6 ms·

What's so infuriating in France is that farmers are basically sacred: nothing can be said, let alone done, to curb their behavior. They benefit from all kinds

by bambax 9y ago

What's so infuriating in France is that farmers are basically sacred: nothing can be said, let alone done, to curb their behavior. They benefit from all kinds of advantages: they don't pay taxes on fuel and don't pay for water (water in France is very expensive for everyone else except farmers), have all kinds of special conditions and fiscal deductions, and that's in addition to the direct payments they get from the CAP (around 12 billion Euros / year). All of this for less than 2% of French GDP and the active destruction of the ecosystem, deforestation and pollution on a huge scale. In the French countryside all one can see are immense fields of corn and wheat, watered all the time (it's esp. infuriating to witness watering in the summer, at noon). The French countryside isn't charming, it's horrible, it looks like a grand experiment from an evil dictator. Yet politicians from absolutely all parties from the extreme left to the extreme right and including everything in-between, fall over themselves to give more to farmers. Every single national politician attends the "Salon de l'Agriculture" held in Paris in February, etc. etc. Why is there no one to say, this has gone too far; why can't we hold those people accountable for what they have done and what they are doing, I don't understand.

ealhad 9y ago
If farmers are “sacred”, how do you explain their horrible suicide rate? There are a lot of problems with the french agro-food industry; but I wouldn't blame farmers alone.
- vincentperes 9y ago
  "horrible" is going a bit too far? It is 20% higher than average. http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-suicident-plus-que-les-autres-06-10-2016-2074089_40.php http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-su...
  - ealhad 9y ago
    Considering we are talking about people killing themselves, I don’t think so.
    - jwandborg 9y ago
      Yes any suicide rate would be horrible. A suicide rate 20% higher than another suicide rate is 20% more horrible, which is not horribly more horrible unless we've diluted the meaning of horrible which would mean the we don't think the suicide rate is too bad.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    Suicide is normally a preventable death, and suicide is a leading cause of death. So if a population has 20% higher than average rate of death by suicide that's a pretty big deal.
- bambax 9y ago
  > If farmers are “sacred”, how do you explain their horrible suicide rate? There's no contradiction between the two? The suicide rate of farmers is a little above average, probably because, in spite of all the subsidies and advantages, they still have a very hard time making a living. But farmers are still sacred in the sense that it's impossible to suggest that maybe the current state of affairs is suboptimal, or to have a serious public conversation about that policy.
- ajmurmann 9y ago
  Question from someone who knows nothing about this and is trying to understand: how much of agriculture in France is dominated by big agriculture? Is it possible that small farmers are having a hard time while economics of scale and subsidies work well for big ag?
  - hrktb 9y ago
    Not knowing that much either, but I was more under the inpression that farmers working small had a better chance to live decently than the ones working on big contracts. My perspective is how supermaket chains establish almost direct relations with producers and waive their weigh around to get better and better deals as time goes. Basically a variant of cuting the middle layers to eliminate bargaining power.
    - ealhad 9y ago
      Yup. And that is how farmers find themselves with huge debts, because they are strongly advised by companies to buy big machines.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Is that measured in suicide attempts, or successful suicides? Because if it's successful suicides it might just be that the number of attempts is the same, but they have more effective methods of killing themselves, like pesticides: https://80000hours.org/2018/03/leah-utyasheva-pesticide-suicide-prevention/ https://80000hours.org/2018/03/leah-utyasheva-pesticide-suic... (I know Sri Lanka isn't France, and we cannot assume anything about French pesticide laws. I'm just offering another possibility)
  - ealhad 9y ago
    That’s a good question, and an interesting point. (though I think they mostly hang themselves)
- mywacaday 9y ago
  Don't know about France but a definite problem in Ireland is that farming is 7 days a week 365 days a year job for many farmers and for those with a small holding making a living can be difficult. Add to the closing of rural pubs/post offices/shops social isolation is a real problem.
walterstucco 9y ago
As much as I dislike France, I think you're overreacting.
Outpox 9y ago
My uncle has been a farmer for quite a while and his children took on the farm after he "retired" (you never really retire when you're a farmer). I've worked with them and I've never seen them water the crops. They don't even own the tools to do so and yet they're growing cereals (and a hundred cows) on 300 acres. They live in the east of France where I've never seen crops being watered. Not to say that you're wrong but I can't confirm your statement given my experience with farmers.
- Retric 9y ago
  300 acres is a tiny farm especially for a mix of cereals and cows. It's only going to profitable with massive subsidies and as doing a better job is probably not that important vs. collecting government handouts. I don't know how most of France operates, but small operations are generally a vast waste of resources.
  - Outpox 9y ago
    My bad I got my math wrong, it's 330 hectares which equals roughly 815 acres.
ZuckZack 9y ago
Same in Bavaria.
hycaria 9y ago
Could say the exact same about consumers.
adrianN 9y ago
The alternative seems to be importing a lot of food that has been grown in countries that might care even less about the environment.
- adventured 9y ago
  France has commonly been one of the five largest agriculture exporters for the last several decades. As recently as 1995 they were the world's #2 agriculture exporter after the US (I believe they're currently #6 or #7 globally, having lost ground the last few years). As in the case with California exporting vast quantities of its water to Asia in the form of things like Almonds - at a steep resource cost for a very modest financial gain - France could clearly afford to reduce its agriculture exports at minimum cost to its overall economy and reduce the strain on its natural resources.
  - ivanhoe 9y ago
    The part that you don't see in those numbers is that "affording to reduce exports" really means that many people would have to drastically change the life style their families had for centuries. It's not easy for farm owners who've had that land for generations to just turn the switch and start living of something else. In Europe workforce has a lot more of inertia than in US or Canada, people are far less used to relocating and re-skilling in the search for jobs...
- briandear 9y ago
  No, the alternative is importing food from countries who have a competitive advantage in agriculture, such as the United States — thus improving the economic condition of the 98% of French who aren’t farmers. Also, your theory holds no water: France still manages to import vast numbers of cheap Chinese consumer goods which are often produced under extraordinary bad environmental conditions. So if the idea that France is saving the environment by farming more, then it would follow that they’d be making more consumer goods for similar reasons. But they aren’t.
  - lumberjack 9y ago
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Why is there no one to say, this has gone too far; why can't we hold those people accountable for what they have done and what they are doing, I don't understand. Probably because they're growing food, which most people consider necessary. Besides, before getting to the farmers and the destruction they have wrought on to the environment, there is plenty of scope to look at the behaviour of, oh, I don't know - the companies that sell the pesticide the farmers use, just off the top of my head? Not to mention other industries that cause much more harm to the environment than agriculture, which is, at the end of the day, something we literally can't live without.
- briandear 9y ago
  So you are essentially blaming peaticide companies for the pesticide use by farmers? That’s like blaming a murder on the bullet factory.
briandear 9y ago
I live in the Luberon on a hectare of land. But check this out— all real estate sales of land claimed to be agricultural land (such as mine,) must be approved by a farm association. So farmers can even control the buying and selling of my home that they don’t even own. If, for example, I wanted to buy up a bunch of agricultural land and turn it into a nature preserve, that sale could be blocked by a third party despite not having any ownership rights to the land in question. It’s a bit insane.
Dylanfm 9y ago
I've been hearing about some good things happening in France too (and many further afield). Bec Hellouin is a productive, healthy farm in Bretagne which follows permaculture principles. They've been taking part in studies to see how viable organic market gardening can be. Asking if 1/4 acre is enough to provide a job for 1 person (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8alcGWNyX8&t=7m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8alcGWNyX8&t=7m35s). Read more about them here https://www.fermedubec.com/english/ https://www.fermedubec.com/english/ and the studies are linked to from this page https://www.fermedubec.com/la-recherche/les-rapports-scientifiques/ https://www.fermedubec.com/la-recherche/les-rapports-scienti... (in english down the bottom). There are also some good farms practicing agroforestry, an example later in the video linked to above. The examples are such a small drop in the ocean, but from Sepp Holzer in Austria to Ridgedale in Sweden, momentum for restorative agriculture will grow. Hopefully swiftly, but that's also dependant on government policy.
baud147258 9y ago
> The French countryside isn't charming, it's horrible I don't know which countryside you've seen, but most of what I've seen is not ugly, with still a great number of forest and other non-ugly parts. Cultivated lands is half of the total surface. Also water is not expensive in France and is not used for agriculture in most parts of the country, where they get enough rain. Of course, I agree with you that seeing those ugly corn fields receiving water at 12h in summer is infuriating. The part of the GDP is 4.5%, not 2%.

by bambax 9y ago

ealhad 9y ago

If farmers are “sacred”, how do you explain their horrible suicide rate? There are a lot of problems with the french agro-food industry; but I wouldn't blame farmers alone.

vincentperes 9y ago
"horrible" is going a bit too far? It is 20% higher than average. http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-suicident-plus-que-les-autres-06-10-2016-2074089_40.php http://www.lepoint.fr/sante/en-france-les-agriculteurs-se-su...
- ealhad 9y ago
  Considering we are talking about people killing themselves, I don’t think so.
  - jwandborg 9y ago
    Yes any suicide rate would be horrible. A suicide rate 20% higher than another suicide rate is 20% more horrible, which is not horribly more horrible unless we've diluted the meaning of horrible which would mean the we don't think the suicide rate is too bad.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Suicide is normally a preventable death, and suicide is a leading cause of death. So if a population has 20% higher than average rate of death by suicide that's a pretty big deal.
bambax 9y ago
> If farmers are “sacred”, how do you explain their horrible suicide rate? There's no contradiction between the two? The suicide rate of farmers is a little above average, probably because, in spite of all the subsidies and advantages, they still have a very hard time making a living. But farmers are still sacred in the sense that it's impossible to suggest that maybe the current state of affairs is suboptimal, or to have a serious public conversation about that policy.
ajmurmann 9y ago
Question from someone who knows nothing about this and is trying to understand: how much of agriculture in France is dominated by big agriculture? Is it possible that small farmers are having a hard time while economics of scale and subsidies work well for big ag?
- hrktb 9y ago
  Not knowing that much either, but I was more under the inpression that farmers working small had a better chance to live decently than the ones working on big contracts. My perspective is how supermaket chains establish almost direct relations with producers and waive their weigh around to get better and better deals as time goes. Basically a variant of cuting the middle layers to eliminate bargaining power.
  - ealhad 9y ago
    Yup. And that is how farmers find themselves with huge debts, because they are strongly advised by companies to buy big machines.
vanderZwan 9y ago
Is that measured in suicide attempts, or successful suicides? Because if it's successful suicides it might just be that the number of attempts is the same, but they have more effective methods of killing themselves, like pesticides: https://80000hours.org/2018/03/leah-utyasheva-pesticide-suicide-prevention/ https://80000hours.org/2018/03/leah-utyasheva-pesticide-suic... (I know Sri Lanka isn't France, and we cannot assume anything about French pesticide laws. I'm just offering another possibility)
- ealhad 9y ago
  That’s a good question, and an interesting point. (though I think they mostly hang themselves)
mywacaday 9y ago
Don't know about France but a definite problem in Ireland is that farming is 7 days a week 365 days a year job for many farmers and for those with a small holding making a living can be difficult. Add to the closing of rural pubs/post offices/shops social isolation is a real problem.

walterstucco 9y ago

As much as I dislike France, I think you're overreacting.

Outpox 9y ago

My uncle has been a farmer for quite a while and his children took on the farm after he "retired" (you never really retire when you're a farmer). I've worked with them and I've never seen them water the crops. They don't even own the tools to do so and yet they're growing cereals (and a hundred cows) on 300 acres. They live in the east of France where I've never seen crops being watered. Not to say that you're wrong but I can't confirm your statement given my experience with farmers.

Retric 9y ago
300 acres is a tiny farm especially for a mix of cereals and cows. It's only going to profitable with massive subsidies and as doing a better job is probably not that important vs. collecting government handouts. I don't know how most of France operates, but small operations are generally a vast waste of resources.
- Outpox 9y ago
  My bad I got my math wrong, it's 330 hectares which equals roughly 815 acres.

ZuckZack 9y ago

Same in Bavaria.

hycaria 9y ago

Could say the exact same about consumers.

adrianN 9y ago

The alternative seems to be importing a lot of food that has been grown in countries that might care even less about the environment.

adventured 9y ago
France has commonly been one of the five largest agriculture exporters for the last several decades. As recently as 1995 they were the world's #2 agriculture exporter after the US (I believe they're currently #6 or #7 globally, having lost ground the last few years). As in the case with California exporting vast quantities of its water to Asia in the form of things like Almonds - at a steep resource cost for a very modest financial gain - France could clearly afford to reduce its agriculture exports at minimum cost to its overall economy and reduce the strain on its natural resources.
- ivanhoe 9y ago
  The part that you don't see in those numbers is that "affording to reduce exports" really means that many people would have to drastically change the life style their families had for centuries. It's not easy for farm owners who've had that land for generations to just turn the switch and start living of something else. In Europe workforce has a lot more of inertia than in US or Canada, people are far less used to relocating and re-skilling in the search for jobs...
briandear 9y ago
No, the alternative is importing food from countries who have a competitive advantage in agriculture, such as the United States — thus improving the economic condition of the 98% of French who aren’t farmers. Also, your theory holds no water: France still manages to import vast numbers of cheap Chinese consumer goods which are often produced under extraordinary bad environmental conditions. So if the idea that France is saving the environment by farming more, then it would follow that they’d be making more consumer goods for similar reasons. But they aren’t.
- lumberjack 9y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

>> Why is there no one to say, this has gone too far; why can't we hold those people accountable for what they have done and what they are doing, I don't understand. Probably because they're growing food, which most people consider necessary. Besides, before getting to the farmers and the destruction they have wrought on to the environment, there is plenty of scope to look at the behaviour of, oh, I don't know - the companies that sell the pesticide the farmers use, just off the top of my head? Not to mention other industries that cause much more harm to the environment than agriculture, which is, at the end of the day, something we literally can't live without.

briandear 9y ago
So you are essentially blaming peaticide companies for the pesticide use by farmers? That’s like blaming a murder on the bullet factory.

briandear 9y ago

I live in the Luberon on a hectare of land. But check this out— all real estate sales of land claimed to be agricultural land (such as mine,) must be approved by a farm association. So farmers can even control the buying and selling of my home that they don’t even own. If, for example, I wanted to buy up a bunch of agricultural land and turn it into a nature preserve, that sale could be blocked by a third party despite not having any ownership rights to the land in question. It’s a bit insane.

Dylanfm 9y ago

I've been hearing about some good things happening in France too (and many further afield). Bec Hellouin is a productive, healthy farm in Bretagne which follows permaculture principles. They've been taking part in studies to see how viable organic market gardening can be. Asking if 1/4 acre is enough to provide a job for 1 person (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8alcGWNyX8&t=7m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8alcGWNyX8&t=7m35s). Read more about them here https://www.fermedubec.com/english/ https://www.fermedubec.com/english/ and the studies are linked to from this page https://www.fermedubec.com/la-recherche/les-rapports-scientifiques/ https://www.fermedubec.com/la-recherche/les-rapports-scienti... (in english down the bottom). There are also some good farms practicing agroforestry, an example later in the video linked to above. The examples are such a small drop in the ocean, but from Sepp Holzer in Austria to Ridgedale in Sweden, momentum for restorative agriculture will grow. Hopefully swiftly, but that's also dependant on government policy.

baud147258 9y ago

> The French countryside isn't charming, it's horrible I don't know which countryside you've seen, but most of what I've seen is not ugly, with still a great number of forest and other non-ugly parts. Cultivated lands is half of the total surface. Also water is not expensive in France and is not used for agriculture in most parts of the country, where they get enough rain. Of course, I agree with you that seeing those ugly corn fields receiving water at 12h in summer is infuriating. The part of the GDP is 4.5%, not 2%.