10 ms·

Riot, Blizzard, Twitch and others are teaming up to fight toxic gaming behavior

77 points by thg 9y ago

pussypusspuss 9y ago
Is this news for hackers
iooi 9y ago
I would love to be optimistic about this, but I don't think the solution to this is going to be "creating a consistent set of standards and rules across multiple multinational companies". In my opinion, some of these games are bound to create toxic situations when playing with randoms. Take a game like League, where a single player that's underperforming can cause the entire team to lose. This dynamic is core to the game, and it's the root cause of toxicity. Compare that to a game like Counter Strike, where an underperformer might not drag their team down that much, and there is an option to kick the person from the team. The game is still winnable -- it will be harder, but it would not be impossible like in League. Also, surprised not to see Valve in this list. Dota 2 and Counter Strike are still pretty big titles, even if they haven't made a game in a while.
allthenews 9y ago
I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists dictating their versions morality to me. I'll bet this will turn into the usual identity politics nightmare that ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority. If this were such a massive problem, millions of people wouldn't be spending billions of dollars and hundreds millions of man hours playing these games. This is about politics, not gaming experience.
- sergiotapia 9y ago
  I hope for everyones sake that this is about gaming experience, and not politics. But eh who knows, you're most likely right.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    If people were able to keep their racial hatred and sexual slurs out of gaming, then it might be able to avoid politics.
    - dwringer 9y ago
      People kill each other mercilessly in games all the time; that doesn't happen too much, at least overtly, in most countries' political systems.
      - pjc50 9y ago
        The death is fake, the racism isn't.
        dwringer 9y ago
        In the instances which are the subject of this article, I am sure you're correct. My point is that in-game behavior can be decoupled from behavior in the real world. I've seen in-game bigotry between factions in MMO's, and while I'm sure many of these people are also prone to such behavior in real life, others are role-playing; and although the behavior may be considered toxic, it may seem "fake" to the participants (and some politicians have argued in the past that "fake" murders in video games are also toxic).
        dbt00 9y ago
        I've come around to the idea that role playing racism/sexism in gaming is just a dodge. It's the "just a prank bro"/"can't you take a joke?" of online shitlording. And the vast majority of the stuff that goes down in these games doesn't even fall under obvious role playing -- it's just abuse.
        deleted 9y ago
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        9y ago
- Mononokay 9y ago
  > I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists forcing their versions morality onto me. Unless you're using your own servers for the game and they're still doing this, they aren't really forcing you to do anything. They're their servers, so they go by their rules. If you don't like it, you can just, y'know, not play the game.
  - allthenews 9y ago
    I was going to agree that forcing was a less than ideal word choice, hence my edit, but it occurs to me that we've invested time and money into these games, only to have rules potentially changed on the whim of developers. They're not exactly going to issue refunds to suddenly unhappy players. Moreover, when these developers have access to the minds of hundreds of millions of people, including children, there is a degree of cultural forcing involved. These developers' ideas of right and wrong are potentially influencing society, and this is something that non gamers have little control over. At the very least, journalists have a responsibility to recognize that toxicity is not universal. One could argue that there is potential for priming young people toward obscenity laws and nanny statism, when they are conditioned to look toward authority for resolution of all problems. Farfetched, perhaps, but I personally believe that people need to learn to deal with such problems on their own, because external solutions are not always available or enforceable. This could easily have unforseen consequences.
- scrollaway 9y ago
  > I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists forcing their versions morality onto me. You know what, I would. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want these same people regulating speech or whatever. But I do want them regulating their own userbases. I do want moderators on HN enforcing the HN guidelines, just like I want Blizzard to enforce the "Blizzard guidelines" in their games, whatever they may be. And honestly, the fact you think this "ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority" tells me you're part of the problem; you're probably often toxic to other players (even if you don't notice it), get your account muted/locked out/whatever, and then think that you did nothing wrong and everyone's in the same boat as you. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen this. People who think their behaviour is OK, who think they're not making the experience worse for other players. Then they wonder why they got banned. They go on the game's forums, subreddit, etc and complain "[studio] is banning people randomly!". And then some fed up dev from the studio pulls up chat logs and reveals some disgusting behaviour. > If this were such a massive problem, millions of people wouldn't be spending billions of dollars and hundreds millions of man hours playing these games. Thousands of companies are spending millions of dollars fighting that problem because it's affecting their players' experience, which ultimately affects players' willingness to buy and play the studio's games. Once again, that you think they'd willingly cater to a "tiny fraction" of their base, is absurd and gives a glimpse of your true nature.
  - allthenews 9y ago
    >And honestly, the fact you think this "ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority" tells me you're part of the problem; you're probably often toxic to other players (even if you don't notice it), get your account muted/locked out/whatever, and then think that you did nothing wrong and everyone's in the same boat as you. Sorry for having the wrong opinion, but personal attacks are uncalled for. Ironic. So, to illustrate my point, would you prefer that heavy handed mods step in to censor you according to their definition of toxicity, or would you rather have the freedom to continue this discussion to possibly reach some resolution? I prefer to put faith in peoples' ability to resolve conflict without vague rules regarding inconsistent notions of toxicity, especially in the context of gaming, where I can leave and join another game more or less any time.
- deleted 9y ago
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- dandersh 9y ago
  Every time someone says "this is about politics" or "they should leave politics out of it" what they mean is the politics they don't agree with. Same applies to the use of "identity politics".
- deleted 9y ago
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- crstinin 9y ago
  Heads up buddy. I just logged in because I wanted to thank you for your opinion. You're 100% spot on. Don't get discouraged by the downvotes.
- david-cako 9y ago
  Obviously unpopular opinion, but the reason I enjoy online games is the wild-west attitude. CS:GO, Dota, League, etc all are very exciting to me because the point of the game is engineering your team mates, learning who is going to be obnoxious, shit talking with them, etc. Every once in a while games will be 100% ruined by someone, but I find it's very rare. Cost of playing the game, and it happens equally as often on the other team no doubt (I'd argue more, because my entire focus is on team cohesion). I really don't understand why people think it's okay to push a perfectly sanitary online gaming atmosphere. To me the whole point is that it's NOT sanitary.
  - dbt00 9y ago
    Here's the thing. How much that toxic shit bothers you is a function of multiple things, but ultimately it's a bell curve. Some people are going to fall to the far left and think it's great, some people are going to fall to the far right and be unwilling or unable to engage with even the slightest amount of shit. You're at the median of your own experience, but what if you're near the far left of the bell curve across all players?
    - LyndsySimon 9y ago
      > what if you're near the far left of the bell curve across all players? I probably am - I honestly enjoy the trash-talking, even when it grossly violates cultural norms. I feel like it's a part of the "gamer culture" that I enjoy. I also get that there are (probably a lot) of people that don't want it. I just hope that there will continue to be a place for people who don't want to be subject to the censorship.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    To be honest, I really don't understand why it's acceptable to constantly spew racial or sexual slurs at other people. I also don't understand why it's acceptable to throw a ranked match because you believe someone else did something wrong. I don't want either of those to happen. When they do, it ruins the fun for me. After a while, I will stop playing. Plenty of others agree with me, which is why these companies are taking this seriously. They don't want people to stop playing.
- deleted 9y ago
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- always_good 9y ago
  I used to think the same when I started a forum. But after 10 years, I can say with confidence that you're wrong and won't create the ecosystem that you want. For example, by allowing toxicity to be rampant, you're really just catering to a tiny fraction of people, the toxic people. The opposite of what you think. If you want to play with quality, respectful players, you'll need to put in the elbow grease to create that ecosystem. Compare the average HN comment (moderated) to the average /r/programming comment (unmoderated). I don't see a lot of "identity politics" going on around the moderation here as you seem to suggest must coexist with such moderation.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  You're already accepting HN dictating their version of morality to you.
WA 9y ago
Man, I wouldn't want to be a community manager in those games. Trash-talking is one thing – and I'm quite quick with the mute-button (and usually let them know), but something that is incredibly hard to spot/punish is behavior in competitive games. Once you reach a certain skill level, a single guy on the team makes or breaks the entire match. With League of Legends, the problem is that a match lasts at least 20 minutes (not sure if this is still the case) until someone can surrender. A while back, I then played Heroes of the Storm, where most matches aren't longer than 20 minutes. Nowadays, I played a lot of Rocket League, where each match is 5 minutes (or 7 at most, depending on the amount of "goal cams"). But still, they can feel a bit like an eternity, if your mate decides that "you're a fucking noob, because you missed the ball 10 seconds into the game and we certainly can't win in the next 4:50 minutes" and just plays like an idiot. Sure, you can report those players, but ultimately, someone has to review the games and I suspect this is quite impossible to achieve. So, what's the solution? I don't know. Maybe the solution is on an individual level – stop playing "for the win", but try to enjoy the ingame moments (like "I hit the ball mid-air" or "I achieved a pentakill"). Or only play with friends on your team and mute the other team. After all, in most competitive games, you achieve about 50% win rate anyways, once you reach a certain mid-range skill level and don't play with your friends, because the match making algorithms will sometimes give you good team mates and other times bad, or toxic, ones.
- staffordrj 9y ago
  > Sure, you can report those players, but ultimately, someone has to review the games and I suspect this is quite impossible to achieve. They don't have to review the games if one account has many reports of "Unsportsmanlike conduct".
  - purple-again 9y ago
    Tried and failed. You just reinvented the downvote button.
  - throwaway2048 9y ago
    Then people who had a bad game get reported and banned.
scrollaway 9y ago
I'm cautiously optimistic on this. I don't know what they can actually do, but I'll take anything at this point. Toxicity really ruins the gaming experience. Game devs and designers nowadays go out of their way to prevent people from being assholes to each other in games, but it still happens. Even games such as Hearthstone or Clash Royale, that are entirely limited to emotes, still develop a language around telling the opponent "fuck you". I'd argue that in games, it's worse than around the web. If someone's being a jerk to me on HN, Facebook, Twitter etc I can just choose to ignore them, block them, not mind them, etc. But in games you are forced to interact, either as co-op or opponent. Being matched up with respectful people (either as teammate or opponent) is one of the most rewarding things in gaming. And being matched up with assholes is one of the worst experiences. So every match you roll the dice on whether you're going to feel great or feel like shit by the end of the game, and it usually has nothing to do with winning or losing. I find that whenever I start truly enjoying a game, regularly being paired up with toxic people impacts the experience to the point of quitting. Both Overwatch and Rocket League, two delightful, fantastic and rewarding games, were completely ruined for me because of that.
- resonanttoe 9y ago
  I think you've hit on the core of the problem but the solution is always skated around. "But in games you are forced to interact, either as co-op or opponent." The typical response here is to give players a greater degree of blocking and selection, which I find to be particularly unappealling as it becomes a case of "whack-a-mole". Similarly muting toxic players works the same way, you have to expose yourself to it to find out if you want it blocked. For me, I'd opt for an option that is muting/deafening myself. Allow me to say I don't want to interact or be acted upon and have that apply globally. There is never an instance where I'd turn this back on and have these set throughout the duration of the game (I.E, I can't turn it back on, just to emote my fuck you and block the opponent from replying.) My ideal scenario in multiplayer games is to have the skill and randomness of human players without any of their personality. Games that do this reasonably well are games like PUBG, where I can mute the mic and there is no text chat. Similarly the game is frantic enough that taking the 20 seconds to emote your way to some obnoxious point backfires more routinely than not. (However I'm not a fan of the fact they have just introduced emotes... it bodes not well.) I think because of this there is a class of "not-multiplayer" online game players who want all the game play aspects that multiplayer has to offer, but none of the interactions. I'd sacrifice the respectful people matching rewards (and you're right, it's awesome when that happens) if it meant getting rid of dickheads. But that is up to the individual.
sergiotapia 9y ago
Noble goals, I hope they don't lose their way and try to overextend their influence by silencing non-"progressive" behavior or "wrongthink". I hope everybody wins. It seems like they're going to heavily censor popular streamers: "This is just all reality now. So streamers are ambassadors of culture bigger than just League of Legends or whichever game. They’re ambassadors of online life."
- NTripleOne 9y ago
  >I hope they don't lose their way and try to overextend their influence by silencing non-"progressive" behavior or "wrongthink" Blizzard already do.
danharaj 9y ago
Maybe I'll be able to play Overwatch again! I aged out of that environment so suddenly after I took a year long break from gaming, but to be honest it was never good for me to begin with.
justicezyx 9y ago
I thought China is the only one want to regulate their people's everyday behaviors... It turns out the whole idea of freedom is nothing but a degree of how alone one can live. The more alone the more free, but that isn't what freedom stands for...
- wnevets 9y ago
  I wish people would stop comparing policies of governments to the policies of a private company's online community.
  - verroq 9y ago
    Until they grow to become facebook size.
  - fein 9y ago
    Why? The management of an online community is just a pocket sized version of a full blown government. There's no reason to not make a comparison due to lolbertarian rationales.
    - wnevets 9y ago
      It's a lot harder to quit the NK government than it is to quit LoL
      - fein 9y ago
        Sure, but that's not what we're looking at. The behaviors of community moderation are comparable to those of a government.
        wnevets 9y ago
        Perhaps but the consequences of breaking the rules are nowhere near as devastating. It trivializes the human rights abuses by those governments by putting them in the same category as a video game chat
muse900 9y ago
Where is Valve... cs:go is the most toxic game i've ever played... and its one of those games which has no support team behind it, once you report something noone from the company gets to see your report... The amount of racist names etc that goes unpunished in there is unbelievable.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  Also a game where voice chat is required and muting someone means you'll have no information from that person.
- jelly 9y ago
  Valve have traditionally taken a hands-off approach to the communities surrounding its games; I would be surprised to see their name among the list and I like how they do things currently. Though I have experienced toxicity in CS:GO, it has been no worse than in other competitive games.
  - fenwick67 9y ago
    It was better when people hosting their own servers was the focus (CS:S and CS1.6). This way you could find a nice community, with good moderators and rules that you liked, and settle in. Nowadays you are just thrown in a blender with every other player.
    - jelly 9y ago
      That's exactly my feeling as well, a less-friendly player base is one of the unintended consequences of matchmaking
- dvlsg 9y ago
  Your name in cs:go is always your steam name. Shouldn't even need a specific support team for a game to find those (if anything, that makes it worse, though).
  - muse900 9y ago
dandersh 9y ago
Yea I don't see this working. For starters the problem isn't the games, or the enforcement mechanisms, it's the gamers. There are plenty of other competitive activities with "randoms" that do not result in this type of behavior. Another issue is that there will be those that get punished/removed that will play the victim and attribute it to politics, etc. You can see this beginning already in some of the comments in this thread about "dictating morality" and "silencing non-progressive behavior."
- empath75 9y ago
  Bad players drive out good players. If you had a game that had zero tolerance for shitty behavior and an enforced code of conduct, you’d have a better community.
  - dandersh 9y ago
    Sure. As long as you: Throughly and clearly defined shitty behavior that had wide agreement. Had an effective form of zero tolerance that was both deterrent and enforcement. Had a clear code of conduct that was neutral to all. Correctly identified players and prevented false positives. Was willing to remove anyone, no matter how popular they were. Was willing to remove anyone, no matter how profitable they were. You know what else would make for a better community? Better citizens.
ManlyBread 9y ago
From what I heard Blizzard is already overdoing it, going as far as punishing a professional player for posting a meme on Twitter or muting people for "toxicity" and then punishing them again for lack of communication. For me, this isn't a problem to be solved on such a high level. After all, a mute function exists already and can be applied to anyone and the best thing is that it's a power within the hands of a player.
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  The problem is plenty of people wont mute, and toxicity is majorly contagious, so you get reverberations from the inital toxic incident going on pretty much ad infinitum.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    It's a game that kinda requires communication and coordination with your teammates. Muting isn't an option. That, and blaming someone for not muting is blaming the victim, rather than blaming the other person for being toxic in the first place.
- crysin 9y ago
  Part of the thing with Blizzard is they have the Overwatch League which they're trying really hard to legitimize as a true spectator sport. I don't know the specific person you're referencing in your post but there are players like xQc who have been banned as they're official league members who have agreements about their public behavior and repercussions if they break those. Blizzard does go pretty hard on the ban hammer in Overwatch overall, but most of the news worthy bans have been about Overwatch League players, who have a bit more of intimate relation with Blizzard than regular professional gamers.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    People say they go heavy now, but when Overwatch came out, they didn't really do anything, and it was a pretty toxic cesspool. From what I've heard, most people are happy that they've started to clean it up.
ABCLAW 9y ago
Developers are very quick to level the finger at players for the emergent behavior that their game systems create. Frustrating game experiences where players feel like they've had no agency in their loss lead to people being upset, which leads to people venting, which leads to people avoiding communication unless they vent. Most games that have this cycle start off fairly pleasant, and become increasingly angry places over time. I'd be exceptionally surprised if this initiative actually deals with the core issues of frustration and poor skill conveyance rather than improved methods of having people suppress their anger while playing.
piahoo 9y ago
Toxic communities is the strongest reason why I am not playing online games at all.
- mattbeckman 9y ago
  I miss the days when I used to play DotA/LoL etc., but I don't miss the toxicity.
mehlmao 9y ago
I miss games that allowed players to host their own servers. Players could find a server with a community they like and play there. Ultra-competitive players, people who wanted to mess around on weird custom maps, and people who didn't want to see or hear any swearing could all find a server that fit them and enjoy playing. In the past 10 years or so new games have mostly stopped including this, in favor of matchmaking systems. I guess having a single, official server makes easier to enforce "progression" systems and sell microtransactions. I'd also suspect the the disappearance of community servers has to do with the rise of online multiplayer on consoles, which never really had that as an option.
- 089723645897236 9y ago
  This to me shows the biggest problem with games. They aren't made by gamers anymore. It's Yet Another Media Outlet so it's been cash cowed to death. Split screen is gone too. It used to be mandatory in the 1990s-2000s for FPS, now your lucky if a current gen title has split screen at all. This ruins one of the primary fun things to do with a game which is couch play. Both of these things make it harder to microtransact and make games RPG like, so I get it. But I hate it really. The games are worse.
  - crysin 9y ago
    While not the sole or even probably a significant reason for the decline in split screen; I think split-screen has really suffered because of the need for consoles to be both somewhat affordable but also not terribly behind in terms of horsepower of what PCs can do at the time of the console's release. Depending on the game, the split screen can double the load on the cpu and gpu, and with consoles the way they are now their fps would plummet. A lot of games still are locked in at 30, some 60, which by most PC gamer's standards is already horribly behind. Now of days the vocal crowd of PC gamers say the only way to game is by playing games on 144hz monitors. While I would love to see the return of split screen, I don't think it will with the push to have games be on every platform now and run decently on all those platforms as well.
  - jstarfish 9y ago
    Nintendo seems to be the only brand left that understands the concept of "party" games. You can do 4p split-screen in Mario Kart, and you can do wireless ad-hoc in Splatoon (but this does require multiple consoles). Kirby Star Allies is also 4p same-screen.
TACIXAT 9y ago
I think a large problem is people often attribute their loss to their team's lack of skill rather than the excellent performance of the other team. Sometimes you get stomped. Sometimes you're playing against a really cohesive group or against some outstanding individuals. If people complemented more often than they criticized games would feel amazing to play. I have no clue how to change that besides slowly calling it out as you see it. Edit: The only thing that makes me sad about these changes is you can't mess around any more. It is sometimes fun to grief. It's fun to learn new characters or play shitty ones. Everyone is so hyper competitive now and if you don't look like you're giving 1000% effort and getting mad at your failures you're called toxic. It's a game though, have fun, mess with your team a little.
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AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
Reading all this controversy over poor behavior really surprised me. I have played online games on and off in a highly casual fashion for about two decades now - the quake series, counter-strike since the beta days, starcraft 1/2, warcraft 3, etc. - and I have always seen these antics as mostly miniscule and harmless. Someone writes hateful/immature messages in the chat? Ignore them. Someone's audio-spamming the voice chat with their stupid music? Mute them. I mute voice chats by default these days because I am not interested in hearing other peoples' voices when I'm immersed in a game. I rarely use the chat, often removing it from my HUD altogether. It's a distraction and I think it gets in the way of the gameplay. Are we so easily offended that we'd rather be overly-sensitive towards the immaturity of others? Do we all need to remember the sticks and stones rhyme our parents taught us? Aren't we better off by learning how to be unbothered by this stuff?
- woweeeee 9y ago
  Helicopter parents don't teach kids about sticks and stones anymore. Instead, they stomp each other to death for minor slights at pee wee hockey. [0] [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hockey-dad-found-guilty/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hockey-dad-found-guilty/
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  "and I have always seen these antics as mostly miniscule and harmless." Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother others. I've talked to gay people who play games, and they want to do so as an escape from the world, like everyone else. But it's really hard for that to happen when they constantly have these slurs hurled at them just like they do in real life. "Are we so easily offended " Why do you find it acceptable to blame the targets of this, instead of blaming those that are hurling the toxicity. "Do we all need to remember the sticks and stones rhyme our parents taught us?" You mean the one that has never, ever been true? "Aren't we better off by learning how to be unbothered by this stuff?" Again, why do you seem to want to encourage toxic people to be toxic?
- mto 9y ago
  Well, I usually don't care for some time. But if you play a lot and you see this crap every evening for hours... it just starts to dampen the mood. For me at least. I can not ignore the chat, from time to time there's useful stuff in there. Actually when I was a teen it didn't bother me at all. I so played counterstrike when it was a HL mod, Ultima Online when killing, cleanlooting, horsekilling, resskilling, notokilling, blocking and cleanlooting, house raids etc were still the norm. Didn't bother me. Actually the older I get the more I don't have the nerves anymore for all this crap.
swarnie_ 9y ago
Maybe i'm too old for the communities now. I gave up playing Arena games due to the toxic communities and now stick to arranged teams in Rocket League. A far more enjoyable experience even if i do meet a shockingly large number of my moms sexual partners.

77 points by thg 9y ago

Is this news for hackers

iooi 9y ago

I would love to be optimistic about this, but I don't think the solution to this is going to be "creating a consistent set of standards and rules across multiple multinational companies". In my opinion, some of these games are bound to create toxic situations when playing with randoms. Take a game like League, where a single player that's underperforming can cause the entire team to lose. This dynamic is core to the game, and it's the root cause of toxicity. Compare that to a game like Counter Strike, where an underperformer might not drag their team down that much, and there is an option to kick the person from the team. The game is still winnable -- it will be harder, but it would not be impossible like in League. Also, surprised not to see Valve in this list. Dota 2 and Counter Strike are still pretty big titles, even if they haven't made a game in a while.

allthenews 9y ago

I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists dictating their versions morality to me. I'll bet this will turn into the usual identity politics nightmare that ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority. If this were such a massive problem, millions of people wouldn't be spending billions of dollars and hundreds millions of man hours playing these games. This is about politics, not gaming experience.

sergiotapia 9y ago
I hope for everyones sake that this is about gaming experience, and not politics. But eh who knows, you're most likely right.
- pjc50 9y ago
  If people were able to keep their racial hatred and sexual slurs out of gaming, then it might be able to avoid politics.
  - dwringer 9y ago
    People kill each other mercilessly in games all the time; that doesn't happen too much, at least overtly, in most countries' political systems.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      The death is fake, the racism isn't.
      - dwringer 9y ago
        In the instances which are the subject of this article, I am sure you're correct. My point is that in-game behavior can be decoupled from behavior in the real world. I've seen in-game bigotry between factions in MMO's, and while I'm sure many of these people are also prone to such behavior in real life, others are role-playing; and although the behavior may be considered toxic, it may seem "fake" to the participants (and some politicians have argued in the past that "fake" murders in video games are also toxic).
        dbt00 9y ago
        I've come around to the idea that role playing racism/sexism in gaming is just a dodge. It's the "just a prank bro"/"can't you take a joke?" of online shitlording. And the vast majority of the stuff that goes down in these games doesn't even fall under obvious role playing -- it's just abuse.
        deleted 9y ago
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        9y ago
Mononokay 9y ago
> I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists forcing their versions morality onto me. Unless you're using your own servers for the game and they're still doing this, they aren't really forcing you to do anything. They're their servers, so they go by their rules. If you don't like it, you can just, y'know, not play the game.
- allthenews 9y ago
  I was going to agree that forcing was a less than ideal word choice, hence my edit, but it occurs to me that we've invested time and money into these games, only to have rules potentially changed on the whim of developers. They're not exactly going to issue refunds to suddenly unhappy players. Moreover, when these developers have access to the minds of hundreds of millions of people, including children, there is a degree of cultural forcing involved. These developers' ideas of right and wrong are potentially influencing society, and this is something that non gamers have little control over. At the very least, journalists have a responsibility to recognize that toxicity is not universal. One could argue that there is potential for priming young people toward obscenity laws and nanny statism, when they are conditioned to look toward authority for resolution of all problems. Farfetched, perhaps, but I personally believe that people need to learn to deal with such problems on their own, because external solutions are not always available or enforceable. This could easily have unforseen consequences.
scrollaway 9y ago
> I'd really rather not have video game designers and video game journalists forcing their versions morality onto me. You know what, I would. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want these same people regulating speech or whatever. But I do want them regulating their own userbases. I do want moderators on HN enforcing the HN guidelines, just like I want Blizzard to enforce the "Blizzard guidelines" in their games, whatever they may be. And honestly, the fact you think this "ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority" tells me you're part of the problem; you're probably often toxic to other players (even if you don't notice it), get your account muted/locked out/whatever, and then think that you did nothing wrong and everyone's in the same boat as you. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen this. People who think their behaviour is OK, who think they're not making the experience worse for other players. Then they wonder why they got banned. They go on the game's forums, subreddit, etc and complain "[studio] is banning people randomly!". And then some fed up dev from the studio pulls up chat logs and reveals some disgusting behaviour. > If this were such a massive problem, millions of people wouldn't be spending billions of dollars and hundreds millions of man hours playing these games. Thousands of companies are spending millions of dollars fighting that problem because it's affecting their players' experience, which ultimately affects players' willingness to buy and play the studio's games. Once again, that you think they'd willingly cater to a "tiny fraction" of their base, is absurd and gives a glimpse of your true nature.
- allthenews 9y ago
  >And honestly, the fact you think this "ultimately caters to a tiny fraction of gamers while worsening the experience for the majority" tells me you're part of the problem; you're probably often toxic to other players (even if you don't notice it), get your account muted/locked out/whatever, and then think that you did nothing wrong and everyone's in the same boat as you. Sorry for having the wrong opinion, but personal attacks are uncalled for. Ironic. So, to illustrate my point, would you prefer that heavy handed mods step in to censor you according to their definition of toxicity, or would you rather have the freedom to continue this discussion to possibly reach some resolution? I prefer to put faith in peoples' ability to resolve conflict without vague rules regarding inconsistent notions of toxicity, especially in the context of gaming, where I can leave and join another game more or less any time.
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dandersh 9y ago
Every time someone says "this is about politics" or "they should leave politics out of it" what they mean is the politics they don't agree with. Same applies to the use of "identity politics".
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crstinin 9y ago
Heads up buddy. I just logged in because I wanted to thank you for your opinion. You're 100% spot on. Don't get discouraged by the downvotes.
david-cako 9y ago
Obviously unpopular opinion, but the reason I enjoy online games is the wild-west attitude. CS:GO, Dota, League, etc all are very exciting to me because the point of the game is engineering your team mates, learning who is going to be obnoxious, shit talking with them, etc. Every once in a while games will be 100% ruined by someone, but I find it's very rare. Cost of playing the game, and it happens equally as often on the other team no doubt (I'd argue more, because my entire focus is on team cohesion). I really don't understand why people think it's okay to push a perfectly sanitary online gaming atmosphere. To me the whole point is that it's NOT sanitary.
- dbt00 9y ago
  Here's the thing. How much that toxic shit bothers you is a function of multiple things, but ultimately it's a bell curve. Some people are going to fall to the far left and think it's great, some people are going to fall to the far right and be unwilling or unable to engage with even the slightest amount of shit. You're at the median of your own experience, but what if you're near the far left of the bell curve across all players?
  - LyndsySimon 9y ago
    > what if you're near the far left of the bell curve across all players? I probably am - I honestly enjoy the trash-talking, even when it grossly violates cultural norms. I feel like it's a part of the "gamer culture" that I enjoy. I also get that there are (probably a lot) of people that don't want it. I just hope that there will continue to be a place for people who don't want to be subject to the censorship.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  To be honest, I really don't understand why it's acceptable to constantly spew racial or sexual slurs at other people. I also don't understand why it's acceptable to throw a ranked match because you believe someone else did something wrong. I don't want either of those to happen. When they do, it ruins the fun for me. After a while, I will stop playing. Plenty of others agree with me, which is why these companies are taking this seriously. They don't want people to stop playing.
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always_good 9y ago
I used to think the same when I started a forum. But after 10 years, I can say with confidence that you're wrong and won't create the ecosystem that you want. For example, by allowing toxicity to be rampant, you're really just catering to a tiny fraction of people, the toxic people. The opposite of what you think. If you want to play with quality, respectful players, you'll need to put in the elbow grease to create that ecosystem. Compare the average HN comment (moderated) to the average /r/programming comment (unmoderated). I don't see a lot of "identity politics" going on around the moderation here as you seem to suggest must coexist with such moderation.
s73v3r_ 9y ago
You're already accepting HN dictating their version of morality to you.

WA 9y ago

Man, I wouldn't want to be a community manager in those games. Trash-talking is one thing – and I'm quite quick with the mute-button (and usually let them know), but something that is incredibly hard to spot/punish is behavior in competitive games. Once you reach a certain skill level, a single guy on the team makes or breaks the entire match. With League of Legends, the problem is that a match lasts at least 20 minutes (not sure if this is still the case) until someone can surrender. A while back, I then played Heroes of the Storm, where most matches aren't longer than 20 minutes. Nowadays, I played a lot of Rocket League, where each match is 5 minutes (or 7 at most, depending on the amount of "goal cams"). But still, they can feel a bit like an eternity, if your mate decides that "you're a fucking noob, because you missed the ball 10 seconds into the game and we certainly can't win in the next 4:50 minutes" and just plays like an idiot. Sure, you can report those players, but ultimately, someone has to review the games and I suspect this is quite impossible to achieve. So, what's the solution? I don't know. Maybe the solution is on an individual level – stop playing "for the win", but try to enjoy the ingame moments (like "I hit the ball mid-air" or "I achieved a pentakill"). Or only play with friends on your team and mute the other team. After all, in most competitive games, you achieve about 50% win rate anyways, once you reach a certain mid-range skill level and don't play with your friends, because the match making algorithms will sometimes give you good team mates and other times bad, or toxic, ones.

staffordrj 9y ago
> Sure, you can report those players, but ultimately, someone has to review the games and I suspect this is quite impossible to achieve. They don't have to review the games if one account has many reports of "Unsportsmanlike conduct".
- purple-again 9y ago
  Tried and failed. You just reinvented the downvote button.
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  Then people who had a bad game get reported and banned.

scrollaway 9y ago

I'm cautiously optimistic on this. I don't know what they can actually do, but I'll take anything at this point. Toxicity really ruins the gaming experience. Game devs and designers nowadays go out of their way to prevent people from being assholes to each other in games, but it still happens. Even games such as Hearthstone or Clash Royale, that are entirely limited to emotes, still develop a language around telling the opponent "fuck you". I'd argue that in games, it's worse than around the web. If someone's being a jerk to me on HN, Facebook, Twitter etc I can just choose to ignore them, block them, not mind them, etc. But in games you are forced to interact, either as co-op or opponent. Being matched up with respectful people (either as teammate or opponent) is one of the most rewarding things in gaming. And being matched up with assholes is one of the worst experiences. So every match you roll the dice on whether you're going to feel great or feel like shit by the end of the game, and it usually has nothing to do with winning or losing. I find that whenever I start truly enjoying a game, regularly being paired up with toxic people impacts the experience to the point of quitting. Both Overwatch and Rocket League, two delightful, fantastic and rewarding games, were completely ruined for me because of that.

resonanttoe 9y ago
I think you've hit on the core of the problem but the solution is always skated around. "But in games you are forced to interact, either as co-op or opponent." The typical response here is to give players a greater degree of blocking and selection, which I find to be particularly unappealling as it becomes a case of "whack-a-mole". Similarly muting toxic players works the same way, you have to expose yourself to it to find out if you want it blocked. For me, I'd opt for an option that is muting/deafening myself. Allow me to say I don't want to interact or be acted upon and have that apply globally. There is never an instance where I'd turn this back on and have these set throughout the duration of the game (I.E, I can't turn it back on, just to emote my fuck you and block the opponent from replying.) My ideal scenario in multiplayer games is to have the skill and randomness of human players without any of their personality. Games that do this reasonably well are games like PUBG, where I can mute the mic and there is no text chat. Similarly the game is frantic enough that taking the 20 seconds to emote your way to some obnoxious point backfires more routinely than not. (However I'm not a fan of the fact they have just introduced emotes... it bodes not well.) I think because of this there is a class of "not-multiplayer" online game players who want all the game play aspects that multiplayer has to offer, but none of the interactions. I'd sacrifice the respectful people matching rewards (and you're right, it's awesome when that happens) if it meant getting rid of dickheads. But that is up to the individual.

sergiotapia 9y ago

Noble goals, I hope they don't lose their way and try to overextend their influence by silencing non-"progressive" behavior or "wrongthink". I hope everybody wins. It seems like they're going to heavily censor popular streamers: "This is just all reality now. So streamers are ambassadors of culture bigger than just League of Legends or whichever game. They’re ambassadors of online life."

NTripleOne 9y ago
>I hope they don't lose their way and try to overextend their influence by silencing non-"progressive" behavior or "wrongthink" Blizzard already do.

danharaj 9y ago

Maybe I'll be able to play Overwatch again! I aged out of that environment so suddenly after I took a year long break from gaming, but to be honest it was never good for me to begin with.

justicezyx 9y ago

I thought China is the only one want to regulate their people's everyday behaviors... It turns out the whole idea of freedom is nothing but a degree of how alone one can live. The more alone the more free, but that isn't what freedom stands for...

wnevets 9y ago
I wish people would stop comparing policies of governments to the policies of a private company's online community.
- verroq 9y ago
  Until they grow to become facebook size.
- fein 9y ago
  Why? The management of an online community is just a pocket sized version of a full blown government. There's no reason to not make a comparison due to lolbertarian rationales.
  - wnevets 9y ago
    It's a lot harder to quit the NK government than it is to quit LoL
    - fein 9y ago
      Sure, but that's not what we're looking at. The behaviors of community moderation are comparable to those of a government.
      - wnevets 9y ago
        Perhaps but the consequences of breaking the rules are nowhere near as devastating. It trivializes the human rights abuses by those governments by putting them in the same category as a video game chat

muse900 9y ago

Where is Valve... cs:go is the most toxic game i've ever played... and its one of those games which has no support team behind it, once you report something noone from the company gets to see your report... The amount of racist names etc that goes unpunished in there is unbelievable.

rhcom2 9y ago
Also a game where voice chat is required and muting someone means you'll have no information from that person.
jelly 9y ago
Valve have traditionally taken a hands-off approach to the communities surrounding its games; I would be surprised to see their name among the list and I like how they do things currently. Though I have experienced toxicity in CS:GO, it has been no worse than in other competitive games.
- fenwick67 9y ago
  It was better when people hosting their own servers was the focus (CS:S and CS1.6). This way you could find a nice community, with good moderators and rules that you liked, and settle in. Nowadays you are just thrown in a blender with every other player.
  - jelly 9y ago
    That's exactly my feeling as well, a less-friendly player base is one of the unintended consequences of matchmaking
dvlsg 9y ago
Your name in cs:go is always your steam name. Shouldn't even need a specific support team for a game to find those (if anything, that makes it worse, though).
- muse900 9y ago

dandersh 9y ago

Yea I don't see this working. For starters the problem isn't the games, or the enforcement mechanisms, it's the gamers. There are plenty of other competitive activities with "randoms" that do not result in this type of behavior. Another issue is that there will be those that get punished/removed that will play the victim and attribute it to politics, etc. You can see this beginning already in some of the comments in this thread about "dictating morality" and "silencing non-progressive behavior."

empath75 9y ago
Bad players drive out good players. If you had a game that had zero tolerance for shitty behavior and an enforced code of conduct, you’d have a better community.
- dandersh 9y ago
  Sure. As long as you: Throughly and clearly defined shitty behavior that had wide agreement. Had an effective form of zero tolerance that was both deterrent and enforcement. Had a clear code of conduct that was neutral to all. Correctly identified players and prevented false positives. Was willing to remove anyone, no matter how popular they were. Was willing to remove anyone, no matter how profitable they were. You know what else would make for a better community? Better citizens.

ManlyBread 9y ago

From what I heard Blizzard is already overdoing it, going as far as punishing a professional player for posting a meme on Twitter or muting people for "toxicity" and then punishing them again for lack of communication. For me, this isn't a problem to be solved on such a high level. After all, a mute function exists already and can be applied to anyone and the best thing is that it's a power within the hands of a player.

throwaway2048 9y ago
The problem is plenty of people wont mute, and toxicity is majorly contagious, so you get reverberations from the inital toxic incident going on pretty much ad infinitum.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  It's a game that kinda requires communication and coordination with your teammates. Muting isn't an option. That, and blaming someone for not muting is blaming the victim, rather than blaming the other person for being toxic in the first place.
crysin 9y ago
Part of the thing with Blizzard is they have the Overwatch League which they're trying really hard to legitimize as a true spectator sport. I don't know the specific person you're referencing in your post but there are players like xQc who have been banned as they're official league members who have agreements about their public behavior and repercussions if they break those. Blizzard does go pretty hard on the ban hammer in Overwatch overall, but most of the news worthy bans have been about Overwatch League players, who have a bit more of intimate relation with Blizzard than regular professional gamers.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  People say they go heavy now, but when Overwatch came out, they didn't really do anything, and it was a pretty toxic cesspool. From what I've heard, most people are happy that they've started to clean it up.

ABCLAW 9y ago

Developers are very quick to level the finger at players for the emergent behavior that their game systems create. Frustrating game experiences where players feel like they've had no agency in their loss lead to people being upset, which leads to people venting, which leads to people avoiding communication unless they vent. Most games that have this cycle start off fairly pleasant, and become increasingly angry places over time. I'd be exceptionally surprised if this initiative actually deals with the core issues of frustration and poor skill conveyance rather than improved methods of having people suppress their anger while playing.

piahoo 9y ago

Toxic communities is the strongest reason why I am not playing online games at all.

mattbeckman 9y ago
I miss the days when I used to play DotA/LoL etc., but I don't miss the toxicity.

mehlmao 9y ago

I miss games that allowed players to host their own servers. Players could find a server with a community they like and play there. Ultra-competitive players, people who wanted to mess around on weird custom maps, and people who didn't want to see or hear any swearing could all find a server that fit them and enjoy playing. In the past 10 years or so new games have mostly stopped including this, in favor of matchmaking systems. I guess having a single, official server makes easier to enforce "progression" systems and sell microtransactions. I'd also suspect the the disappearance of community servers has to do with the rise of online multiplayer on consoles, which never really had that as an option.

089723645897236 9y ago
This to me shows the biggest problem with games. They aren't made by gamers anymore. It's Yet Another Media Outlet so it's been cash cowed to death. Split screen is gone too. It used to be mandatory in the 1990s-2000s for FPS, now your lucky if a current gen title has split screen at all. This ruins one of the primary fun things to do with a game which is couch play. Both of these things make it harder to microtransact and make games RPG like, so I get it. But I hate it really. The games are worse.
- crysin 9y ago
  While not the sole or even probably a significant reason for the decline in split screen; I think split-screen has really suffered because of the need for consoles to be both somewhat affordable but also not terribly behind in terms of horsepower of what PCs can do at the time of the console's release. Depending on the game, the split screen can double the load on the cpu and gpu, and with consoles the way they are now their fps would plummet. A lot of games still are locked in at 30, some 60, which by most PC gamer's standards is already horribly behind. Now of days the vocal crowd of PC gamers say the only way to game is by playing games on 144hz monitors. While I would love to see the return of split screen, I don't think it will with the push to have games be on every platform now and run decently on all those platforms as well.
- jstarfish 9y ago
  Nintendo seems to be the only brand left that understands the concept of "party" games. You can do 4p split-screen in Mario Kart, and you can do wireless ad-hoc in Splatoon (but this does require multiple consoles). Kirby Star Allies is also 4p same-screen.

TACIXAT 9y ago

I think a large problem is people often attribute their loss to their team's lack of skill rather than the excellent performance of the other team. Sometimes you get stomped. Sometimes you're playing against a really cohesive group or against some outstanding individuals. If people complemented more often than they criticized games would feel amazing to play. I have no clue how to change that besides slowly calling it out as you see it. Edit: The only thing that makes me sad about these changes is you can't mess around any more. It is sometimes fun to grief. It's fun to learn new characters or play shitty ones. Everyone is so hyper competitive now and if you don't look like you're giving 1000% effort and getting mad at your failures you're called toxic. It's a game though, have fun, mess with your team a little.

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AndrewUnmuted 9y ago

Reading all this controversy over poor behavior really surprised me. I have played online games on and off in a highly casual fashion for about two decades now - the quake series, counter-strike since the beta days, starcraft 1/2, warcraft 3, etc. - and I have always seen these antics as mostly miniscule and harmless. Someone writes hateful/immature messages in the chat? Ignore them. Someone's audio-spamming the voice chat with their stupid music? Mute them. I mute voice chats by default these days because I am not interested in hearing other peoples' voices when I'm immersed in a game. I rarely use the chat, often removing it from my HUD altogether. It's a distraction and I think it gets in the way of the gameplay. Are we so easily offended that we'd rather be overly-sensitive towards the immaturity of others? Do we all need to remember the sticks and stones rhyme our parents taught us? Aren't we better off by learning how to be unbothered by this stuff?

woweeeee 9y ago
Helicopter parents don't teach kids about sticks and stones anymore. Instead, they stomp each other to death for minor slights at pee wee hockey. [0] [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hockey-dad-found-guilty/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hockey-dad-found-guilty/
s73v3r_ 9y ago
"and I have always seen these antics as mostly miniscule and harmless." Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother others. I've talked to gay people who play games, and they want to do so as an escape from the world, like everyone else. But it's really hard for that to happen when they constantly have these slurs hurled at them just like they do in real life. "Are we so easily offended " Why do you find it acceptable to blame the targets of this, instead of blaming those that are hurling the toxicity. "Do we all need to remember the sticks and stones rhyme our parents taught us?" You mean the one that has never, ever been true? "Aren't we better off by learning how to be unbothered by this stuff?" Again, why do you seem to want to encourage toxic people to be toxic?
mto 9y ago
Well, I usually don't care for some time. But if you play a lot and you see this crap every evening for hours... it just starts to dampen the mood. For me at least. I can not ignore the chat, from time to time there's useful stuff in there. Actually when I was a teen it didn't bother me at all. I so played counterstrike when it was a HL mod, Ultima Online when killing, cleanlooting, horsekilling, resskilling, notokilling, blocking and cleanlooting, house raids etc were still the norm. Didn't bother me. Actually the older I get the more I don't have the nerves anymore for all this crap.

swarnie_ 9y ago

Maybe i'm too old for the communities now. I gave up playing Arena games due to the toxic communities and now stick to arranged teams in Rocket League. A far more enjoyable experience even if i do meet a shockingly large number of my moms sexual partners.