4 ms·

Sorry, I'm a Canadian (of partial Turkish decent, funnily) I don't want our society / police touching journalists that cover protests or other incidents of civi

Sorry, I'm a Canadian (of partial Turkish decent, funnily) I don't want our society / police touching journalists that cover protests or other incidents of civil disobedience or conflict. Journalists stop the powerful from manipulating history and history will be manipulated if they're not allowed to access sit-ins, protests, etc. If they're the only ones trespassing, sure, arrest them. But otherwise let's keep the courts for the actual criminals.

cabaalis 9y ago
I'm a developer, it's still illegal for me to use holes found by other developers. He trespassed on private property, his being called a "journalist" doesn't much change that.
- mattigames 9y ago
  There are many cases where sticking around someone (e.g. a civil activist like MLK) was illegal enough for having a criminal charge over you; but journalist get immunity -to a degree, explicit or implicit- for being so; so yeah I think your analogy here misses the point.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    > but journalist get immunity -to a degree, explicit or implicit- for being so It’s not clear that this is the case in Canada, and your reference of a clearly American example doesn’t really clear that up.
    - mattigames 9y ago
      Canada does have some laws to protect similar issues related to freedom of press (e.g anonymous sources[0]) and some organizations fighting for it[1]. [0]https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/3kp7n3/canada-passes-law-to-protect-whistleblowers-and-journalists-confidential-sources https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/3kp7n3/canada-passes-law... [1]https://www.cjfe.org/ https://www.cjfe.org/
  - valuearb 9y ago
    there is no such thing as journalistic immunity. They are private citizens same as you or me. Laws protecting the press apply to us too.
lopmotr 9y ago
What about criminals who have their friend video their crimes to put on Youtube? Do you want the friend to be let off too? Isis did this a lot. In both cases, the journalist is helping the criminals whose aim is to be publicly seen. It sounds like this guy was sympathetic to the protesters so he probably did help them with his publicity.
- mattigames 9y ago
  Isis also had a lot of non-sympathetic (of them) people filming them; do you want those in jail as well? According to you those journalist are "helping" the criminals; so in your world view journalist should just not cover anything at all to avoid any possible liabilities, yeah no; the rational thing is to err on the other side.
  - cabaalis 9y ago
    We can't create a class of people above the law. Private property rights are just as important to a functioning (western) society as freedom of the press.
    - mattigames 9y ago
      One less person in the property doesn't make the violation more or less grave; you are talking as if the journalist was the only one to enter or like he destroyed something inside the property.
- 3pt14159 9y ago
  Eh, I get the spectrum argument, but if there are real journalists gathered at the gate then its enough for me to say that this was a real public interest story.
- musage 9y ago
  > What about criminals who have their friend video their crimes to put on Youtube? Do you want the friend to be let off too? Isis did this a lot. In both cases, the journalist is helping the criminals whose aim is to be publicly seen. "Embedded" "journalists" also come to mind.
kingofhdds 9y ago
From what I've read, it doesn't look like he was "touched" because he covered the event, but because he, practically, participated in it. I can imagine a situation when someone can do it with the sole intention to provide information which can save somebody from a wrong conviction, for instance, but it anyway would require a due process, and a judge to weigh a motive. You cannot realistically have a blanket legislation immunizing everyone who streams, or records - that would be too easy to abuse. So the case doesn't look like Canadian democracy is in real danger. And, by the way, let's not overestimate the alleged sanctity of journalism: they are humans too, as any of us, and there are numerous examples of journalists distorting facts for variety of reasons, starting from personal beliefs, and ending with bribes.
HenryBemis 9y ago
Work with me on this hypothetican scenario please: I am robbing a pizzeria. The robbery lasts 10 minutes. Next to me for the full 10 minutes is a guy with big camera at hand wearing a vest that writes "PRESS" and is recording the whole thing. Police should not arrest him? In my mind, they should arrest him, examine the evidence (gun from my pocket, pizza slices from my bag, camera from the journalist). I should then receive my 5-to-10. He should receive a pulitzer. But at that time, we should both be arrested. Police will not sentence him or me. Courts will do that (sentence or release). Justice is served in courts. Police should just stick to the basics: Trespass = arrest. Rob = arrest. Irrespective of whether the guy/lady/etc. is a journalist, baker, etc.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Journalists get arrested at protests all the time. The difference is that they’re typically released without charge.
kazinator 9y ago
> actual criminals. Unauthorized entry is an actual crime. If you leave your front door unlocked and I enter your hallway just to admire your collection of shoes for a moment or two, I'm committing a crime.

cabaalis 9y ago

I'm a developer, it's still illegal for me to use holes found by other developers. He trespassed on private property, his being called a "journalist" doesn't much change that.

mattigames 9y ago
There are many cases where sticking around someone (e.g. a civil activist like MLK) was illegal enough for having a criminal charge over you; but journalist get immunity -to a degree, explicit or implicit- for being so; so yeah I think your analogy here misses the point.
- djrogers 9y ago
  > but journalist get immunity -to a degree, explicit or implicit- for being so It’s not clear that this is the case in Canada, and your reference of a clearly American example doesn’t really clear that up.
  - mattigames 9y ago
    Canada does have some laws to protect similar issues related to freedom of press (e.g anonymous sources[0]) and some organizations fighting for it[1]. [0]https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/3kp7n3/canada-passes-law-to-protect-whistleblowers-and-journalists-confidential-sources https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/3kp7n3/canada-passes-law... [1]https://www.cjfe.org/ https://www.cjfe.org/
- valuearb 9y ago
  there is no such thing as journalistic immunity. They are private citizens same as you or me. Laws protecting the press apply to us too.

lopmotr 9y ago

What about criminals who have their friend video their crimes to put on Youtube? Do you want the friend to be let off too? Isis did this a lot. In both cases, the journalist is helping the criminals whose aim is to be publicly seen. It sounds like this guy was sympathetic to the protesters so he probably did help them with his publicity.

mattigames 9y ago
Isis also had a lot of non-sympathetic (of them) people filming them; do you want those in jail as well? According to you those journalist are "helping" the criminals; so in your world view journalist should just not cover anything at all to avoid any possible liabilities, yeah no; the rational thing is to err on the other side.
- cabaalis 9y ago
  We can't create a class of people above the law. Private property rights are just as important to a functioning (western) society as freedom of the press.
  - mattigames 9y ago
    One less person in the property doesn't make the violation more or less grave; you are talking as if the journalist was the only one to enter or like he destroyed something inside the property.
3pt14159 9y ago
Eh, I get the spectrum argument, but if there are real journalists gathered at the gate then its enough for me to say that this was a real public interest story.
musage 9y ago
> What about criminals who have their friend video their crimes to put on Youtube? Do you want the friend to be let off too? Isis did this a lot. In both cases, the journalist is helping the criminals whose aim is to be publicly seen. "Embedded" "journalists" also come to mind.

kingofhdds 9y ago

From what I've read, it doesn't look like he was "touched" because he covered the event, but because he, practically, participated in it. I can imagine a situation when someone can do it with the sole intention to provide information which can save somebody from a wrong conviction, for instance, but it anyway would require a due process, and a judge to weigh a motive. You cannot realistically have a blanket legislation immunizing everyone who streams, or records - that would be too easy to abuse. So the case doesn't look like Canadian democracy is in real danger. And, by the way, let's not overestimate the alleged sanctity of journalism: they are humans too, as any of us, and there are numerous examples of journalists distorting facts for variety of reasons, starting from personal beliefs, and ending with bribes.

HenryBemis 9y ago

Work with me on this hypothetican scenario please: I am robbing a pizzeria. The robbery lasts 10 minutes. Next to me for the full 10 minutes is a guy with big camera at hand wearing a vest that writes "PRESS" and is recording the whole thing. Police should not arrest him? In my mind, they should arrest him, examine the evidence (gun from my pocket, pizza slices from my bag, camera from the journalist). I should then receive my 5-to-10. He should receive a pulitzer. But at that time, we should both be arrested. Police will not sentence him or me. Courts will do that (sentence or release). Justice is served in courts. Police should just stick to the basics: Trespass = arrest. Rob = arrest. Irrespective of whether the guy/lady/etc. is a journalist, baker, etc.

closeparen 9y ago
Journalists get arrested at protests all the time. The difference is that they’re typically released without charge.

kazinator 9y ago

> actual criminals. Unauthorized entry is an actual crime. If you leave your front door unlocked and I enter your hallway just to admire your collection of shoes for a moment or two, I'm committing a crime.