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> We interfere all the time in foreign elections, and so many countries tried to influence ours I don’t see anything innately wrong with it. There's a big diff

> We interfere all the time in foreign elections, and so many countries tried to influence ours I don’t see anything innately wrong with it. There's a big difference between 'influencing' an election and committing a concerted campaign of espionage, propaganda, disinformation, hacking, and potentially extortion in an effort to subvert the the government of another nation. The scope and aggressiveness of Russia's actions are quite a different animal than normal statecraft. The fact that several members of the Trump campaign have been indicted and made plea deals indicates that there is a lot of criminal activity there to unpack. Most definitely not business as usual.

lokopodium 9y ago
Everyone with ability and motivation has done this on every occasion. Going after individuals when it's obvious it's a state actor is what puzzles me.
adventured 9y ago
> The fact that several members of the Trump campaign have been indicted and made plea deals indicates that there is a lot of criminal activity there to unpack. Most definitely not business as usual. It was most definitely business as usual. DC is dirty at every corner and most administrations are overflowing with it, including the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations. Obama's was cleaner than both of those, based on what we know so far. You also need to look at what those Trump campaign members were indicted for: absolutely nothing to do with colluding with Russia to rig the election. They got them on rather routine political corruption charges, which you can probably get half of DC for given the way it operates, if you look. It's the Xi premise of cleaning up China's corruption: they're all doing it, you can get any of them if you want to investigate closely enough.
- dbt00 9y ago
  > They got them on rather routine political corruption charges, which you can probably get half of DC for This is false. How many members of Clinton and Bush's campaign staff or senior national security staff were ever accused of collusion with or corruption involving hostile/iffy foreign governments? Because there's nothing comparable to NSA Flynn plotting to execute an extraordinary rendition on US soil on behalf of a foreign power (Turkey), or campaign manager Manafort indicted for financial crimes involving hiding money received from a foreign government under active sanctions, or deputy campaign manager pleading guilty to similar charges. > absolutely nothing to do with colluding with Russia to rig the election Reminder: Paul Manafort was indicated for being a paid agent of and conspiring with the Russian government and 13 Russian nationals have been indicted for interfering with the 2016 elections. The closest you get to this is Iran-Contra in 1987 and the rumored 1980 "October Surprise", where George HW Bush -- allegedly -- negotiated with Iran to delay releasing American hostages until after Reagan defeated Carter. (They were released on Inauguration day 1981.) However, I would argue that nothing in modern US history comes close to this. No American president has been credibly accused or even remotely tied to foreign government attempts to manipulate the US electorate the way the Trump campaign and White House have been.
randiantech 9y ago
US actively helped to establish military dictatorships on Latinamerica. So yes, business as usual.
- GVIrish 9y ago
  Sure, the United States has a lot of blood on it's hands in Latin America. Doesn't change the fact that it is very much not business as usual for Russia to attempt to subvert the US Govt like this. They've crossed several lines in the sand, which is why expulsions, Interpol warrants, and sanctions have been levied against Russia and individuals involved. One can make the argument that this is just Cold War stuff again, but the tactics being employed are in several ways a step above the old Cold War in aggressiveness.
  - superjambo 9y ago
    and Iran.. Maybe Egypt? Turkey of course claims there too (though I don't believe it). To me this and the trade war with China suggest that the US is losing it's status as pre-eminent super power. The crown is slipping and the vultures circle. Worrying times really.

lokopodium 9y ago

Everyone with ability and motivation has done this on every occasion. Going after individuals when it's obvious it's a state actor is what puzzles me.

adventured 9y ago

> The fact that several members of the Trump campaign have been indicted and made plea deals indicates that there is a lot of criminal activity there to unpack. Most definitely not business as usual. It was most definitely business as usual. DC is dirty at every corner and most administrations are overflowing with it, including the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations. Obama's was cleaner than both of those, based on what we know so far. You also need to look at what those Trump campaign members were indicted for: absolutely nothing to do with colluding with Russia to rig the election. They got them on rather routine political corruption charges, which you can probably get half of DC for given the way it operates, if you look. It's the Xi premise of cleaning up China's corruption: they're all doing it, you can get any of them if you want to investigate closely enough.

dbt00 9y ago
> They got them on rather routine political corruption charges, which you can probably get half of DC for This is false. How many members of Clinton and Bush's campaign staff or senior national security staff were ever accused of collusion with or corruption involving hostile/iffy foreign governments? Because there's nothing comparable to NSA Flynn plotting to execute an extraordinary rendition on US soil on behalf of a foreign power (Turkey), or campaign manager Manafort indicted for financial crimes involving hiding money received from a foreign government under active sanctions, or deputy campaign manager pleading guilty to similar charges. > absolutely nothing to do with colluding with Russia to rig the election Reminder: Paul Manafort was indicated for being a paid agent of and conspiring with the Russian government and 13 Russian nationals have been indicted for interfering with the 2016 elections. The closest you get to this is Iran-Contra in 1987 and the rumored 1980 "October Surprise", where George HW Bush -- allegedly -- negotiated with Iran to delay releasing American hostages until after Reagan defeated Carter. (They were released on Inauguration day 1981.) However, I would argue that nothing in modern US history comes close to this. No American president has been credibly accused or even remotely tied to foreign government attempts to manipulate the US electorate the way the Trump campaign and White House have been.

randiantech 9y ago

US actively helped to establish military dictatorships on Latinamerica. So yes, business as usual.

GVIrish 9y ago
Sure, the United States has a lot of blood on it's hands in Latin America. Doesn't change the fact that it is very much not business as usual for Russia to attempt to subvert the US Govt like this. They've crossed several lines in the sand, which is why expulsions, Interpol warrants, and sanctions have been levied against Russia and individuals involved. One can make the argument that this is just Cold War stuff again, but the tactics being employed are in several ways a step above the old Cold War in aggressiveness.
- superjambo 9y ago
  and Iran.. Maybe Egypt? Turkey of course claims there too (though I don't believe it). To me this and the trade war with China suggest that the US is losing it's status as pre-eminent super power. The crown is slipping and the vultures circle. Worrying times really.