6 ms·

Apple pretends to care about privacy as long as it is good for the bottom line.

collias 9y ago
Could you explain what you mean? I’m genuinely curious if Apple has taken an anti-privacy stance. From what I can tell, they’re the best tech giant for user privacy. They’ve fought the FBI in court to not put in a government backdoor to unlocking user’s devices. Lawyers ain’t cheap.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  We don't know what Apple does with their data. They might print it out and make paper airplanes with it. They might use it to test their backups. And yes, they even might sell it. Or, they may do nothing with it at all. We just don't know. I'm not accusing them of misusing our data, but I do know that they have, in the past, chosen to do something that looks like they are disregarding their user's privacy in order to make a buck (https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-keys-to-china-for-china-based-users/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-key...). And they can set up their systems in a way that ensures they aren't violating our privacy or trust, but they choose not to do that. That to me, is very suspicious. I do agree that they seem like the best tech giant for user privacy, but that is a super low bar. Just because they are "the best", doesn't mean they are good at it.
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Apple devices can be used without iCloud.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      Can it work without any connections to apple? It's not just iCloud.
      - grzm 9y ago
        If you want software updates, you can get those through your computer rather than connecting to Apple directly. I'm not sure what would be involved in opting out of Apple's iMessage system. Edit to add: looks like that's an option as well in the settings. (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569) Are you asking rhetorically? For someone who repeatedly, adamantly, and assuredly posts about Apple and security, I'd be surprised if you don't already know the answer to your question.
        CaptSpify 9y ago
        I mean most of the apps, like Maps, Email, GPS, etc. And I don't know the answer to that, because I haven't used an Apple product since the original iPhone. If I'm misunderstanding how they work, then, please, inform me as to what I'm missing. I'm very willing to admit I was mistaken if they don't work the way I think they do. I try to keep up with the basics of how they work, I have my friends show me things, etc. But I in no way want to paint myself as an Apple expert.
        grzm 9y ago
        Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio.
        CaptSpify 9y ago
        > Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. I don't have to be a mechanic to know when a car is broken, just like I don't have to know how all of Apple's software works to know that they don't actually value privacy. Please, prove me wrong. I'd love it if Apple actually put their money where their mouth is. Until then, I know enough about their stack to know that they don't build it in a way that ensures privacy. > You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. And? I can anticipate objections as to any argument. That doesn't change the validity of either side. I don't think I get what you mean by this. > It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Once those arguments become invalid, I'll stop. If I'm saying something that isn't true, please point it out. Until then, I'll will proudly correct the lie that "Apple cares about privacy". I'm sorry that the truth is tedious to you, but there's not much that I can do about that. > Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio. But they could build their systems so that I don't have to go through Apple to use their app, just in the same way that email works. They choose not to. My point is that, until they design their systems so that I can use all of the standard functionality without going through their servers, they aren't taking privacy seriously.
    - kungtotte 9y ago
      Yes, just like you can use a car without gas.
      - grzm 9y ago
        Not true. Even with the latest iOS 11, iCloud is opt-in, and not required. https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/do-you-have-to-use-icloud-services-when-you-upgrade-to-ios-11.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/d... Clearly, there are some features that rely on iCloud, but you can choose not to use those features and still have a functioning device.
      - walterbell 9y ago
        Incorrect. You can use apps which have other synchronization mechanisms, including competitors to iCloud. With "document provider" apps, you can use SSH as a transport mechanism for files.
soneil 9y ago
I still prefer that though. It seems quite clear to me. No-one cares about users, they care about customers. Apple care about their customers. Google care about their customers. Facebook care about their customers. I am an Apple customer. I am a Google user. I am a Facebook user. See the difference? So do they.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring that. I just don't like that they try to give the feeling of being "pro-privacy", when their actions speak otherwise. I find it very deceptive.
earenndil 9y ago
Sure. And as it is likely to continue to be good for their bottom line for the forseeable future, I continue to benefit from patronizing them. See what's happening here? It's a selfish economic system whereby we both benefit. I guess capitalism works sometimes, at least for (relatively) short periods of time. Who knew?
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  The problem is that you don't both benefit in the ways you think you are. Apple is pretending to be pro-privacy, but they actually aren't pro-privacy. You think you are getting a privacy-oriented device, but you are not. I would love it if Apple did build privacy oriented systems. I would be their biggest supporter, and I would spend mountains of money on their products. And I do think they would make good money from it from everyone. But until they do design their systems correctly, all we have evidence of is that they can make money by deceiving their users.
matwood 9y ago
> Apple pretends to care about privacy as long as it is good for the bottom line. I don't care why Apple's interests are aligned with mine, as long as they are. When it comes to corporations, dealing with one whose bottom line is aligned with my interest is exactly what I want. Also, Apple is not 'pretending' to care about privacy. While they have had some embarrassing bugs, they do put privacy as a high priority. Many speculate that Apple is behind in the assistant category because of privacy concerns.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  > I don't care why Apple's interests are aligned with mine, as long as they are. When it comes to corporations, dealing with one whose bottom line is aligned with my interest is exactly what I want. Agreed! I have no problem with that either, and I think it's great when it happens! > Also, Apple is not 'pretending' to care about privacy. While they have had some embarrassing bugs, they do put privacy as a high priority. Many speculate that Apple is behind in the assistant category because of privacy concerns. Just because you don't like the fact that they are pretending, doesn't make it untrue. I'm sure that to a certain degree they do care about privacy, but when push comes to shove, they choose money over privacy. They have the ability to design systems with privacy inherent in them, yet they choose not to.
weego 9y ago
If you want purity of intent in every transaction or contract you ever enter into then the world is going to be a very frustrating place.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  > If you want purity of intent in every transaction or contract you ever enter into then the world is going to be a very frustrating place. I do, and it is. I don't think I get what you mean. Just because a lot of groups choose to lie about their intentions means that it's OK that Apple does the same?
  - weego 9y ago
    But they aren't lying are they? "We care about your privacy" is not a lie just because they care out of necessary for their share price, it's just not the unreasonably ideal situation you want. You cannot reasonably expect everyone with the same goals to have perfectly aligned intent, and you certainly cannot expect a company of tens of thousands of people to all completely align their intent not only as a collective but also with you as an individual. If their goals shift, forced by their intent, you drop them. I can't see any other way to pragmatically get along or make progress in life.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      I'd strongly argue that my view isn't about being ideal, it's the minimum. Fact: We don't know what they do with our data Fact: They refuse to show us what they do with our data, even though they could Fact: They have taken actions that, while I obviously don't have direct evidence of this, looks extremely like they are handing over control of other people's data to someone else, who is known to be abusive with it Fact: They can design their system in a way that avoids all of this, yet they continually choose not to All of this points in one direction, and there's very little evidence pointing in the other direction. It seems pretty obvious to me that their pro-privacy standpoint is all just smoke and mirrors. I'm sure they care to some extent, but they clearly value money over their user's privacy. If I say that I care about my health, but I eat terrible quality foods, don't exercise, and ignore people who try to encourage me to be healthier, then it it obvious that I don't care about my health, despite what I say.

Could you explain what you mean? I’m genuinely curious if Apple has taken an anti-privacy stance. From what I can tell, they’re the best tech giant for user privacy. They’ve fought the FBI in court to not put in a government backdoor to unlocking user’s devices. Lawyers ain’t cheap.

CaptSpify 9y ago
We don't know what Apple does with their data. They might print it out and make paper airplanes with it. They might use it to test their backups. And yes, they even might sell it. Or, they may do nothing with it at all. We just don't know. I'm not accusing them of misusing our data, but I do know that they have, in the past, chosen to do something that looks like they are disregarding their user's privacy in order to make a buck (https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-keys-to-china-for-china-based-users/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-key...). And they can set up their systems in a way that ensures they aren't violating our privacy or trust, but they choose not to do that. That to me, is very suspicious. I do agree that they seem like the best tech giant for user privacy, but that is a super low bar. Just because they are "the best", doesn't mean they are good at it.
- walterbell 9y ago
  Apple devices can be used without iCloud.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    Can it work without any connections to apple? It's not just iCloud.
    - grzm 9y ago
      If you want software updates, you can get those through your computer rather than connecting to Apple directly. I'm not sure what would be involved in opting out of Apple's iMessage system. Edit to add: looks like that's an option as well in the settings. (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569) Are you asking rhetorically? For someone who repeatedly, adamantly, and assuredly posts about Apple and security, I'd be surprised if you don't already know the answer to your question.
      - CaptSpify 9y ago
        I mean most of the apps, like Maps, Email, GPS, etc. And I don't know the answer to that, because I haven't used an Apple product since the original iPhone. If I'm misunderstanding how they work, then, please, inform me as to what I'm missing. I'm very willing to admit I was mistaken if they don't work the way I think they do. I try to keep up with the basics of how they work, I have my friends show me things, etc. But I in no way want to paint myself as an Apple expert.
        grzm 9y ago
        Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio.
        CaptSpify 9y ago
        > Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. I don't have to be a mechanic to know when a car is broken, just like I don't have to know how all of Apple's software works to know that they don't actually value privacy. Please, prove me wrong. I'd love it if Apple actually put their money where their mouth is. Until then, I know enough about their stack to know that they don't build it in a way that ensures privacy. > You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. And? I can anticipate objections as to any argument. That doesn't change the validity of either side. I don't think I get what you mean by this. > It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Once those arguments become invalid, I'll stop. If I'm saying something that isn't true, please point it out. Until then, I'll will proudly correct the lie that "Apple cares about privacy". I'm sorry that the truth is tedious to you, but there's not much that I can do about that. > Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio. But they could build their systems so that I don't have to go through Apple to use their app, just in the same way that email works. They choose not to. My point is that, until they design their systems so that I can use all of the standard functionality without going through their servers, they aren't taking privacy seriously.
  - kungtotte 9y ago
    Yes, just like you can use a car without gas.
    - grzm 9y ago
      Not true. Even with the latest iOS 11, iCloud is opt-in, and not required. https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/do-you-have-to-use-icloud-services-when-you-upgrade-to-ios-11.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/d... Clearly, there are some features that rely on iCloud, but you can choose not to use those features and still have a functioning device.
    - walterbell 9y ago
      Incorrect. You can use apps which have other synchronization mechanisms, including competitors to iCloud. With "document provider" apps, you can use SSH as a transport mechanism for files.

soneil 9y ago

I still prefer that though. It seems quite clear to me. No-one cares about users, they care about customers. Apple care about their customers. Google care about their customers. Facebook care about their customers. I am an Apple customer. I am a Google user. I am a Facebook user. See the difference? So do they.

CaptSpify 9y ago
I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring that. I just don't like that they try to give the feeling of being "pro-privacy", when their actions speak otherwise. I find it very deceptive.

earenndil 9y ago

Sure. And as it is likely to continue to be good for their bottom line for the forseeable future, I continue to benefit from patronizing them. See what's happening here? It's a selfish economic system whereby we both benefit. I guess capitalism works sometimes, at least for (relatively) short periods of time. Who knew?

CaptSpify 9y ago
The problem is that you don't both benefit in the ways you think you are. Apple is pretending to be pro-privacy, but they actually aren't pro-privacy. You think you are getting a privacy-oriented device, but you are not. I would love it if Apple did build privacy oriented systems. I would be their biggest supporter, and I would spend mountains of money on their products. And I do think they would make good money from it from everyone. But until they do design their systems correctly, all we have evidence of is that they can make money by deceiving their users.

matwood 9y ago

> Apple pretends to care about privacy as long as it is good for the bottom line. I don't care why Apple's interests are aligned with mine, as long as they are. When it comes to corporations, dealing with one whose bottom line is aligned with my interest is exactly what I want. Also, Apple is not 'pretending' to care about privacy. While they have had some embarrassing bugs, they do put privacy as a high priority. Many speculate that Apple is behind in the assistant category because of privacy concerns.

CaptSpify 9y ago
> I don't care why Apple's interests are aligned with mine, as long as they are. When it comes to corporations, dealing with one whose bottom line is aligned with my interest is exactly what I want. Agreed! I have no problem with that either, and I think it's great when it happens! > Also, Apple is not 'pretending' to care about privacy. While they have had some embarrassing bugs, they do put privacy as a high priority. Many speculate that Apple is behind in the assistant category because of privacy concerns. Just because you don't like the fact that they are pretending, doesn't make it untrue. I'm sure that to a certain degree they do care about privacy, but when push comes to shove, they choose money over privacy. They have the ability to design systems with privacy inherent in them, yet they choose not to.

weego 9y ago

If you want purity of intent in every transaction or contract you ever enter into then the world is going to be a very frustrating place.

CaptSpify 9y ago
> If you want purity of intent in every transaction or contract you ever enter into then the world is going to be a very frustrating place. I do, and it is. I don't think I get what you mean. Just because a lot of groups choose to lie about their intentions means that it's OK that Apple does the same?
- weego 9y ago
  But they aren't lying are they? "We care about your privacy" is not a lie just because they care out of necessary for their share price, it's just not the unreasonably ideal situation you want. You cannot reasonably expect everyone with the same goals to have perfectly aligned intent, and you certainly cannot expect a company of tens of thousands of people to all completely align their intent not only as a collective but also with you as an individual. If their goals shift, forced by their intent, you drop them. I can't see any other way to pragmatically get along or make progress in life.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    I'd strongly argue that my view isn't about being ideal, it's the minimum. Fact: We don't know what they do with our data Fact: They refuse to show us what they do with our data, even though they could Fact: They have taken actions that, while I obviously don't have direct evidence of this, looks extremely like they are handing over control of other people's data to someone else, who is known to be abusive with it Fact: They can design their system in a way that avoids all of this, yet they continually choose not to All of this points in one direction, and there's very little evidence pointing in the other direction. It seems pretty obvious to me that their pro-privacy standpoint is all just smoke and mirrors. I'm sure they care to some extent, but they clearly value money over their user's privacy. If I say that I care about my health, but I eat terrible quality foods, don't exercise, and ignore people who try to encourage me to be healthier, then it it obvious that I don't care about my health, despite what I say.