8 ms·

That's a very US centric view, especially: 'Whereas MS degrees used to be a means for departments to begin vetting future PhD students,...' This was never the

That's a very US centric view, especially: 'Whereas MS degrees used to be a means for departments to begin vetting future PhD students,...' This was never the case in Europe, where if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. The PhD, something you did for your mother, or if you wanted to pursue an academic career.

sarreph 9y ago
I don’t understand how the highest voted comment (at this time) in this thread is a user spreading a false notion that ‘if you only have a bachelor [in Europe], people assume something went wrong’. Do they have sources to back this kind of snooty claim up? Anecdotally, the only time I’ve come across this attitidude is when individuals heavily-vested in academia are attempting to stake out the moral high ground.
- maze-le 9y ago
  Exactly, I know plenty of people who spent years in academia, just to get their CS Masters degree. In the end of the day it seems harder for them to get decent (entry-level) jobs, because recruiters claim they lack work experience. Its not impossible mind you but on the surface, it seems harder. I wonder if there are recruiters out there, who could maybe explain this attitude?
- barry-cotter 9y ago
  They’re probably German or Austrian. That’s an accurate description of how stopping with a Bachelor’s is read there. I think the same is true in Switzerland but I’m not sure. It’s probably relevant that prior to the EU’s Bologna Process the lowest university degree was basically equivalent to a Master’s. That’s true for everywhere in continental Europe but German speakers love their Doktortitels more than anywhere else.
- arnvald 9y ago
  Certain countries in Europe (e.g. Italy or Poland) have only adopted concept of bachelor degree in 2000s. Before that you had to study for 5 years and you got master degree. Certain majors still follow that rule (e.g. psychology or law). I started university in 2007 and among ~180 people studying CS with me, majority continued with full-time master studies immediately, and most of the others did it part-time (either immediately or after 1-2 years break). These days it's different, it becomes more common to either finish formal education with bachelor degree, take a long break or continue in another, related major. 10 years ago it wasn't the case.
besasam 9y ago
>if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. What? This is definitely not true in Germany, at least not anymore. Unless you want to go into research or teaching, it's commonplace for graduates to start working right away. I think a much bigger problem that contributes to the devaluation of university degrees is the fact that students that don't really need a degree still get pushed to attend university - and that's definitely because of current recruiting practices where you really have no chance without at least a Bachelor's. I've met so many people in university who only really wanted to code and got no use out of learning things like automata theory, complexity, higher mathematics. Not saying it isn't important to learn these things, but you gotta differentiate between coders and computer scientists. And if coder positions require a computer science degree, well... Of course you're going to end up devaluing those degrees. Edit: Adding to this, I attended university for 4 years before switching to a more practice-oriented college. In those 4 years I had one programming lecture (which only introduced three different language paradigms and didn't go into depth) and a system programming lab (admittedly, this was really cool). Everything else was mostly theoretical computer science and mathematics. Now, I chose this university because people told me of its good reputation and I felt like I had to attend a prestigeous school to get a good job, but it didn't really teach me any practical skills at all, so even if I had graduated I would've had a hard time landing that "good job" due to complete lack of experience.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option. After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2. Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)
  - jcbrand 9y ago
jrimbault 9y ago
In the same vein, I suppose in Europe we don't see education as only a mean to an end (a job), but we value education in and of itself. Also, education itself is much less a business here than in the US.
- V-2 9y ago
  The elephant in the room is that in quite a few European countries [edit] (such as Germany or Scandinavian countries) it's free or really cheap (ie. Italy) [/edit], hence the well-known phenomenon of the "eternal student". In countries where job market can be tough, such as Southern Europe or Poland - where I'm from, and where I've observed this first-hand (in Italy, too) - going to uni is a common way of deferring the unpleasant clash with economic reality. It provides an excellent "alibi" for a few years' worth extension of parents' financial support. "We value education in and of itself" attitude certainly comes in handy ;)
  - jaclaz 9y ago
    >The elephant in the room is that in quite a few European countries (such as Italy, Germany) it's free, hence the well-known phenomenon of the "eternal student". You are simplifying it a tad bit too much. In Italy Univesity course is not "free", it has a low cost (taxes and fees + books), but - unless you (with your parents) already live in the city where the university is, there are transfer/lodgement costs. There was an article just the other day on the Corriere della Sera about the situation, I assume you can read Italian, otherwise it is not that bad via Google translate: http://www.corriere.it/dataroom-milena-gabanelli/quanto-costa-mandare-figlio-all-universita/898a5864-2c64-11e8-aa71-9a5a346d5f9b-va.shtml?refresh_ce-cp http://www.corriere.it/dataroom-milena-gabanelli/quanto-cost... And - with the exception of very few specific and "technical" courses the issue is that once you have spent these 15.000-45.000 Euro you are not going to receive - if you find a job - an increased wage when compared to someone without a degree or with an undergraduate degree. Of course the main underlying reason is that there is a high unemployment rate, and "on the market" an "average" degree has not much increased value. Possibly something similar happens for CS, firms have "basic" CS degree as a requirement but do not value much an additional Master.
fergie 9y ago
James Bond's academic nous was famously demonstrated by his First in Oriental Languages from Cambridge. The most common qualification for a career in British government is an Oxbridge undergraduate degree in PPE. A top grade in an undergraduate course from a top university is, and has always been the most "useful" qualification for people with career ambition in the UK.
EnderMB 9y ago
I guess it depends on where in Europe you're from. This doesn't seem to be the case in the UK, where a lot of employers really couldn't care less if you're got a Masters of not. Hell, when I was studying for a masters, I felt that it was essentially a half-way course towards getting someone ready for a career in academia. Others also used it as a way to get a good university name on their CV so big companies would look at their applications.
jk563 9y ago
> This was never the case in Europe, where if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. This was never my impression during my university years, nor in working life (both technical and managerial).
adzicg 9y ago
This is not my experience in the UK (not sure if you consider UK part of Europe, though :). If anything, it was the opposite, people I worked with would consider anything better than Bachelors in CS on a candidate’s CV (eg MS or PhD) as a signal that they wasted too much time in their life before starting with real work in the industry. [edited for clarity]
- tanilama 9y ago
  I doubt that. Bachelor is not sufficient for a lot of areas in CS, like DB/Distributed System/Machine Leanring, etc.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Would you like to provide evidence of that
    - tanilama 9y ago
      Working in ML in a big firm. Data pointa are about 30. Most candidates pass the resume screen at least have Masters, majority have PhDs. Bachelors are rarely considered, unless EXTREMELY competitive, like good students from Harvard/MIT.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        Interesting that your firm only recruits experienced people or do they think that there has been to much grade inflation. Back in my first job (based on campus at CIT) they did prefer BSC's (with a first from the right uni, I think Harvard might just have made the list) for new recruits with the idea that they would do a masters /phd at the organisation.
  - cpburns2009 9y ago
    You can't seriously believe that a degree in CS, let alone a higher degree such as a PhD, is required for any of those things, do you? Unless you're working in theoretical areas of CS, or want to check off the PhD requirement for one of the big tech companies, then that sounds extremely pompous.
Philipp__ 9y ago
Definitely not true. Depends, if you went with 3 years of studies + 2 on Masters, maybe it is true. But 4 years (and in some cases more) of studies are the "norm".
tauntz 9y ago
> if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong I'll throw in my 2 cents - this is not true at all for Estonia for example. It might be in some fields of study that I'm not familiar with but definitely not in CS.
CalRobert 9y ago
Or that you understand opportunity cost and wanted to start making stuff instead of burning more life before doing anything useful? Anyway, I've never had my lack of a Master's come up in Europe. Maybe it's because I'm American.
akerro 9y ago
>people assume something went wrong. After I presented my BSc project my supervisor offered me support with PhD in computer vision and AI (area of my work and his specialisation). I had to refuse as during my studies tuition fees for PhD went up over 9x times (and for BSc almost 11x). On my first year I worked with people who paid ~£300 per academic year, on my final year I worked with others who paid almost £10.000 per year. "Something" went wrong.
stordoff 9y ago
As far as I am aware, Cambridge didn't even offer a Master's in Computer Science until relatively recently, only the BA (MPhil added in 2009–10, MEng added in 2011–12), so I find it difficult to believe that is the prevailing attitude (at least in the UK).
- gaius 9y ago
  Oxbridge master's degrees aren't "real" tho' - from time to time there are attempts in Parliament to crack down on them, but too many vested interests have them https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8318460/Oxbridge-students-MA-degrees-under-threat.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/83...
  - stordoff 9y ago
    You are referring to the MA (Cantab.) / MA (Oxon.) which are conferred to BA graduates six to seven years from matriculation, and indicates rank within the university. This is why I said Cambridge _didn't_ offer a Master's in Computer Science. The MPhil/MEng are absolutely real qualifications, requiring an additional year's study and a substantial research project.
    - gaius 9y ago
      They are never used like that - people always say “I have a Masters in whatever from Oxford”. It’s a deliberate misdirection.
      - stordoff 9y ago
        I studied at Cambridge, and I have _never_ heard "Master's in X" used to describe the MA (Cantab.). It's simply wrong - the MA is not a subject specific qualifications - and can be trivially checked by employers - neither degree certificate (the BA or MA) states subject[1], and the degree transcript will indict you only took undergraduate level courses. As a result, the phasing is typically "I have an undergraduate degree in X"/"I did my undergrad. at Cambridge". If people are using it to be misleading, that isn't really Cambridge's problem -- anywhere it matters, people can ask for proof (the transcript), and there is a fair chance the person is being misleading in other ways as well. [1] Example BA certificate: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VTWUb.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/VTWUb.png All undergraduate degrees are the Bachelor of Arts, regardless of subject (except Law, which is the LL.B.).
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Many European universities often have 3 year undergrads with a 1-2 years masters to make up for that. All USA universities have 4 year undergrad programs and many have 1 year master programs now. It is safe to say that the systems are a bit incomparable, since a 3 year degree in the states would be just as comparable to an associate’s degree.

sarreph 9y ago

I don’t understand how the highest voted comment (at this time) in this thread is a user spreading a false notion that ‘if you only have a bachelor [in Europe], people assume something went wrong’. Do they have sources to back this kind of snooty claim up? Anecdotally, the only time I’ve come across this attitidude is when individuals heavily-vested in academia are attempting to stake out the moral high ground.

maze-le 9y ago
Exactly, I know plenty of people who spent years in academia, just to get their CS Masters degree. In the end of the day it seems harder for them to get decent (entry-level) jobs, because recruiters claim they lack work experience. Its not impossible mind you but on the surface, it seems harder. I wonder if there are recruiters out there, who could maybe explain this attitude?
barry-cotter 9y ago
They’re probably German or Austrian. That’s an accurate description of how stopping with a Bachelor’s is read there. I think the same is true in Switzerland but I’m not sure. It’s probably relevant that prior to the EU’s Bologna Process the lowest university degree was basically equivalent to a Master’s. That’s true for everywhere in continental Europe but German speakers love their Doktortitels more than anywhere else.
arnvald 9y ago
Certain countries in Europe (e.g. Italy or Poland) have only adopted concept of bachelor degree in 2000s. Before that you had to study for 5 years and you got master degree. Certain majors still follow that rule (e.g. psychology or law). I started university in 2007 and among ~180 people studying CS with me, majority continued with full-time master studies immediately, and most of the others did it part-time (either immediately or after 1-2 years break). These days it's different, it becomes more common to either finish formal education with bachelor degree, take a long break or continue in another, related major. 10 years ago it wasn't the case.

besasam 9y ago

>if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. What? This is definitely not true in Germany, at least not anymore. Unless you want to go into research or teaching, it's commonplace for graduates to start working right away. I think a much bigger problem that contributes to the devaluation of university degrees is the fact that students that don't really need a degree still get pushed to attend university - and that's definitely because of current recruiting practices where you really have no chance without at least a Bachelor's. I've met so many people in university who only really wanted to code and got no use out of learning things like automata theory, complexity, higher mathematics. Not saying it isn't important to learn these things, but you gotta differentiate between coders and computer scientists. And if coder positions require a computer science degree, well... Of course you're going to end up devaluing those degrees. Edit: Adding to this, I attended university for 4 years before switching to a more practice-oriented college. In those 4 years I had one programming lecture (which only introduced three different language paradigms and didn't go into depth) and a system programming lab (admittedly, this was really cool). Everything else was mostly theoretical computer science and mathematics. Now, I chose this university because people told me of its good reputation and I felt like I had to attend a prestigeous school to get a good job, but it didn't really teach me any practical skills at all, so even if I had graduated I would've had a hard time landing that "good job" due to complete lack of experience.

pjmlp 9y ago
Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option. After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2. Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)
- jcbrand 9y ago

jrimbault 9y ago

In the same vein, I suppose in Europe we don't see education as only a mean to an end (a job), but we value education in and of itself. Also, education itself is much less a business here than in the US.

V-2 9y ago
The elephant in the room is that in quite a few European countries [edit] (such as Germany or Scandinavian countries) it's free or really cheap (ie. Italy) [/edit], hence the well-known phenomenon of the "eternal student". In countries where job market can be tough, such as Southern Europe or Poland - where I'm from, and where I've observed this first-hand (in Italy, too) - going to uni is a common way of deferring the unpleasant clash with economic reality. It provides an excellent "alibi" for a few years' worth extension of parents' financial support. "We value education in and of itself" attitude certainly comes in handy ;)
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >The elephant in the room is that in quite a few European countries (such as Italy, Germany) it's free, hence the well-known phenomenon of the "eternal student". You are simplifying it a tad bit too much. In Italy Univesity course is not "free", it has a low cost (taxes and fees + books), but - unless you (with your parents) already live in the city where the university is, there are transfer/lodgement costs. There was an article just the other day on the Corriere della Sera about the situation, I assume you can read Italian, otherwise it is not that bad via Google translate: http://www.corriere.it/dataroom-milena-gabanelli/quanto-costa-mandare-figlio-all-universita/898a5864-2c64-11e8-aa71-9a5a346d5f9b-va.shtml?refresh_ce-cp http://www.corriere.it/dataroom-milena-gabanelli/quanto-cost... And - with the exception of very few specific and "technical" courses the issue is that once you have spent these 15.000-45.000 Euro you are not going to receive - if you find a job - an increased wage when compared to someone without a degree or with an undergraduate degree. Of course the main underlying reason is that there is a high unemployment rate, and "on the market" an "average" degree has not much increased value. Possibly something similar happens for CS, firms have "basic" CS degree as a requirement but do not value much an additional Master.

fergie 9y ago

James Bond's academic nous was famously demonstrated by his First in Oriental Languages from Cambridge. The most common qualification for a career in British government is an Oxbridge undergraduate degree in PPE. A top grade in an undergraduate course from a top university is, and has always been the most "useful" qualification for people with career ambition in the UK.

EnderMB 9y ago

I guess it depends on where in Europe you're from. This doesn't seem to be the case in the UK, where a lot of employers really couldn't care less if you're got a Masters of not. Hell, when I was studying for a masters, I felt that it was essentially a half-way course towards getting someone ready for a career in academia. Others also used it as a way to get a good university name on their CV so big companies would look at their applications.

jk563 9y ago

> This was never the case in Europe, where if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. This was never my impression during my university years, nor in working life (both technical and managerial).

adzicg 9y ago

This is not my experience in the UK (not sure if you consider UK part of Europe, though :). If anything, it was the opposite, people I worked with would consider anything better than Bachelors in CS on a candidate’s CV (eg MS or PhD) as a signal that they wasted too much time in their life before starting with real work in the industry. [edited for clarity]

tanilama 9y ago
I doubt that. Bachelor is not sufficient for a lot of areas in CS, like DB/Distributed System/Machine Leanring, etc.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Would you like to provide evidence of that
  - tanilama 9y ago
    Working in ML in a big firm. Data pointa are about 30. Most candidates pass the resume screen at least have Masters, majority have PhDs. Bachelors are rarely considered, unless EXTREMELY competitive, like good students from Harvard/MIT.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      Interesting that your firm only recruits experienced people or do they think that there has been to much grade inflation. Back in my first job (based on campus at CIT) they did prefer BSC's (with a first from the right uni, I think Harvard might just have made the list) for new recruits with the idea that they would do a masters /phd at the organisation.
- cpburns2009 9y ago
  You can't seriously believe that a degree in CS, let alone a higher degree such as a PhD, is required for any of those things, do you? Unless you're working in theoretical areas of CS, or want to check off the PhD requirement for one of the big tech companies, then that sounds extremely pompous.

Philipp__ 9y ago

Definitely not true. Depends, if you went with 3 years of studies + 2 on Masters, maybe it is true. But 4 years (and in some cases more) of studies are the "norm".

tauntz 9y ago

> if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong I'll throw in my 2 cents - this is not true at all for Estonia for example. It might be in some fields of study that I'm not familiar with but definitely not in CS.

CalRobert 9y ago

Or that you understand opportunity cost and wanted to start making stuff instead of burning more life before doing anything useful? Anyway, I've never had my lack of a Master's come up in Europe. Maybe it's because I'm American.

akerro 9y ago

>people assume something went wrong. After I presented my BSc project my supervisor offered me support with PhD in computer vision and AI (area of my work and his specialisation). I had to refuse as during my studies tuition fees for PhD went up over 9x times (and for BSc almost 11x). On my first year I worked with people who paid ~£300 per academic year, on my final year I worked with others who paid almost £10.000 per year. "Something" went wrong.

stordoff 9y ago

As far as I am aware, Cambridge didn't even offer a Master's in Computer Science until relatively recently, only the BA (MPhil added in 2009–10, MEng added in 2011–12), so I find it difficult to believe that is the prevailing attitude (at least in the UK).

gaius 9y ago
Oxbridge master's degrees aren't "real" tho' - from time to time there are attempts in Parliament to crack down on them, but too many vested interests have them https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8318460/Oxbridge-students-MA-degrees-under-threat.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/83...
- stordoff 9y ago
  You are referring to the MA (Cantab.) / MA (Oxon.) which are conferred to BA graduates six to seven years from matriculation, and indicates rank within the university. This is why I said Cambridge _didn't_ offer a Master's in Computer Science. The MPhil/MEng are absolutely real qualifications, requiring an additional year's study and a substantial research project.
  - gaius 9y ago
    They are never used like that - people always say “I have a Masters in whatever from Oxford”. It’s a deliberate misdirection.
    - stordoff 9y ago
      I studied at Cambridge, and I have _never_ heard "Master's in X" used to describe the MA (Cantab.). It's simply wrong - the MA is not a subject specific qualifications - and can be trivially checked by employers - neither degree certificate (the BA or MA) states subject[1], and the degree transcript will indict you only took undergraduate level courses. As a result, the phasing is typically "I have an undergraduate degree in X"/"I did my undergrad. at Cambridge". If people are using it to be misleading, that isn't really Cambridge's problem -- anywhere it matters, people can ask for proof (the transcript), and there is a fair chance the person is being misleading in other ways as well. [1] Example BA certificate: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VTWUb.png https://i.stack.imgur.com/VTWUb.png All undergraduate degrees are the Bachelor of Arts, regardless of subject (except Law, which is the LL.B.).

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Many European universities often have 3 year undergrads with a 1-2 years masters to make up for that. All USA universities have 4 year undergrad programs and many have 1 year master programs now. It is safe to say that the systems are a bit incomparable, since a 3 year degree in the states would be just as comparable to an associate’s degree.