8 ms·

South Korean government to shut off computers to stop its employees working late

194 points by Mononokay 9y ago

lokopodium 9y ago
What about those who work late away from computers?
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Can't solve the entire workaholic problem at once, baby steps. Next steps would be to nuke service access after business hours (email, remote desktop, etc). Both Germany [1] and France [2] passed laws restricting the use of business email after work hours to ensure proper work/life balance. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/01/366806938/german-government-may-say-nein-to-work-emails-after-six https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/01/366806938/... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/world/europe/france-work-email.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/world/europe/france-work-...
  - petre 9y ago
    The South Korean method seems more efficient. Also they chose 20:00 which is way beyond work hours and still allows overtime.
  - conductr 9y ago
    I really like flexibility. To me that’s the balance. If they set your work hours how do you have balance? For example, dr appointment or meeting kids teacher in the middle of business day. The balance is being able to jump online that evening when you get home, IMO. So I’m always curious about how these mandated work hour things are implemented and enforced. Because if they just shut off the systems at 5pm, then you’re just missing work. That’s not balance.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Or just start fresh in the morning. There are reasons these regulations are being enacted. Reducing abusive workplace environments takes priority over flexibility and convenience.
chrsstrm 9y ago
This sounds like a good start but it should really be implemented at the human level by having managers convince their people to go home (with their work in whatever state it is in). Without the blessing of your superiors this situation could backfire and managers might apply more pressure to finish before the Friday shutdown.
- rangibaby 9y ago
  What will happen is people will be sitting at their desks playing on their phones or sleeping. Until the governments of Japan and ROK decide to enforce their existing labor laws none of these "clever" solutions (like "premium Friday" in Japan) will change much.
hprotagonist 9y ago
More precisely, this appears to be for governmental employees only.
phyller 9y ago
This is Bizarro world for me. Until I read this article I couldn't conceive that government workers working too hard would be an issue. Not that we don't have government workers who have to work really hard in the USA. But that seems to be the exception and not the rule. I am more used to watching the reflection of a game of Solitaire off of workers glasses while dozens of people wait in line. I get that it's apparently a problem there, but what are they doing right where more than half the government workforce are asking to be allowed to work late? Or are they just milking overtime pay? The latter would definitely fit much more comfortably into my experience. Edit: "My experience" being running a small business for 7 years that required interacting with various local government employees from many different municipalities. The vast majority were very nice people, but my company (and my competitors) were run way more efficiently, and always using the latest technologies. I think it comes down to motivation and human nature. Sometimes they would casually do things that completely screwed over everyone that relied on them, in the worst places such things would be done on purpose for political reasons. The office just got asked to reduce expenses by 5%? Cut the hours for customer facing tasks by 50% so the public feels the pain and complains to the mayor.
- smt88 9y ago
  Govt workers that you meet in person (DMV, permitting office, etc.) are a tiny drop in the bucket and don't accurately represent the whole.
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    The American government workers I meet tend be software developers, or developers who've moved into management. They work at least as hard as private sector workers, usually for less pay, and they really believe in their work (science/biology). The American meme of the dysfunctional DMV seems almost self-reinforcing. The equivalent offices I use in Denmark or the UK are efficient, they have targets to meet and a good working culture.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
systematical 9y ago
Having just shutdown my laptop at 9:30 PM MST (on my chromebook now) I just realized I work like a South Korean. No one asked me to work like this today. I was literally thinking how I am creating my own work prison and then I saw this article. At least I'm not alone? Ugh.
- movedx 9y ago
  Please consider working only your alloted hours, as per your contract. It's very unheathly to work beyond 8 hours per day, maybe even 5-6 hours -- consider your health.
  - systematical 9y ago
    Agreed, some days I only do 4-6 so when I do days like this I feel like it balances out. Maybe I should start doing my own time sheets though. Working from home its really hard to tell. As for contract I am salary like most engineers.
    - smt88 9y ago
      Check out RescueTime
      - darklajid 9y ago
        I assume you're familiar with that product? Am I reading this correctly: You're running an agent on your various devices that sends data to their cloud? Application names at minimum, I assume. Website addresses as far as I can tell. If they harvest window titles: Probably file names you open. Are you comfortable with that?
        smt88 9y ago
        I don't use it, but it doesn't seem significantly riskier than using cloud-based email or any other proprietary desktop software.
      - 9y ago
fiblye 9y ago
>However, not every government worker seems to be on-board - according to the SMG, 67.1% of government workers have asked to be exempt from the forced lights-out. They asked to be exempt entirely on their own volition, or their managers "politely" asked them to consider sending in an exemption request? And this isn't a question in earnest because I already know the answer.
- mikekchar 9y ago
  I'm someone who works a lot of overtime, and yet no manager has ever asked me to work overtime. The reason for putting these rules in place is because for some people (myself included) working overtime is something that they do habitually -- even when they shouldn't. Now that's not to say that my managers are not complicit in that. Working as a programmer, I find there is not much time pressure during the day (unless you break your server), but you have this long term stress where you are thinking, "I need to get X,Y, and Z done by <some date>". Often those deadlines are even self imposed. In fact, it is a normal underhanded trick to get programmers to estimate and commit to dates knowing that they are overwhelmingly optimistic. But the fact remains that in general we walk willingly into those long hours. I've also worked at a high school in Japan and while the stress is different, the results are the same. I used to hate national holidays because I knew that my workload wouldn't change. It just meant that I had one day less to get my work done, which is basically a whole lot more stress during the week in exchange for some random, government imposed "day off". I take my "day off" and my students get a crap class later that week (or if I'm really organised, two weeks later). I feel bad because I want every single one of my classes to rock. But to get to the point, if someone said that I had to turn off my computer at some government imposed time of the day, you're damn right I'd want an exception -- because otherwise there will be weeks where I won't get my work done. I will feel bad because I want to get my work done and I hate the idea of screwing over the customer because, "Well, not my fault! I have to go home". Of course, you are perfectly correct to say that there is something very broken in that equation. You are wrong to assume that it's the evil manager to is squashing everybody under their thumb. I've had some right asses as managers before, but the vast majority have been wonderful, caring, people who have exactly the same illness I do. That's why you mandate going home time, despite how much someone complains.
maruhan2 9y ago
There are various reasons that people may ask to be exempt. Two that most comes to mind are: 1. Explicit or roundabout pressure from the managers 2. Being expected to produce the same outcome despite reduced work time Both of which seems like a inertia issue with the culture not following the change. That would probably stabilize over time if a actual rule sets in place.
afterburner 9y ago
Are these people working overtime all working or putting in face time?
- zenir 9y ago
  From my experience living in Korea and the fact that Korea has one of the lowest productivity of all oecd countries, it is half-half. A lot of the time is actually not "hard-working" but rather drizzling some work. This is partly because you know it is expected that you stay long hours (and so you stay long hours without being explicitly asked) so you might as well just do your work slowly. Also it is partly that nobody can work concentrated for such long hours. And a lot of time is wasted by people not asking when they are stuck with any kind of problem / task (losing ones face / looking incompetent problem).
brenschluss 9y ago
A crucial aspect of this story is that government employees are a coveted job in Korea, with a good benefits and salary and a healthy pension. There are separate tests that people have to take in order to apply for gov jobs, and the competition rate is usually very high for all of them, clerical, skill-based, or not - from 40:1 to more often 200:1 of an apply/acceptance ratio. This generally means that the level of skill and aptitude you encounter is very high; the amount of social morale is high also, since a government job is a respected, very healthy middle-class job.
Lanz 9y ago
Government workers working hard?! Must be a nice problem to have.

194 points by Mononokay 9y ago

lokopodium 9y ago

What about those who work late away from computers?

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Can't solve the entire workaholic problem at once, baby steps. Next steps would be to nuke service access after business hours (email, remote desktop, etc). Both Germany [1] and France [2] passed laws restricting the use of business email after work hours to ensure proper work/life balance. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/01/366806938/german-government-may-say-nein-to-work-emails-after-six https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/12/01/366806938/... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/world/europe/france-work-email.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/world/europe/france-work-...
- petre 9y ago
  The South Korean method seems more efficient. Also they chose 20:00 which is way beyond work hours and still allows overtime.
- conductr 9y ago
  I really like flexibility. To me that’s the balance. If they set your work hours how do you have balance? For example, dr appointment or meeting kids teacher in the middle of business day. The balance is being able to jump online that evening when you get home, IMO. So I’m always curious about how these mandated work hour things are implemented and enforced. Because if they just shut off the systems at 5pm, then you’re just missing work. That’s not balance.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Or just start fresh in the morning. There are reasons these regulations are being enacted. Reducing abusive workplace environments takes priority over flexibility and convenience.

chrsstrm 9y ago

This sounds like a good start but it should really be implemented at the human level by having managers convince their people to go home (with their work in whatever state it is in). Without the blessing of your superiors this situation could backfire and managers might apply more pressure to finish before the Friday shutdown.

rangibaby 9y ago
What will happen is people will be sitting at their desks playing on their phones or sleeping. Until the governments of Japan and ROK decide to enforce their existing labor laws none of these "clever" solutions (like "premium Friday" in Japan) will change much.

hprotagonist 9y ago

More precisely, this appears to be for governmental employees only.

phyller 9y ago

This is Bizarro world for me. Until I read this article I couldn't conceive that government workers working too hard would be an issue. Not that we don't have government workers who have to work really hard in the USA. But that seems to be the exception and not the rule. I am more used to watching the reflection of a game of Solitaire off of workers glasses while dozens of people wait in line. I get that it's apparently a problem there, but what are they doing right where more than half the government workforce are asking to be allowed to work late? Or are they just milking overtime pay? The latter would definitely fit much more comfortably into my experience. Edit: "My experience" being running a small business for 7 years that required interacting with various local government employees from many different municipalities. The vast majority were very nice people, but my company (and my competitors) were run way more efficiently, and always using the latest technologies. I think it comes down to motivation and human nature. Sometimes they would casually do things that completely screwed over everyone that relied on them, in the worst places such things would be done on purpose for political reasons. The office just got asked to reduce expenses by 5%? Cut the hours for customer facing tasks by 50% so the public feels the pain and complains to the mayor.

smt88 9y ago
Govt workers that you meet in person (DMV, permitting office, etc.) are a tiny drop in the bucket and don't accurately represent the whole.
- Symbiote 9y ago
  The American government workers I meet tend be software developers, or developers who've moved into management. They work at least as hard as private sector workers, usually for less pay, and they really believe in their work (science/biology). The American meme of the dysfunctional DMV seems almost self-reinforcing. The equivalent offices I use in Denmark or the UK are efficient, they have targets to meet and a good working culture.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

systematical 9y ago

Having just shutdown my laptop at 9:30 PM MST (on my chromebook now) I just realized I work like a South Korean. No one asked me to work like this today. I was literally thinking how I am creating my own work prison and then I saw this article. At least I'm not alone? Ugh.

movedx 9y ago
Please consider working only your alloted hours, as per your contract. It's very unheathly to work beyond 8 hours per day, maybe even 5-6 hours -- consider your health.
- systematical 9y ago
  Agreed, some days I only do 4-6 so when I do days like this I feel like it balances out. Maybe I should start doing my own time sheets though. Working from home its really hard to tell. As for contract I am salary like most engineers.
  - smt88 9y ago
    Check out RescueTime
    - darklajid 9y ago
      I assume you're familiar with that product? Am I reading this correctly: You're running an agent on your various devices that sends data to their cloud? Application names at minimum, I assume. Website addresses as far as I can tell. If they harvest window titles: Probably file names you open. Are you comfortable with that?
      - smt88 9y ago
        I don't use it, but it doesn't seem significantly riskier than using cloud-based email or any other proprietary desktop software.
    - 9y ago

fiblye 9y ago

>However, not every government worker seems to be on-board - according to the SMG, 67.1% of government workers have asked to be exempt from the forced lights-out. They asked to be exempt entirely on their own volition, or their managers "politely" asked them to consider sending in an exemption request? And this isn't a question in earnest because I already know the answer.

mikekchar 9y ago
I'm someone who works a lot of overtime, and yet no manager has ever asked me to work overtime. The reason for putting these rules in place is because for some people (myself included) working overtime is something that they do habitually -- even when they shouldn't. Now that's not to say that my managers are not complicit in that. Working as a programmer, I find there is not much time pressure during the day (unless you break your server), but you have this long term stress where you are thinking, "I need to get X,Y, and Z done by <some date>". Often those deadlines are even self imposed. In fact, it is a normal underhanded trick to get programmers to estimate and commit to dates knowing that they are overwhelmingly optimistic. But the fact remains that in general we walk willingly into those long hours. I've also worked at a high school in Japan and while the stress is different, the results are the same. I used to hate national holidays because I knew that my workload wouldn't change. It just meant that I had one day less to get my work done, which is basically a whole lot more stress during the week in exchange for some random, government imposed "day off". I take my "day off" and my students get a crap class later that week (or if I'm really organised, two weeks later). I feel bad because I want every single one of my classes to rock. But to get to the point, if someone said that I had to turn off my computer at some government imposed time of the day, you're damn right I'd want an exception -- because otherwise there will be weeks where I won't get my work done. I will feel bad because I want to get my work done and I hate the idea of screwing over the customer because, "Well, not my fault! I have to go home". Of course, you are perfectly correct to say that there is something very broken in that equation. You are wrong to assume that it's the evil manager to is squashing everybody under their thumb. I've had some right asses as managers before, but the vast majority have been wonderful, caring, people who have exactly the same illness I do. That's why you mandate going home time, despite how much someone complains.

maruhan2 9y ago

There are various reasons that people may ask to be exempt. Two that most comes to mind are: 1. Explicit or roundabout pressure from the managers 2. Being expected to produce the same outcome despite reduced work time Both of which seems like a inertia issue with the culture not following the change. That would probably stabilize over time if a actual rule sets in place.

afterburner 9y ago

Are these people working overtime all working or putting in face time?

zenir 9y ago
From my experience living in Korea and the fact that Korea has one of the lowest productivity of all oecd countries, it is half-half. A lot of the time is actually not "hard-working" but rather drizzling some work. This is partly because you know it is expected that you stay long hours (and so you stay long hours without being explicitly asked) so you might as well just do your work slowly. Also it is partly that nobody can work concentrated for such long hours. And a lot of time is wasted by people not asking when they are stuck with any kind of problem / task (losing ones face / looking incompetent problem).

brenschluss 9y ago

A crucial aspect of this story is that government employees are a coveted job in Korea, with a good benefits and salary and a healthy pension. There are separate tests that people have to take in order to apply for gov jobs, and the competition rate is usually very high for all of them, clerical, skill-based, or not - from 40:1 to more often 200:1 of an apply/acceptance ratio. This generally means that the level of skill and aptitude you encounter is very high; the amount of social morale is high also, since a government job is a respected, very healthy middle-class job.

Lanz 9y ago

Government workers working hard?! Must be a nice problem to have.