15 ms·

Telegram: 200M Monthly Active Users

198 points by foxfired 9y ago

nikivi 9y ago
Despite Telegram's shortcomings in not using well supported crypto and not having default end to end encryption on all conversations. Their clients for both iOS and mac are amazing in that they are native. And unlike WhatsApp you don't need to carry your phone with you all the time just to send a message to someone on desktop. Their bot API is also really rich. I am thinking of rewriting some of the Alfred workflows I wrote in Go as Telegram bots. For example I always wanted my Web Searches workflow (https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches) be present on my phone in some way. It seems I can actually do just that and reuse the Go code I wrote already.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  Here you go https://www.whatsapp.com/download/ https://www.whatsapp.com/download/ Also, Telegram has private keys stored on their server, and recently the Russian government demanded they hand over the key otherwise they will be banned from Russia. This can only happen because the key is on their server. I think that's a big deal.
  - nikivi 9y ago
    WhatsApp mac app is Electron wrapper over web chat. And it still requires your phone to be present and on battery to chat.
    - unicornporn 9y ago
      > And it still requires your phone to be present and on battery to chat. That's a cheap price to pay for E2EE only.
      - Tecuane 9y ago
        Wire[1], another E2EE chat application (using libsignal, just like WhatsApp and Signal itself), does not require this. It also has open-sourced its client and server applications[2], and is in the process of documenting how to run them yourself. It also has a pretty solid API[3]. One downside for JS haters, though, is that while the application isn't a wrapper for the site it is still Electron. 1. https://wire.com/en/security/ https://wire.com/en/security/ 2. https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server 3. https://developer.wire.com https://developer.wire.com
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        unicornporn 9y ago
        I'd recommend https://about.riot.im/ https://about.riot.im/ Solid crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated. [1] https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html
        Tecuane 9y ago
        In Matrix, E2EE isn't enabled by default[1], and the option to enable it is in fact marked with a warning that it comes with potentially unwanted side-effects. This isn't the same, and the arguments that call recommending Telegram for E2EE encryption disingenuous apply to Matrix/Riot recommendations too. One other issue I have with Matrix is the fact that they're in the process of completely rewriting their reference implementation in Go despite the fact that - as far as I remember - the first one, in Python, isn't entirely complete[2]. Combined with the app-bridge song and dance[3] there's too much in flux for me to recommend in good conscience. Finally, and perhaps most importantly (speaking as a "regular" user - the type needed to achieve mass adoption), the client is horrendous. This is especially apparent when compared with Wire, but I'd go as far as saying it's apparent even when compared with some IRC clients. At least Signal's UI/UX is passable. Encryption didn't catapult Telegram to 200 million monthly users. A slick UI, a half-decent UX, and some good marketing did. 1. Your link - https://about.riot.im/security/ https://about.riot.im/security/ 2. https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#introduction https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#introduction 3. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge
  - jakebasile 9y ago
    WhatsApp desktop is an Electron app that is leagues behind the Telegram clients. It also requires your phone to be on and connected to the network. It's not comparable at all. As far as I know, secret Telegram chats don't have a private key stored anywhere but your phone.
  - crowbahr 9y ago
    And WhatsApp is Facebook. It's kinda a bad deal all 'round.
  - Aoyagi 9y ago
    "This can only happen because the key is on their server." No, they can ask them for the keys even if they don't have them on their servers. And one would think that a likely response would be "We can't do that, we don't store the keys on our servers". Which is exactly what happened https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/21/telegram_ordered_hand_over_keys/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/21/telegram_ordered_ha...
  - codedokode 9y ago
    It doesn't mean anything. Once you have allowed Durov to read your contact list and to store your messages on his server, you cannot control what we will do with them. Even without any laws Durov can voluntarily share this data with any government or corporation and you won't be able to prevent this.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- danielbarla 9y ago
  I'm also a big fan of the bot API. I think it's very elegant in its approach to solving the problem of spam (bots can't really initiate chats, they can only respond to messages, or post to chats / groups where they were directly invited by a human). The performance and convenience of their desktop app is also very good. As a "I'll use it if I have to" WhatsApp user, I find having to re-authenticate the web app basically every time I launch it, and it constantly complaining about me switching off WhatsApp on my phone is almost a dealbreaker.
- nmca 9y ago
  I also wrote a wrapper for their bot API to send myself notifications from a server, 10/10 painless, easy, reliable so far. Would recommend.
- pqs 9y ago
  I agree, without taking security into consideration, Telegram's user experience is great. The clients are very nice, as the data is stored on the server, you can access it from any device (great on desktops and tablets, I hate not being able to send whatsapp messages from my iPad) and it doesn't fill your phone with the stupid videos people send to groups (many of my family members ask me why their phones are full and WhatsApp is always the culprit). Furthermore, Telegram Channels are great. It is all the advantages of Twitter, without the noise. Some Spanish journalists that I like are starting to create Telegram Channels and it is a great experience to just receive their messages, without the RTs, and angry answers of other users. Furthermore, I have a Channel myself which I use to publish opinions. It has only 10 followers, which are friends of mine which I know will appreciate. I really like the experience. Also, Telegram has great integration with IFTTT, which I use a lot!
- collyw 9y ago
  Yes I wish people would start using it. I am more or less locked into Whatsapp because many of my friends won't change. Its annoying siting at the computer, a Whatsapp message comes in and you need to switch to the shitty tocuhscreen keyboard then back again. I can reply to a telegram message from the computer and use a proper keyboard. The context switch seems far less interrupting to me as a result.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
    This. I absolutely hate that. By the way, there is Whatsapp Web where you can type with your keyboard. But it's clunky (somewhat less clunky with the Opera integration, if you use Opera), fickle and still requires you to have your phone on and with enough battery in the same wifi as the computer, which isn't always trivial.
    - Liquid_Fire 9y ago
      Just a small correction: it doesn't need to be on the same network as the computer.
      - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
        Thanks, I thought it did.
  - spery 9y ago
    I was in the same boat, but I decided to just make a jump. I've managed to persuade few closest friends to just try it out (half of them also ditched whatsapp altogether. With rest I just communicate via SMS. While I do lack groups, I've found out I'm not missing out much.
- codedokode 9y ago
  Of course they have good apps because they hire best developers to make you give them away all of your contacts and messages.
- wslh 9y ago
  Very concerned about the security but I want to add that Telegram voice calls work excellent while with WhatsApp I have constant hiccups.
lasgsf 9y ago
Love telegram. Simple easy to use.
gpm 9y ago
For some reason they felt the need to spam my phone and computer with a notification about this.
- quxbar 9y ago
  This was my only and immediate reaction. It was a serious faux pas.
  - bonellia 9y ago
    Maybe they just got excited to share it, I dunno.
    - hobofan 9y ago
      Maybe it's signalling in preparation for their ICO.
- fwdpropaganda 9y ago
  What do you mean, "spam"? I got this (and I was happy to) because I'm subscribed to their official channels. If you don't want to receive it, maybe you should unsubscribe to their channels. Or do you mean something else?
  - gpm 9y ago
    I mean that when I signed up for Telegram I never checked any boxes agreeing to recieve marketeing materials. Since signing up for Telegram I have not joined any channels or done anything that could be interpreted as consent to recieving marketing materials. And regardless the sent me spam about this (via the same channel that they sent me a code I needed to login to a second device).
  - ReverseCold 9y ago
    It came from the service notifications channel, aka the same one that you get login tokens from. It's one message though, I personally don't mind.
andrewfelix 9y ago
Why is Telegram getting so much better traction over open source alternatives such as Wire?
- gpm 9y ago
  Because it works better. I tried Wire first, I really wanted to like it. It lost messages. It got it's crypto state horribly confused and couldn't read messages from one of my contacts. It maxes out at some annoyingly low number of "devices" - which includes things like different browsers, different OSes, private browsing windows opened on someone elses computer, etc. And it generally felt like a poorly built UI.
  - huhtenberg 9y ago
    I too tried Wire and was really hoping it'd be good. It was just OK instead. I haven't seen lost messages, but I've seen them taking several minutes to go through with both clients online and on the same LAN. The UI was not quite there yet too. Routine basic operations required extra taps, it felt less snappy and responsive than you'd expect it to be. So, yeah, it can be used in a pinch, but it's not yet ready as a drop-in replacement for Telegram.
  - kitsunesoba 9y ago
    It really can’t be understated how important good UI+UX are when it comes to driving adoption of an IM app. Security/privacy is great but most people aren’t willing to use an app that’s heavy or has rough edges or is frustrating in any way. Think of it this way: not everybody can wrap their heads around computer security and privacy on the internet, but almost everyone can tell when an app isn’t pleasant to use or has gaping holes in its feature set. In short, if any E2EE messenger is going to come to dominate IM, its developers are going to invest just as much time and effort into its UI + UX as they do its encryption — you can’t ignore the former and wonder why the masses aren’t interested.
  - lloeki 9y ago
    > Because it works better. It's not just "working better", the experience is throughout downright stellar compared to anything else, on every aspect I can think of.
zoinkss 9y ago
Why is Telagram better than Signal?
- jakebasile 9y ago
  It isn't strictly speaking better. It has pros and cons compared to other systems just like any other service. You and your messaging partners must decide what trade offs you are willing to make. Personally Signal is nearly unusable for me (check my posting history for why, this has been coming up a lot recently). I think Telegram has the highest quality UX of any modern IM, yet I still mostly use Facebook Messenger because everyone is on it.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dzek69 9y ago
    Definitely. Telegram wins all with their UX with a ways sometimes you wouldn't expect from an IM app. Light native apps everywhere is a very big plus too. I'm aware it is not secure as I would like to but I'm gonna use whatever my friends use anyway. Most people I know uses about 3 IM apps and they don't bother caring about privacy anyway (by using products of Facebook and Google, where Telegram, despite it's problems is still better choice for privacy). I hope Telegram resolves issues everyone is concerned about. Or all my friends switch to Signal. Or something.
    - 18pfsmt 9y ago
      I would argue Telegram is more of a social network than IM, especially with the channels feature. Its successful growth can be attributed to its viral/network features, and certainly not its crypto.
- static_noise 9y ago
  WhatsApp is even better than Telegram.
  - 9y ago
archagon 9y ago
Political thoughts aside, I have to say that I'm extremely impressed with Telegram's macOS client, especially after Slack. It's very elegant and iOS-y without skimping on the power-user features expected from Mac apps. What a breath of fresh air! (I'm assuming TGUIKit is responsible: https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKit https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKi...)
stjohnswarts 9y ago
I don't know why people don't use signal more. It's a much better thought out tool.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- unicornporn 9y ago
  Tried to switch last month, but messages still didn't sync between desktop and mobile. Untenable. Whatsapp syncs and has E2EE I'd your phone is on and close. Wire might be an option too. I ended up preferring Matrix via Riot.im though...
- izacus 9y ago
  Because it has a significantly worse user experience.
  - tyfon 9y ago
    In what way? I've been using signal for a while and I have successfully converted all my family and friends to using it. That includes a 70+ year old mother and father. There have been no issues in using it's function from sending messages to video chat and everything in between.
    - konart 9y ago
      Does it has channel or something similar? If yes what are the popular ones? One of the reasons people use Telegran (aside from chats\groups\bots) - is channel, for many people this is new RSS.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      Disclaimer: I haven't used Signal's iOS app for conversations since 2015 ... because ... When I tried Signal, it frequently crashed, corrupted messages (requiring a reinstall of the iOS app), dropped messages, etc. As a result, all the people I persuaded to use it stopped and I currently have zero contacts on there.
horsecaptin 9y ago
How is this affected by Telegram losing the keys to the Russian government?
- Yetanfou 9y ago
  It remains to be seen whether they'll hand over those keys, as of yet this is not the case as far as known. The consequence of not handing over the keys would be for Telegram to be banned in Russia so I assume the opposite to be true as well: if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. If that happens I'll be looking for an alternative, preferably something self-hosted. A self-hosted Telegram server would be the best solution here as it would make it possible to keep the best parts of Telegram - the client applications - and replace the somewhat dodgy bits - the centralised server. Add federation between servers and the end result would be more or less the same, the difference being that it would be possible to keep your data private. So Pavel, if you're reading this, how 'bout it? Add an option for a private server for those who'd like to use Telegram in places where the powers that be are pulling tricks like in Russia. In that context it would be interesting to know how Telegram can survive in Iran, does the government there have access to anything they shouldn't?
  - sschueller 9y ago
    They always said, one day they will open source the servers. I hope that day comes soon.
  - lloeki 9y ago
    > if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. Sort of a canary by proxy. Maybe they could get (per-country, ideally) warrant canary pages on their web server.
  - konart 9y ago
    >if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. Russian here. FSB is bluffing yet again, just like they were bluffing with youtube block. Too many people use it, too many politicans use it and even troll army based in Olgino use it. They won't ban it.
unicornporn 9y ago
And soon mother Russia might have access to almost everyones conversations. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-loses-bid-to-stop-russia-from-getting-encryption-keys https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-... If that is not already the case...
- sschueller 9y ago
  Why are you using the therm "mother Russia"? Are you trying to politicize this conversation? People should stop worrying about whatsapp, telegream etc. The biggest security hole are the keyboards on your phone. Especially on android. Has anyone bothers to check what data for example Swiftkey collects or potentially could?
  - fermienrico 9y ago
    Just because B is potentially worse than A, lets forget about A and discuss how bad B is.
- hnarn 9y ago
  "To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to force us to give up any data. Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems around the world. To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments." https://telegram.org/faq https://telegram.org/faq
  - akvadrako 9y ago
    If telegram continues to have a legal presence in Russia and/or not be blocked, they will have to do what the Russian authorities say.
senthilnayagam 9y ago
you know every ICO must have a telegram group besides, GitHub and whitepaper. assuming 5 million of the 200 million are there for the ICO's :)
unicornporn 9y ago
Time to go Riot! https://riot.im https://riot.im Solid E2E crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated, clients for most platforms, Android client on F-Droid. [1] https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html
- aquadrop 9y ago
  And an awful name for general purpose chat app...
  - che_shirecat 9y ago
    Discord seems to be doing just fine. Nobody really gives a shit about product names.
    - aquadrop 9y ago
      Nobody gives a shit unless it's a bad name
- bogle 9y ago
  It's good to have e2e crypto but the clients aren't very pretty. That's going to put folk off. Just saying. I use Signal myself and it's nicer than Riot, IMHO, but I can't get anyone else on to it other than my other half.
- yogsototh 9y ago
  After the slack irc apocalypse, we switched to matrix.org and riot with my friends. I must say, I'm really impressed by the quality of the product. Regarding its popularity I would have expected a lower quality product. In fact the UX and the UI are superior to slack. Furthermore while not needed, it was _very_ easy to host my own matrix server and to use bridges to access my preferred IRC channels. So my server keep track of the messages written when I'm not logged in. Really its just great and I recommend everyone to give it a try.
- swebs 9y ago
noname120 9y ago
Anyone knows what they mean with “active users”? If I open the app once per month but never send / receive any message, am I an active user?
- rexfuzzle 9y ago
  First line of the article: In the last 30 days 200m users sent a message
pmcpinto 9y ago
I'm wondering how the ICO craze impacted Telegram MAU. Most of the ICOs focus their community management efforts on Telegram, and a lot of them have a huge number of members, more than 50k in some situations
pmlnr 9y ago
I like Telegram and I find it one of the best messengers ever. They have true native applications, a library, there's even a decent libpurple plugin. However, I couldn't get people to use it. It's constantly under political pressure because big bad encryption and Bad People are using it, despite the fact that lot of other messengers offer the same (including basically anything with OTR plugins, say, ICQ via Pidgin). Telegram could and should be great, but the pressure needs to go away from it. I really wonder why Whatsapp, with it's encrypted-by-default approach is not under this level of attack. It's good I'm not into conspiracy theories. Anyway, in the end, I ended up using it with my wife and nobody else. This made me realise I could just set up an XMPP server (Prosody in this case) next to my already existing mail server and use that with her. At least I have complete control over that.
- yAnonymous 9y ago
  Every app that has data security as one of its main selling points should be based in the EU. The EU is responsible for a lot of crap, but at this point they're the biggest government institution in the world that still takes protection of user data seriously. Basing their company in Russia, they knew exactly that the government would come for the data eventually.
  - lloeki 9y ago
    You might want to take a look at this nearby comment and reassess: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16657105 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16657105
  - jhasse 9y ago
    The company was never based in Russia. It was based in Berlin and now the headquarters are in Dubai: https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-about-its-connections-to-the-kremlin?zd=1&zi=gop4kgki https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-...
codedokode 9y ago
Telegram is awful. First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in without having a phone nearby. Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers. Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time.
- Anon1096 9y ago
  On reading people's messages, though it may not be a popular sentiment on HN, "Administering a mail host is sort of like being a nurse; there's a brief period at the start when the thought of seeing people's privates might be vaguely titillating in a theoretical sense, but that sort of thing doesn't last long when it's up against the daily reality of shit, piss, blood, and vomit. Now that I think about it, administering a mail host is exactly like being a nurse, only people die slightly less often."
- jhasse 9y ago
  > First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in without having a phone nearby. You can set-up a password. Also you can login with a Telegram device nearby, e.g. a tablet or laptop. No phone required. > Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers. No, you can deny access or don't use the app from your phone. Contacts can be added by username, too. > Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time. No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on their servers.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    >No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on their servers. This feels dishonest to me. Nobody ever uses the secret chats because Telegram devs have deliberately made them impossible to use.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      I would guess that usage is definitely below 1%, but it is possible to use them and I am using them from time to time without problems.
amirathi 9y ago
No ads, no investors, no shareholders. What pays the bills then? How does the future looks like?
- opencl 9y ago
  Pavel Durov made hundreds of millions of dollars from VK and has mostly been funding it himself so far. But there was an ICO last month that raised ~$850 million.
jorvi 9y ago
For everyone saying Telegram/Durov will just get leaned on by Russia: 1. Durov got ousted out of his own company (VK, basically Facebook in Russia) by Putin. He then decided to live in exile in Germany 2. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest privacy laws in the world), not Russia 3. Their keys are segmented and hosted in different jurisdictions, that are picked to be likely antithetical to each other. This means an adversary has to go through multiple legal systems, and power blocs (China, EU, N. America) can’t just use their regional sway to force key collection. If there is one thing you can dislike Telegram for, its that they rolled MTProto instead of something more default. But in terms of personel, legal and UI/UX, they’re golden.
- adventured 9y ago
  Does Durov have family living in Russia? If he does, there's always a way to lean on him if Putin decides it could be of value to the national interests.
  - jorvi 9y ago
    I think so yes, but by that logic you cannot even trust Open Whisper Systems (who provide the encryption for WhatsApp, Signal, and Facebook Messenger). I mean, with that high stakes there is big enough incentive for global temporary cooperation among some intelligence agencies to lean on Moxie (or someone else’s) family. Edit: not meant as a whataboutism, Russia would certainly be more aggressive in doing so, and Durov is an easier target.
    - 18pfsmt 9y ago
      OWS does not provide the encryption for those services, they just designed the protocol and helped them implement it. I don't mean to be pedantic, but words matter in this circumstance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol
- jhasse 9y ago
  > 2. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest privacy laws in the world), not Russia They moved to Dubai: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-russian-crusader-says-his-5-billion-app-can-t-be-bought https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-r...
908087 9y ago
Telegram seems to be on a mission to discourage people from using actual secure messaging apps. Sadly, their bullshit PR seems to be working very well, as I constantly find myself having to correct people on "technical" forums who are suggesting it as an "encrypted messaging app".
betimsl 9y ago
Congratulations. I as one of those 200M users ask you kindly to please add Kosova (+383) since entry codes +386, +377 and +381 will be disabled by the august of this year.
Molaxx 9y ago
It's really weird that an app so lacking in security has a reputation for good security and privacy. In Israel there's a huge phenomena where the illegal weed trade went telegram (they call it telegrass) people actually have to give their identity (photo of themselves holding their ID) to potential dealers so the can buy some weed. Somehow people think it's reasonable to pass this sort of information because telegram is secured and encrypted.
dcu 9y ago
simple, fast, secure, reliable. definitely the best messaging service right now.
Canada 9y ago
I wish Telegram would just adopt the double ratchet and make everything E2E by default. I don't see what they would have to lose by doing so. Their secret chats are so annoying. No multi device support. And the cleartext everything by default. Blah.

198 points by foxfired 9y ago

Despite Telegram's shortcomings in not using well supported crypto and not having default end to end encryption on all conversations. Their clients for both iOS and mac are amazing in that they are native. And unlike WhatsApp you don't need to carry your phone with you all the time just to send a message to someone on desktop. Their bot API is also really rich. I am thinking of rewriting some of the Alfred workflows I wrote in Go as Telegram bots. For example I always wanted my Web Searches workflow (https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches) be present on my phone in some way. It seems I can actually do just that and reuse the Go code I wrote already.

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
Here you go https://www.whatsapp.com/download/ https://www.whatsapp.com/download/ Also, Telegram has private keys stored on their server, and recently the Russian government demanded they hand over the key otherwise they will be banned from Russia. This can only happen because the key is on their server. I think that's a big deal.
- nikivi 9y ago
  WhatsApp mac app is Electron wrapper over web chat. And it still requires your phone to be present and on battery to chat.
  - unicornporn 9y ago
    > And it still requires your phone to be present and on battery to chat. That's a cheap price to pay for E2EE only.
    - Tecuane 9y ago
      Wire[1], another E2EE chat application (using libsignal, just like WhatsApp and Signal itself), does not require this. It also has open-sourced its client and server applications[2], and is in the process of documenting how to run them yourself. It also has a pretty solid API[3]. One downside for JS haters, though, is that while the application isn't a wrapper for the site it is still Electron. 1. https://wire.com/en/security/ https://wire.com/en/security/ 2. https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server 3. https://developer.wire.com https://developer.wire.com
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - unicornporn 9y ago
        I'd recommend https://about.riot.im/ https://about.riot.im/ Solid crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated. [1] https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html
        Tecuane 9y ago
        In Matrix, E2EE isn't enabled by default[1], and the option to enable it is in fact marked with a warning that it comes with potentially unwanted side-effects. This isn't the same, and the arguments that call recommending Telegram for E2EE encryption disingenuous apply to Matrix/Riot recommendations too. One other issue I have with Matrix is the fact that they're in the process of completely rewriting their reference implementation in Go despite the fact that - as far as I remember - the first one, in Python, isn't entirely complete[2]. Combined with the app-bridge song and dance[3] there's too much in flux for me to recommend in good conscience. Finally, and perhaps most importantly (speaking as a "regular" user - the type needed to achieve mass adoption), the client is horrendous. This is especially apparent when compared with Wire, but I'd go as far as saying it's apparent even when compared with some IRC clients. At least Signal's UI/UX is passable. Encryption didn't catapult Telegram to 200 million monthly users. A slick UI, a half-decent UX, and some good marketing did. 1. Your link - https://about.riot.im/security/ https://about.riot.im/security/ 2. https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#introduction https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse#introduction 3. https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge
- jakebasile 9y ago
  WhatsApp desktop is an Electron app that is leagues behind the Telegram clients. It also requires your phone to be on and connected to the network. It's not comparable at all. As far as I know, secret Telegram chats don't have a private key stored anywhere but your phone.
- crowbahr 9y ago
  And WhatsApp is Facebook. It's kinda a bad deal all 'round.
- Aoyagi 9y ago
  "This can only happen because the key is on their server." No, they can ask them for the keys even if they don't have them on their servers. And one would think that a likely response would be "We can't do that, we don't store the keys on our servers". Which is exactly what happened https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/21/telegram_ordered_hand_over_keys/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/21/telegram_ordered_ha...
- codedokode 9y ago
  It doesn't mean anything. Once you have allowed Durov to read your contact list and to store your messages on his server, you cannot control what we will do with them. Even without any laws Durov can voluntarily share this data with any government or corporation and you won't be able to prevent this.
deleted 9y ago
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danielbarla 9y ago
I'm also a big fan of the bot API. I think it's very elegant in its approach to solving the problem of spam (bots can't really initiate chats, they can only respond to messages, or post to chats / groups where they were directly invited by a human). The performance and convenience of their desktop app is also very good. As a "I'll use it if I have to" WhatsApp user, I find having to re-authenticate the web app basically every time I launch it, and it constantly complaining about me switching off WhatsApp on my phone is almost a dealbreaker.
nmca 9y ago
I also wrote a wrapper for their bot API to send myself notifications from a server, 10/10 painless, easy, reliable so far. Would recommend.
pqs 9y ago
I agree, without taking security into consideration, Telegram's user experience is great. The clients are very nice, as the data is stored on the server, you can access it from any device (great on desktops and tablets, I hate not being able to send whatsapp messages from my iPad) and it doesn't fill your phone with the stupid videos people send to groups (many of my family members ask me why their phones are full and WhatsApp is always the culprit). Furthermore, Telegram Channels are great. It is all the advantages of Twitter, without the noise. Some Spanish journalists that I like are starting to create Telegram Channels and it is a great experience to just receive their messages, without the RTs, and angry answers of other users. Furthermore, I have a Channel myself which I use to publish opinions. It has only 10 followers, which are friends of mine which I know will appreciate. I really like the experience. Also, Telegram has great integration with IFTTT, which I use a lot!
collyw 9y ago
Yes I wish people would start using it. I am more or less locked into Whatsapp because many of my friends won't change. Its annoying siting at the computer, a Whatsapp message comes in and you need to switch to the shitty tocuhscreen keyboard then back again. I can reply to a telegram message from the computer and use a proper keyboard. The context switch seems far less interrupting to me as a result.
- Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
  This. I absolutely hate that. By the way, there is Whatsapp Web where you can type with your keyboard. But it's clunky (somewhat less clunky with the Opera integration, if you use Opera), fickle and still requires you to have your phone on and with enough battery in the same wifi as the computer, which isn't always trivial.
  - Liquid_Fire 9y ago
    Just a small correction: it doesn't need to be on the same network as the computer.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
      Thanks, I thought it did.
- spery 9y ago
  I was in the same boat, but I decided to just make a jump. I've managed to persuade few closest friends to just try it out (half of them also ditched whatsapp altogether. With rest I just communicate via SMS. While I do lack groups, I've found out I'm not missing out much.
codedokode 9y ago
Of course they have good apps because they hire best developers to make you give them away all of your contacts and messages.
wslh 9y ago
Very concerned about the security but I want to add that Telegram voice calls work excellent while with WhatsApp I have constant hiccups.

lasgsf 9y ago

Love telegram. Simple easy to use.

gpm 9y ago

For some reason they felt the need to spam my phone and computer with a notification about this.

quxbar 9y ago
This was my only and immediate reaction. It was a serious faux pas.
- bonellia 9y ago
  Maybe they just got excited to share it, I dunno.
  - hobofan 9y ago
    Maybe it's signalling in preparation for their ICO.
fwdpropaganda 9y ago
What do you mean, "spam"? I got this (and I was happy to) because I'm subscribed to their official channels. If you don't want to receive it, maybe you should unsubscribe to their channels. Or do you mean something else?
- gpm 9y ago
  I mean that when I signed up for Telegram I never checked any boxes agreeing to recieve marketeing materials. Since signing up for Telegram I have not joined any channels or done anything that could be interpreted as consent to recieving marketing materials. And regardless the sent me spam about this (via the same channel that they sent me a code I needed to login to a second device).
- ReverseCold 9y ago
  It came from the service notifications channel, aka the same one that you get login tokens from. It's one message though, I personally don't mind.

andrewfelix 9y ago

Why is Telegram getting so much better traction over open source alternatives such as Wire?

gpm 9y ago
Because it works better. I tried Wire first, I really wanted to like it. It lost messages. It got it's crypto state horribly confused and couldn't read messages from one of my contacts. It maxes out at some annoyingly low number of "devices" - which includes things like different browsers, different OSes, private browsing windows opened on someone elses computer, etc. And it generally felt like a poorly built UI.
- huhtenberg 9y ago
  I too tried Wire and was really hoping it'd be good. It was just OK instead. I haven't seen lost messages, but I've seen them taking several minutes to go through with both clients online and on the same LAN. The UI was not quite there yet too. Routine basic operations required extra taps, it felt less snappy and responsive than you'd expect it to be. So, yeah, it can be used in a pinch, but it's not yet ready as a drop-in replacement for Telegram.
- kitsunesoba 9y ago
  It really can’t be understated how important good UI+UX are when it comes to driving adoption of an IM app. Security/privacy is great but most people aren’t willing to use an app that’s heavy or has rough edges or is frustrating in any way. Think of it this way: not everybody can wrap their heads around computer security and privacy on the internet, but almost everyone can tell when an app isn’t pleasant to use or has gaping holes in its feature set. In short, if any E2EE messenger is going to come to dominate IM, its developers are going to invest just as much time and effort into its UI + UX as they do its encryption — you can’t ignore the former and wonder why the masses aren’t interested.
- lloeki 9y ago
  > Because it works better. It's not just "working better", the experience is throughout downright stellar compared to anything else, on every aspect I can think of.

zoinkss 9y ago

Why is Telagram better than Signal?

jakebasile 9y ago
It isn't strictly speaking better. It has pros and cons compared to other systems just like any other service. You and your messaging partners must decide what trade offs you are willing to make. Personally Signal is nearly unusable for me (check my posting history for why, this has been coming up a lot recently). I think Telegram has the highest quality UX of any modern IM, yet I still mostly use Facebook Messenger because everyone is on it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dzek69 9y ago
  Definitely. Telegram wins all with their UX with a ways sometimes you wouldn't expect from an IM app. Light native apps everywhere is a very big plus too. I'm aware it is not secure as I would like to but I'm gonna use whatever my friends use anyway. Most people I know uses about 3 IM apps and they don't bother caring about privacy anyway (by using products of Facebook and Google, where Telegram, despite it's problems is still better choice for privacy). I hope Telegram resolves issues everyone is concerned about. Or all my friends switch to Signal. Or something.
  - 18pfsmt 9y ago
    I would argue Telegram is more of a social network than IM, especially with the channels feature. Its successful growth can be attributed to its viral/network features, and certainly not its crypto.
static_noise 9y ago
WhatsApp is even better than Telegram.
- 9y ago

archagon 9y ago

Political thoughts aside, I have to say that I'm extremely impressed with Telegram's macOS client, especially after Slack. It's very elegant and iOS-y without skimping on the power-user features expected from Mac apps. What a breath of fresh air! (I'm assuming TGUIKit is responsible: https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKit https://github.com/overtake/TelegramSwift/tree/master/TGUIKi...)

stjohnswarts 9y ago

I don't know why people don't use signal more. It's a much better thought out tool.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
unicornporn 9y ago
Tried to switch last month, but messages still didn't sync between desktop and mobile. Untenable. Whatsapp syncs and has E2EE I'd your phone is on and close. Wire might be an option too. I ended up preferring Matrix via Riot.im though...
izacus 9y ago
Because it has a significantly worse user experience.
- tyfon 9y ago
  In what way? I've been using signal for a while and I have successfully converted all my family and friends to using it. That includes a 70+ year old mother and father. There have been no issues in using it's function from sending messages to video chat and everything in between.
  - konart 9y ago
    Does it has channel or something similar? If yes what are the popular ones? One of the reasons people use Telegran (aside from chats\groups\bots) - is channel, for many people this is new RSS.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    Disclaimer: I haven't used Signal's iOS app for conversations since 2015 ... because ... When I tried Signal, it frequently crashed, corrupted messages (requiring a reinstall of the iOS app), dropped messages, etc. As a result, all the people I persuaded to use it stopped and I currently have zero contacts on there.

horsecaptin 9y ago

How is this affected by Telegram losing the keys to the Russian government?

Yetanfou 9y ago
It remains to be seen whether they'll hand over those keys, as of yet this is not the case as far as known. The consequence of not handing over the keys would be for Telegram to be banned in Russia so I assume the opposite to be true as well: if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. If that happens I'll be looking for an alternative, preferably something self-hosted. A self-hosted Telegram server would be the best solution here as it would make it possible to keep the best parts of Telegram - the client applications - and replace the somewhat dodgy bits - the centralised server. Add federation between servers and the end result would be more or less the same, the difference being that it would be possible to keep your data private. So Pavel, if you're reading this, how 'bout it? Add an option for a private server for those who'd like to use Telegram in places where the powers that be are pulling tricks like in Russia. In that context it would be interesting to know how Telegram can survive in Iran, does the government there have access to anything they shouldn't?
- sschueller 9y ago
  They always said, one day they will open source the servers. I hope that day comes soon.
- lloeki 9y ago
  > if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. Sort of a canary by proxy. Maybe they could get (per-country, ideally) warrant canary pages on their web server.
- konart 9y ago
  >if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. Russian here. FSB is bluffing yet again, just like they were bluffing with youtube block. Too many people use it, too many politicans use it and even troll army based in Olgino use it. They won't ban it.

unicornporn 9y ago

And soon mother Russia might have access to almost everyones conversations. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-loses-bid-to-stop-russia-from-getting-encryption-keys https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/telegram-... If that is not already the case...

sschueller 9y ago
Why are you using the therm "mother Russia"? Are you trying to politicize this conversation? People should stop worrying about whatsapp, telegream etc. The biggest security hole are the keyboards on your phone. Especially on android. Has anyone bothers to check what data for example Swiftkey collects or potentially could?
- fermienrico 9y ago
  Just because B is potentially worse than A, lets forget about A and discuss how bad B is.
hnarn 9y ago
"To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to force us to give up any data. Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems around the world. To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments." https://telegram.org/faq https://telegram.org/faq
- akvadrako 9y ago
  If telegram continues to have a legal presence in Russia and/or not be blocked, they will have to do what the Russian authorities say.

senthilnayagam 9y ago

you know every ICO must have a telegram group besides, GitHub and whitepaper. assuming 5 million of the 200 million are there for the ICO's :)

unicornporn 9y ago

Time to go Riot! https://riot.im https://riot.im Solid E2E crypto (Megolm)[1], open source, federated, clients for most platforms, Android client on F-Droid. [1] https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html https://matrix.org/docs/guides/e2e_implementation.html

aquadrop 9y ago
And an awful name for general purpose chat app...
- che_shirecat 9y ago
  Discord seems to be doing just fine. Nobody really gives a shit about product names.
  - aquadrop 9y ago
    Nobody gives a shit unless it's a bad name
bogle 9y ago
It's good to have e2e crypto but the clients aren't very pretty. That's going to put folk off. Just saying. I use Signal myself and it's nicer than Riot, IMHO, but I can't get anyone else on to it other than my other half.
yogsototh 9y ago
After the slack irc apocalypse, we switched to matrix.org and riot with my friends. I must say, I'm really impressed by the quality of the product. Regarding its popularity I would have expected a lower quality product. In fact the UX and the UI are superior to slack. Furthermore while not needed, it was _very_ easy to host my own matrix server and to use bridges to access my preferred IRC channels. So my server keep track of the messages written when I'm not logged in. Really its just great and I recommend everyone to give it a try.
swebs 9y ago

noname120 9y ago

Anyone knows what they mean with “active users”? If I open the app once per month but never send / receive any message, am I an active user?

rexfuzzle 9y ago
First line of the article: In the last 30 days 200m users sent a message

pmcpinto 9y ago

I'm wondering how the ICO craze impacted Telegram MAU. Most of the ICOs focus their community management efforts on Telegram, and a lot of them have a huge number of members, more than 50k in some situations

pmlnr 9y ago

I like Telegram and I find it one of the best messengers ever. They have true native applications, a library, there's even a decent libpurple plugin. However, I couldn't get people to use it. It's constantly under political pressure because big bad encryption and Bad People are using it, despite the fact that lot of other messengers offer the same (including basically anything with OTR plugins, say, ICQ via Pidgin). Telegram could and should be great, but the pressure needs to go away from it. I really wonder why Whatsapp, with it's encrypted-by-default approach is not under this level of attack. It's good I'm not into conspiracy theories. Anyway, in the end, I ended up using it with my wife and nobody else. This made me realise I could just set up an XMPP server (Prosody in this case) next to my already existing mail server and use that with her. At least I have complete control over that.

yAnonymous 9y ago
Every app that has data security as one of its main selling points should be based in the EU. The EU is responsible for a lot of crap, but at this point they're the biggest government institution in the world that still takes protection of user data seriously. Basing their company in Russia, they knew exactly that the government would come for the data eventually.
- lloeki 9y ago
  You might want to take a look at this nearby comment and reassess: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16657105 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16657105
- jhasse 9y ago
  The company was never based in Russia. It was based in Berlin and now the headquarters are in Dubai: https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-about-its-connections-to-the-kremlin?zd=1&zi=gop4kgki https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-...

codedokode 9y ago

Telegram is awful. First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in without having a phone nearby. Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers. Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time.

Anon1096 9y ago
On reading people's messages, though it may not be a popular sentiment on HN, "Administering a mail host is sort of like being a nurse; there's a brief period at the start when the thought of seeing people's privates might be vaguely titillating in a theoretical sense, but that sort of thing doesn't last long when it's up against the daily reality of shit, piss, blood, and vomit. Now that I think about it, administering a mail host is exactly like being a nurse, only people die slightly less often."
jhasse 9y ago
> First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in without having a phone nearby. You can set-up a password. Also you can login with a Telegram device nearby, e.g. a tablet or laptop. No phone required. > Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers. No, you can deny access or don't use the app from your phone. Contacts can be added by username, too. > Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time. No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on their servers.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  >No, the so-called secret chats are end-to-end encrypted and not stored on their servers. This feels dishonest to me. Nobody ever uses the secret chats because Telegram devs have deliberately made them impossible to use.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    I would guess that usage is definitely below 1%, but it is possible to use them and I am using them from time to time without problems.

amirathi 9y ago

No ads, no investors, no shareholders. What pays the bills then? How does the future looks like?

opencl 9y ago
Pavel Durov made hundreds of millions of dollars from VK and has mostly been funding it himself so far. But there was an ICO last month that raised ~$850 million.

jorvi 9y ago

For everyone saying Telegram/Durov will just get leaned on by Russia: 1. Durov got ousted out of his own company (VK, basically Facebook in Russia) by Putin. He then decided to live in exile in Germany 2. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest privacy laws in the world), not Russia 3. Their keys are segmented and hosted in different jurisdictions, that are picked to be likely antithetical to each other. This means an adversary has to go through multiple legal systems, and power blocs (China, EU, N. America) can’t just use their regional sway to force key collection. If there is one thing you can dislike Telegram for, its that they rolled MTProto instead of something more default. But in terms of personel, legal and UI/UX, they’re golden.

adventured 9y ago
Does Durov have family living in Russia? If he does, there's always a way to lean on him if Putin decides it could be of value to the national interests.
- jorvi 9y ago
  I think so yes, but by that logic you cannot even trust Open Whisper Systems (who provide the encryption for WhatsApp, Signal, and Facebook Messenger). I mean, with that high stakes there is big enough incentive for global temporary cooperation among some intelligence agencies to lean on Moxie (or someone else’s) family. Edit: not meant as a whataboutism, Russia would certainly be more aggressive in doing so, and Durov is an easier target.
  - 18pfsmt 9y ago
    OWS does not provide the encryption for those services, they just designed the protocol and helped them implement it. I don't mean to be pedantic, but words matter in this circumstance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol
jhasse 9y ago
> 2. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest privacy laws in the world), not Russia They moved to Dubai: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-russian-crusader-says-his-5-billion-app-can-t-be-bought https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/cryptic-r...

908087 9y ago

Telegram seems to be on a mission to discourage people from using actual secure messaging apps. Sadly, their bullshit PR seems to be working very well, as I constantly find myself having to correct people on "technical" forums who are suggesting it as an "encrypted messaging app".

betimsl 9y ago

Congratulations. I as one of those 200M users ask you kindly to please add Kosova (+383) since entry codes +386, +377 and +381 will be disabled by the august of this year.

Molaxx 9y ago

It's really weird that an app so lacking in security has a reputation for good security and privacy. In Israel there's a huge phenomena where the illegal weed trade went telegram (they call it telegrass) people actually have to give their identity (photo of themselves holding their ID) to potential dealers so the can buy some weed. Somehow people think it's reasonable to pass this sort of information because telegram is secured and encrypted.

dcu 9y ago

simple, fast, secure, reliable. definitely the best messaging service right now.

Canada 9y ago

I wish Telegram would just adopt the double ratchet and make everything E2E by default. I don't see what they would have to lose by doing so. Their secret chats are so annoying. No multi device support. And the cleartext everything by default. Blah.