, I'd be better off not trying to learn new things other than what I acquire incidentally around my already-honed skills. I've experienced this cycle enough times to know that I should keep going even when I feel worn down. I agree that it's a lot like physical exercise -- it brings tremendous benefits, but it's also unpleasant enough in the moment that it's hard to act in your own best long term interests.

FabHK 9y ago

Like exercise. It's hard, unpleasant while you do it, exhausting, and ultimately pointless. That's not an argument against either exercise or learning though. (Oh, and it feels great afterwards.)

thriftwy 9y ago
I would take a pill that will take care of your muscles in background any day when it's offered. I.e. why does it even have to require input from my side? You don't have to train your peristaltics, why are other muscles different? I guess it just boils to a mutation 100 thousands years ago which decreased default muscle power to save on energy, we could roll that back, get extra colories burned as a bonus. Animals don't work out. They also don't push the envelope every day.
- MrBuddyCasino 9y ago
  One just has to look at Chimpanzees or Gorillas to know that this is true. I suspect that it stops being a signal of sexual fitness though once it becomes effortless, and therefore worthless.
- TangoTrotFox 9y ago
  Animals constantly 'work out'. If you've ever had an indoor cat they seen as generally one of the lazier creatures but they will every once in a while just spaz out and start bouncing off the walls. It's not just for fun - it's an instinct that helps keep them in shape. It's the same for all animals. They will constantly work out. It looks like play, but it serves a valuable purpose -- somewhat like how young predators will regularly play fight with each other. That's not just for fun. Evolution and life is primarily an optimization game. And our bodies are product of that. When we do things, we tend to become better at them. When we don't do things, we tend to lose our ability to do them well, hopefully in lieu of new focuses. Even the brain works this way - as becomes readily apparent when you age and can see in your acquaintances who continues to work with their brain, and who instead spends their time watching television and imbibing.
  - 9y ago

thriftwy 9y ago

Math and physics are hard[0], but the rest of stuff is fairly easy. You can infer 80% from logic and experience, start learning from a high base. In any area. [0] so you should avoid trying to reinvent the wheel here

groby_b 9y ago
Ah. That explains the beautiful explanations given time and again on HN, where somebody utterly clueless derives a field from first principles, and proceeds to make an utter fool of themselves. No, you cannot infer 80% from logic and experience. It might look that way, but mostly you'll be hopelessly wrong and and entertainment for anybody working in that field. Do the hard work, or be a clown. In any field.

cirgue 9y ago

> Learning new things can be exhilarating, but it can get tough, and unpleasant, too. Explanations can be dumbed down, but the effort involved to grow further is unavoidable. Anything rewarding demands something from you, otherwise it wouldn't be rewarding. Pain, discomfort, and adversity are good for the soul. If you want instantaneous gratification without sweat, do heroin or play video games.

falcor84 9y ago
Well yes, and it's exactly the same for video games, which almost always are about making the player overcome obstacles to achieve rewards. I'm not sure about heroin, but there's a bit of an obstacle in getting that into one's system too, no? And then usually in getting additional funds to acquire the next fix? Life is a struggle.
- cirgue 9y ago
  > Well yes, and it's exactly the same for video games, which almost always are about making the player overcome obstacles to achieve rewards. Video games are about creating the perception of challenge and the perception of reward, both of which are calibrated to maximize user engagement and enjoyment. I don't dislike games as a form of entertainment, but let's not pretend they're in any way an analogue of real life.
  - QasimK 9y ago
    Is there a difference between perception of challenge and a challenge? Either way, I do think that some video games are challenging. On the other hand, some games, particularly freemium mobile games really do just hijack your brain.
- QasimK 9y ago
  I don’t think the reward from heroin is in any way related to the struggle of aquiring it, whereas the reward from the other examples largely comes from overcoming the struggle.
9y ago

corodra 9y ago

This just in, water is still wet and cows moo. I don't get the profoundness here. I mean, if you're one of those stereotypical hollywood jocks from the 50s that's never read a book in his life until the age of 60...I mean sure... you found a "bitter truth". Yea, learning at a level beyond your local pub's trivia tournament or beyond the 5 minute youtube tutorial video is difficult and takes time. Most importantly, it takes effort. Always has been, always will be... until we get the Matrix style brain downloads to learn kung-fu. No one great in any field, that's worth looking up to, just dances around saying it's as easy as ordering a big mac from mcdonalds. They have more self-doubt and introspective analysis in an hour than most of the population has in a month, myself included. Plenty of dead ends too when it comes to the path of greater knowledge. Learning and doing new things that you never needed for your goal. Welcome to scientific research of any caliber in any field. If you're lucky, you recorded the Earth shattering kabooms though. If it were easy to be "smart", then don't you think everyone would be "smart". Obviously we all define the terms smart, educated, learned, intelligent and !dumbass differently. But (I hope) you get the point of the context. Anyways, I'm sure as shit late to the party by a few thousand years (at least) saying this since I've been hearing this from the time of... I don't know, forever in any field I gandered into more indepth. To recognize someone else as above average, or at least capable, they have humility and diligence towards educating themselves. Not complaining that it is difficult, but striving towards it because it is difficult. Most of us have heard similar at the projectile level of ad nauseum. Now I'm thinking it's not really said enough if people still think "learning is hard" after the age of 9 is news worthy. Getting really tired of teens with their "unique profound insight" that's been published since Socrates' time.

agumonkey 9y ago
to me it's not that learning is difficult, is that society incarnation of learning is a bit blurry if not twisted: in school there's social pressure and single point of explanation for a mass; not optimal but somehow necessary. Then there's competition in jobs. About the pointless part, sometimes learning something means killing its magic. Or at least you end up in plato's cave, with your expertise surrounded by people mania. It's not a great joy to render a piece of knowledge dull. And a meeting point between the last two paragraphs. Society teaches you things so you can work but in the end it's also to help/serve others; which makes your knowledge valuable by giving something to someone. And a lot of value in knowledge is when you can share it.

deleted 9y ago

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crawfordcomeaux 9y ago

If I'm viewing learning as pointless, I'm forgetting about how learning anything is a practice in learning how to learn. The need to learn how to learn is so important and poorly taught in society. There's a great online course on the subject here: https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn

iandanforth 9y ago

The complement to this is that after you've learned something it is easy to forget the pain you went through. Empathy can be a powerful tool for pedagogy. If your learner can see that you understand the struggle they are going through it can help remove a layer of shame and self-doubt. If, on the other hand, an educator regularly calls things easy, basic, trivial, or simple (or worse demeans someone for not understanding) the lack of empathy will be apparent and learning will be impeded. One thing Sal Khan has said is that video lessons are uniquely effective because there is no chance the educator will become frustrated with the learner even if they need to repeat the lesson a dozen times. In person and in our writings it can be hard to remember the struggle, but it can be one of the most helpful things we do as we train someone new to any task or concept.

darkerside 9y ago
I think there's an inverse to be wary of here. If you keep talking about how difficult something is, and tell someone how this is really complicated, their expectation can shut them down to understanding something that really is as simple as it sounds.

mikekchar 9y ago

When I was teaching English in a Japanese high school the other teachers often took the approach of "This is not going to be fun, but you have to apply yourself in order to get the rewards later on." In my own study of Japanese, I found that I really enjoyed learning -- which was diametrically opposed to my experience of "learning" French when I went to school. 13 years of classes and I still can't speak French. In contrast, I did complete self of Japanese and I'm totally functional in normal Japanese society. Often the teachers would ask me to make an entertaining class, but I eventually decided that the fun of learning would be at least 10x better than any entertainment I could provide. At about the same time I was working with a teacher who urged me to start giving out surveys to my students to find out what they enjoyed most in my classes. Even I was surprised to find that my daily quiz was the most popular element by a huge margin. I completely restructured my classes so that students had much more opportunity to apply their learning, rather than focusing on shovelling an endless stream of content into their heads. I think it's that realisation that you went from not knowing something, to understanding it and being able to use it easily that's fun. Yes, as you get more advanced, there is considerably more grind, but I think if you build techniques to enjoy the process you are going to have much more success. Especially for languages, it's going to take a long time and you have to be consistent. If you are just grinding it out and pushing yourself every day, I think it will be very difficult to make any significant progress. One of the things that I found illuminating was that the satisfaction of my students (as measured by my surveys) pretty much mirrored their performance. The better the average class grade, the more satisfied the students. This is all anecdotal, but at least for me it made up my mind that there is a relationship. All kinds of success is fun and learning is a kind of success. Edit: I should point out that there is nothing conceptually difficult in language learning -- even exceptionally stupid people are fluent in at least one language. So the above may not apply to something that is really difficult as opposed to really big.

Waterluvian 9y ago
I hated math in high school. Sitting in that desk with an overhead projector and a textbook was torture. I never groked basic trig, just memorised. And then a few years ago I made a dumb little space shooter video game. The trig clicked and I was instantly in love. And then came vectors and I was even more in love. It's left me yearning for the free time to go back to school and very angry about all that missed opportunity in high school. I've wept at the reflection of how awful math class was, and how amazing it could have been.

lewis500 9y ago

This is very true. When I was in grad school I made a group to teach data vis to grad students. The distribution of learning, in retrospect, was super lopsided: almost everyone who did our activities wasted their time; a handful became obsessed and are now professionals who use those skills and many others constantly.

phkahler 9y ago

You turn a T-shirt inside out the same way you do a plastic bag. The fact that there are a few extra holes makes no difference. I suppose someone could bring a whole lot of fancy mathematical thinking to this, but why?

godelmachine 9y ago

The first thing that came to my mind after reading the post was this book - The Usefulness of Useless Knowledge by Abraham Flexner The second thing was - he used "cul-de-sac" instead of "dead end" :)

anon1253 9y ago

There is an important heuristic to make it much more pleasant though: do the things you like and celebrate the successes. Looking back at some of the things I learned, yeah it was tedious and downright frustrating sometimes. But doing these things now I also feel the reward. Pick the things you think are fun and enjoyable, there is no greater frustration than learning something that ultimately doesn't pique your interest. In my case, especially in high school, I disliked learning foreign languages (apart from English, of course), but I enjoyed chemistry and philosophy. Obviously I put more time into the latter, and worked through all the hurdles and headaches, but it was fun getting to know that stuff. I still only speak two languages. If figuring out T-shirt math isn't your cup of tea, then just don't. I often feel that people see hardship as a virtue. You /must/ feel shitty, otherwise you're not worthy. And, I don't think that's even remotely true in the long run. Really my only advice to anyone who wants to learn a new skill: if you start to feel reluctant; just stop. Really. Only do the things you ultimately enjoy. Why put yourself through tedious things in your adulthood. The world is a big place, I'm sure there is something you like doing. Just do that. Don't beat yourself up over it. I've never learned to play an instrument, and suck at countless things; and that's fine. You'll notice that you will quickly become better at the things you enjoy, compared to the tedious ones.

orev 9y ago
> Only do the things you ultimately enjoy. Why put yourself through tedious things in your adulthood. The world is a big place, I'm sure there is something you like doing. It’s too easy to interpret that advice as doing things that are easy. Easy things don’t require effort, and people who are not inherently driven to explore or be creative point to advice like this as ways to justify spending all day watching Netflix or posting on Instagram. Those things are easy and give some level of enjoyment, but they are ultimately empty and eventually result in deeper sadness. Hardship is not the right word but struggle is. Struggle is not pleasant but leads to deeper satisfaction, and that’s what people mean when they talk about “hardship” as a virtue.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Ultimately this whole issue of "what action to perform for deepest satisfaction" comes down to the brain's reward system. Actually tangentially related to ML. I am in the process of withdrawing from opiates that were prescribed for an injury. Over time I realized that my wear-withall to do hard and long term rewarding tasks was being degraded by the opiates. I still have pain but narcotics training my brains' reward system are so much worse than pain can be. We all have seen movies and have that visceral image of the executive or city slicker who does hard drugs but still has drive to take care of their family, pay the bills, and do the hard things -- as if they lived in two worlds and were somehow hardened against mixing the pleasure rewards of drugs and the real rewards of life. Well it is pure bullshit. For only one reason if any: the brain physically changes..no matter how tough mentally a person is. Ultimately, if one doesn't reinforce medium length promises of rewards and doesn't de-emphasize short term rewards like Netflix, drugs, and other consumables..then the brain has much larger of a reward gradient to scale..a steep cliff that is likely to require mental reserves that are likely to be exhausted, failing to push through. The only way to do long and hard tasks that have worthwhile rewards is to...train for them..by consistently going against the empty vapid consumption culture. It is just dopaminergic biology. Don't get used to easy and hollow pleasures. Because though day to day pleasure might be dictated by simple chemical concentrations of catecholamines, happiness is a complex thought..a function of memory and past effort... nothing easy gives real happiness. Only pleasure. And cheap pleasure is something we end up becoming stale and miserable over, wishing we hadn't reinforced our weakness to fleeting and short term, short sighted, moments of incredulity. Happiness comes from knowing we did the hard things that went against our feeble reptilian neurological reward system. That we truly defeated easy and thoughtless inclination. https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/best-life-advice https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/best-life-advice

gmoes 9y ago

So, two points: First of all, clickbaity title as he says it might be "pointless". Secondly he is talking about topology. I find it to be a very hard subject. If you pick up most topology books you will find an area of math that most people have never really been prepared for and the books themselves start with some concepts that are very abstract. Now depending on what you are interested in, Topology can provide many insights into the shapes and constructions of spaces. Things like metric topology tie into how vector spaces are constructed. Things like n-dimensional manifolds can be related to aspects of machine learning. I recommend The Teaching Company’s Shape of Nature videos for learning some general ideas about topology. Just a disclaimer, I am not a mathematician, so I might be off on some my perceptions. Also no pun intended on pointless.

sagefy 9y ago

In "Peak" by Anders Ericsson, he alludes to a few principles that makes learning into deliberate practice: setting small goals, getting expert feedback, focusing and removing distractions, and being somewhat discomforted. This article is familiar to that last point. To get the most out of learning, according to Ericsson, you should be in the 'yellow zone': not where you feel comfortable and easy, but also not reaching fight-flight-freeze mode either. Getting in depth with a subject is painful. And its easy to waste time and effort. But it can be less painful if you're smart about it. If you're tracking your progress, and you're aware what that next 5% looks like, that's much easier than trying to go for 100% each time. Getting feedback is critical too, and having that person help you set short, challenging but achievable goals makes a big difference so you aren't moving too quickly or slowly. Having peers who you can relate with and socialize your challenges with makes motivation easier. And you really need to set a time and place on a recurring basis, where the physical environment sets you up to be successful. Disclaimer: I'm working on sagefy.org

aj7 9y ago

“Ownership not as a percentage of equity, but as a measure of your ability to change things for the better.” This is wishful thinking. This is how you wish the world was, and, as a child, you demand it to be so.

erikb 9y ago

Such a small article about such a big topic. Yes, real learning takes a lot of time and energy. You might think that solving problem X, really solving it, might be done after a few hours. And in the end, after you really done it, you realize you spend two years. However, that doesn't mean it's worthless, or that you should apply it to stuff that doesn't matter (like the math of t-shirt turning). If you do that it's really a waste of time. But there are endeavours that are totally worth it. For instance really spending the time to learn the movements of quick folding t-shirts might bring more order to your life, increase your dressing and save quite some time over the years. And there are other endeavours that are really, really profitable. For instance learning another language well enough to read good books in it. It will not add +X value to your life, it will add another dimension. Think about turning a 2D person from plane world into a 3D person. How much more vast would his understanding of the world be? While the price of learning that much of another language might be incredibly high, the value is even higher. So, how do you discover these profitable learning experiences? By looking at all the Cool New Stuff that all the kids are learning, figuring out what is the "magic ingredient" that enables everybody to just get the job done without learning this one skill that is a lot of work, seemingly has not many benefits, that everybody in the industry should know but for some reason most people don't know. And then, instead of using the Cool New Stuff you go and learn that basic skill. You will be surprised that in the end, when you really mastered that one skill, you are not just able to handle all the Cool New Stuff of the next 10-500 years, you won't even need it to solve your problems. In writing that might be learning all the different words and applications, grammar and punctuation. In software development that usually means studying ascepts of unix (parallel processing, package management, data storage, text processing, binary processing). In business that means learning balancing the books and taxes. In soccer that means shooting straight curves, basic stamina, dribbling. You will be surprised how many partners and competitors you will beat just with mastering these boring basic skills.

DoctorOetker 9y ago

Am I the only one who found the referenced essay by Isaac Asimov on creativity much more interesting than the article? It seems like that essay deserves a HN thread of its own!