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The comments here are more evidence the "hacker" part of hacker news really no longer applies :) In seriousness - of course putting this in your house is a a p
by phil21 9y ago
The comments here are more evidence the "hacker" part of hacker news really no longer applies :)
In seriousness - of course putting this in your house is a a pretty risky and likely dumb idea. I absolutely have plans to do this though, just with a fire resistant (concrete block) "power shed" 50 yards away from my house.
Someone that can build a working DIY powerwall can cheaply build a cinder-block shack and run conduit back to the living quarters. If you can't afford to do that I'd say you can't afford to do the project at all.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y agoI love your comment, but do you mean 50 ft. or do you really mean yards? Not many people have a yard the size of half a football field, and even if they did, it would probably put the danger close to a neighbors house. So seriously, what would a reasonably safe distance be? Should this be avoided if you don't live in a really rural area with a giant property?
- burger_moon 9y agoYou could build that in your garage with a concrete block or 3/8 steel box and a fire retardant system. Hell you could probably even just buy a sufficiently large gun safe if you didn't want to build something. Actually even a metal fire cabinet for storing acetone and such chemicals may be sufficient but if someone were interested would need to research this further of course.
- aphextron 9y agoOr you could just hire an electrician and buy new batteries so you don't have to worry about burning your house down. Lithium battery packs are perfectly safe to keep in your home when used and maintained properly. It's not even so much the DIY aspect of this that's an issue, as much as it is people thinking it's OK to use old batteries. It's not. These are not deep cycle lead acid batteries. LiPo cells have a very definite cycle lifetime, beyond which their internal resistance grows to dangerous levels. Using them beyond that is just reckless and irresponsible.
- phil21 9y agoI just used 50 yards as an overly cautious example. I haven't done enough research to feel comfortable giving a number, but it should be well under 50ft even. You do make a good point that this won't be an option for everyone. If you live in a dense city without yards, I guess this is one fun project I'd take a pass on. If you live in a standard suburb you are probably okay at least in terms of space.
- starlust2 9y agoHave you done any research into the potential energy release? Here is a decent primer. At about 26:30 they talk about battery failure testing. They have a 2 ton blast door in the room where tests are conducted. http://www.pbs.org/video/nova-search-super-battery/ http://www.pbs.org/video/nova-search-super-battery/
- kbenson 9y agoSince they noted an 1800 degree flame (for what looked like an extended period), I wanted to look up the temperature at which cinder blocks failed, and came across this[1]. Apparently, depending how "cinder" your cinder blocks are, they might actually catch fire. :/ 1: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=94710 http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=94710
- fpgaminer 9y agoYour comment about a power shed reminded me of this neat youtube series where someone living off-grid built their own hydro-electric generator to supplement their solar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUNMjdmGIPI&list=PLEZ2hvCDKUpEvvgEy_b5C6UnYNslaYcik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUNMjdmGIPI&list=PLEZ2hvCDKU...
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- thaumaturgy 9y ago"Hackers" historically developed such a depth of understanding of some system that it allowed them to modify and subvert the system to suit their needs. The people here who have built power systems for Battlebots and are familiar with the variability in specifications for 18650 cells and are saying that this isn't a good idea for reason X, Y, and Z, those people are the hackers. The people that are saying, "a battery's a battery, I'll just put it in a shed" are dabblers. They don't understand the technology well enough to do it safely, so they just build it with the assumption that it's going to go FOOF someday.
- FussyZeus 9y agoWell, the Powerwall, along with batteries, also has a ton of safety features that make it safe to install inside a home without worry. One would argue even if you know exactly what you're doing, unless you're replicating those same safety features as well, you should put it in a shed anyway. That said, totally agree with what you're saying.
- kbenson 9y ago> Well, the Powerwall, along with batteries, also has a ton of safety features that make it safe to install inside a home without worry. The logical conclusion of this is someone mentioning ICE vehicles and gas tanks, so allow me to be that person. If you park your gar in the garage and it's an ICE vehicle, you're parking quite a lot of latent energy in a fairly volatile form in your house. If you wouldn't feel comfortable rigging a bunch of old gas cans in tandem to a little engine your scrounged as a DIY generator and putting it in your garage, maybe you shouldn't rig a bunch of batteries up in a similar arrangement. For that matter, with that perspective, how far away for your cinderblock outhouse is far enough?
- littlestymaar 9y agoThe amount of energy isn't the most interesting thing to consider: a stack of logs contains way more energy than such a powerwall. What matters is “how stable” is that energy storage, and batteries are way less stable than wood ;)
- Piskvorrr 9y agoEh. Of course "hacker" has some overlap with "danger", but that doesn't automatically mean "smart" - Radioactive Boy Scout was an essential hacker. (Now get those newfangled JavaScript contraptions off my lawn; kids these days, calling themselves hackers! waves stick)
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- stcredzero 9y agoIn seriousness - of course putting this in your house is a a pretty risky and likely dumb idea. Would it be possible to design a minimal, modular metal rack to act as thermal isolation? I could picture a scheme with metal bent into a shallow Z shape with obtuse angles, which would direct the burning debris from a failed battery away from all the others. \ \ | | \ \
- saas_co_de 9y ago> The comments here are more evidence the "hacker" part of hacker news really no longer applies :) More like the same response that an article advising people to create their own crypto library would get. Except creating your own crypto library doesn't have the risk of killing your family, neighbors, and emergency responders. Presenting this kind of project as a "hack" is really irresponsible given the very serious risk of death, severe physical injury and property damage involved.
- tlarkworthy 9y agoNo, Hacker Rule Zero, "don't be on fire"[1]. [1] https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Rules
- matthewwiese 9y agoThose read more akin to safety rules with "hacker" tacked on for theme.
- tlarkworthy 9y agoThey are saftey rules, yes, obviously. And they were developed by hackers. It's rule zero for various makerspaces, so I think it's a fairly clear example that caring about fire saftety is compatible with being a "hacker".
- matthewwiese 9y agoOf course safety is compatible with being a hacker. However, safety rules are not unique to hackers nor makers. My issue with the parent is the linking to some makerspace's rules as if they speak for the community at large. Much the same way I find it goofy to use the glider from the Game of Life as the emblem of hackers everywhere. The U.S. Navy's KISS principle equally applies to the amorphous concept of being a hacker, but you don't see people espousing that as a tenant. I just guess I'm against people attributing ideas, &c to something that doesn't need them in the first place (and may even be better when left to the abstract). shrug
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- tlarkworthy 9y ago> The U.S. Navy's KISS principle equally applies to the amorphous concept of being a hacker, but you don't see people espousing that as a tenant. Well I hear it espoused all the time. I think you do too, otherwise you would not be referencing a 1960s phrase in 2018. > My issue with the parent is the linking to some makerspace's rules as if they speak for the community at large. There is no community at large. This site is called hackernews. Paul Graham constantly writes about what a hacker would do in situation X. Literally anybody who feels like it can call themselves a hacker. There is no professional body, w00t! So if London hackerspace says they are hackers, and they write some rules, ergo => some legit hackers made those rules > I just guess I'm against people attributing ideas, &c to something that doesn't need them in the first place (and may even be better when left to the abstract) Well you sound miserable if you are against some people calling themselves hackers.
- yardie 9y agoIn any hacking group there has always been a large contingent who criticize using the worst case scenario. It's pretty par for the course when engaged in any critical thinking. If I had the space and need to build a powerwall. I probably wouldn't do it with a bunch of 18650s. Calb and Winston cells make a lot more sense.
- jotm 9y agoIt's quite sad, "don't do this, don't do that, never use the stairs 'cause you can die and insurance won't pay". What's the word for "non-hackers"... "normies"? While Li-Ion is a different beast, I used to play with car batteries and UPSes, a simple setup could run some lights, fridge, the phones and computers for over a day. It took some time before I wisened up and made a separate metal box for everything. Until then, ran it all from the closed balcony.
- WJW 9y ago"Muggles"? :)
- bb88 9y ago> Someone that can build a working DIY powerwall can cheaply build a cinder-block shack and run conduit back to the living quarters The real issue here is to prevent thermal runaway. I would go further, and add a thermal cutoff switch to turn off the battery charging if it's too warm outside (We've had summer days here at 115F.) Then maybe a fire suppression system of some sort.
- semi-extrinsic 9y agoFire supression should be pretty easy in this configuration. Get a 55 gallon drum of deionised water, put it on top of you battery shack, feed a plastic hose from the bottom of the tank into the shed and seal the hose with a plastic that melts at, say, 150 F.
- switchbak 9y agoWith all the recommendations of mods, custom PCBs, sheds, cinderblock enclosures, underground bomb shelters, etc - the $5500 Tesla PowerWall doesn't sound so bad at all! Edit: removed concern about deionized water.
- bb88 9y agoWe really need a battery that's high capacity and doesn't explode.
- moron4hire 9y agoI touched a six volt battery to the back of my neck and got told by HN I was going to fry my brain. Grossly overestimating risk is a minor league sport around here. Why do you think most of these people haven't actually started their own company or left their supposedly soul-sucking corporate jobs, yet?