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Airborn: Create and edit files online, securely
- iamwil 9y agoAirborn needs to charge more for their business users. If there's one common lesson on Indie Hackers, it's that everyone (including customers) stands to gain from charging more. If Airborn creators on on this thread: how did you think about getting people to pay while making the source available? It doesn't seem commonly done.
- twiss 9y agoYeah, I'll look at increasing prices. Thanks. We're basically banking on medium-size businesses finding it more convenient to use a hosted service, especially when it offers the same or a higher level of security.
- otoburb 9y agoGreat way to comply with GDPR! Also presumably reduces your data management overhead slightly, although it seems you're still storing data on your own systems[1]. This reminds me of SpiderOak's "No Knowledge" claim[2]. [1] https://www.airborn.io/docs/security https://www.airborn.io/docs/security [2] https://spideroak.com/no-knowledge/ https://spideroak.com/no-knowledge/
- twiss 9y agoThanks! No, all data is stored either on Amazon S3 or on our servers. The way we make sure that nobody can read your data is using encryption.
- alehul 9y ago(Disclaimer: I don't know much at all about the current standards of encryption) Is this security not already standard, and not practiced by companies like Dropbox? As a side note, I like the collaboration aspect and one-person-per-paragraph is a pretty smart idea! Edit: To those downvoting, sorry, I'm just curious and I think some of us were unaware of the differences between Airborn and other services, which I've now learned can still view your data
- CGamesPlay 9y agoMost "encrypted communications" means that no unauthorized third parties can view the data as a result of the encryption. However, even if Dropbox stores your files encrypted, they still have the keys to those files and so could be coerced into decrypting (them through a warrant, for example).
- lucideer 9y agoThis looks potentially nice. The initial assumption with these types of services is always that an attacker, having compromised their servers, could simply inject malicious code into the browser. From their docs: > Normally, when hackers get access to your server, they can change the code that gets sent to customers. For example, they could make the code say "send your password to us". Then, even though they can't read documents immediately, passwords start coming in and they can soon read them. > To solve this, we're using a relatively new web technology (Service Workers) to install some code which can't be changed without setting off a warning to you. That code then keeps taps on all other code, and checks that it matches the publicly available version on GitHub. Interested to see how robust it is...
- EGreg 9y agoThat's because the Web is not secure in precisely that way. But how would you know an app developer wasn't compromised and signed the next version with a backdoor also?
- twiss 9y agoThe Service Worker doesn't simply check a signature from the developer, it checks the source code against the version on GitHub. So, to know whether it contains a backdoor, read the code on GitHub.
- CGamesPlay 9y agoInteresting strategy to list updating the software as a premium feature. Will you make old versions of the software permanently available to customers to install on new devices? Will you support your v1 API forever?
- twiss 9y agoNon-business accounts update to the latest version automatically. If you login to an old non-updated account using a new device, you get the old version. We might eventually notify old accounts that they have to update, but we haven't needed to do so yet. If you pay close attention to the requests by https://www.airborn.io/demo https://www.airborn.io/demo, you can see "v2" :)
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- oftenwrong 9y agoBetter headline: "Airborn: Create and edit files online, securely." HN has too many submissions with single-word headlines that tell you absolutely nothing about what you're clicking on.
- raleighm 9y agoThanks. Done.
- arnarbi 9y agoHow are encryption keys established between the clients?
- prophesi 9y agoI like how they don't flaunt crypto terms all over the place. Calling encrypted content "gibberish" is fun. And I think it's a genius use-case for Service Workers. From their security page[0]: "we're using a relatively new web technology (Service Workers) to install some code which can't be changed without setting off a warning to you. That code then keeps taps[sic] on all other code, and checks that it matches the publicly available version on GitHub." Combine this with HSTS, and you can be certain the code running hasn't been modified by a third-party. [0] https://www.airborn.io/docs/security https://www.airborn.io/docs/security
- forapurpose 9y ago> you can be certain To be precise: If it works as described, it makes it (a little? substantially? orders of magnitude?) more difficult for third parties to modify the code. "Certain" is not a word used in security, IME.
- prophesi 9y agoVery true. You probably still need to trust that the developers' Github accounts aren't compromised. I was looking at their repo[0] for this Service Worker verification, and their "So what's the problem this solves?" section confuses me, as it doesn't explain the how. :/ [0] https://github.com/airbornio/signed-web-apps https://github.com/airbornio/signed-web-apps
- twiss 9y agoWhile a hacker gaining access to the developers' GitHub account would be bad, they would still have to actually push the malicious code to GitHub before they can serve it from airborn.io. So, if people pay attention to pushes to GitHub, this attack could still be detected (but not prevented). For prevention, one possibility would be to require all commits to have been on GitHub for at least 24h or so. Then, the devs would have some time to try and get their accounts back. We don't implement that today, though. That section attempts to explain how web apps work today, if you don't use that library. Reading the entire thing back, I agree that the how is never explained very well, although https://www.airborn.io/docs/security https://www.airborn.io/docs/security does explain it.
- esseti 9y agofew questions: - here [0] "All documents are encrypted before they leave your computer" how then one can collaborate as in gdocs (from the pic it seems like that) - what key do you use for encrypting the docs? is it the user password? if so it can't be recoverd (as dashlane for example [1]) is this the approach? PS: the login seems broken https://www.airborn.io/app https://www.airborn.io/app [0]https://www.airborn.io/docs/security https://www.airborn.io/docs/security [1]https://support.dashlane.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003111325 https://support.dashlane.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003111325
- twiss 9y ago- When you create a collaboration link, it contains an encryption key. (You can additionally also set a password.) All messages sent to the server by collaborators are then encrypted with those. The collaboration algorithm is currently quite simple, and paragraphs are locked when editing them. In the future we'd like to use a P2P algorithm, e.g. using Y.js. [1] - When you sign up, the page downloads a file on your PC which contains your username, and your password encrypted with a "password recovery key". When you lose your password, we send you your password recovery key and you can decrypt your password with it. Login being broken is weird, do you see any errors? [1]: https://github.com/airbornio/airborn/issues/15 https://github.com/airbornio/airborn/issues/15
- mapgrep 9y agoIt is clever that you put the encryption key after the hash sign ("#") component of the collaboration URL, so it never touches your servers.
- yoavm 9y agoDon't trust it as a security measure though - it's very easy to read the hash data in JS and then submit it to the server.
- twiss 9y agoCertainly - although the JS can also just read the document and submit that. To make sure that it isn't doing either, you'd have to read the code on GitHub.
- amelius 9y ago> Even if we get hacked, they can't read your documents. Unless e.g. they make the system serve up malicious javascript.
- twiss 9y agoPlease see https://www.airborn.io/docs/security https://www.airborn.io/docs/security for a description of how we solved that :)
- Invictus0 9y agoIs Google Docs not secure enough already? I haven't heard of any hacks on that platform. What additional features are offered here besides security?
- braincoke 9y agoFrom what I understand, Airborn.io has the advantages of being Open Source and respecting your privacy (by storing the data encrypted).
- michaelgrafl 9y agoGoogle can read your documents, if I understand correctly. Airborn can't. Whether that's important to you, only you can judge.
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- woranl 9y agoDoes Airborn have paying customers? How important is the issue that they are trying to fix?
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- mapgrep 9y agoOn the document editor, is it just me or are you missing a blockquote control? Also, is there a reason you're using inline styles to do italics and bold instead of the specific tags for those things? (Deleted question you answered downthread.)
- twiss 9y agoYou can create a blockquote element by pressing Tab, although it won't have any special styling. If you want, you could add some CSS in Raw view. I'll look into making a control for this specifically, although IIRC browser support for blockquotes in contenteditable is a bit inconsistent. Regarding inline styles, I don't remember why, sorry. It might again have been to fix some inconsistency between browsers.
- mapgrep 9y agoThanks for the information. FWIW my main issue with inline styles is, my use case would be taking the HTML into another system, and the more pervasive the inline styles are, the more likely they are to override our the desired styling contained in stylesheets produced by that system. They may help your product work better on purely its own terms but they are (IMO) highly suboptimal when HTML leaves your system and travels.
- raleigh_user 9y agoYou need Patrick from PriceIntelligently to analyze your pricing page. Maybe tweet at him or Hiten Shah and see if either will help. I'd recon they would suggest you keep 2 tiers and add a call us tier for b2b enterprise. I see where decently sized companies would pay a lot more than $10/month/user to ensure their sensitive docs can't be stolen. I certainly am no expert but if the product works as it seems this should be more valuable than $100/year/employee.
- EGreg 9y agoWhat are their emails? Write it in an antispam way, we'd be interested also
- pccampbell 9y agopatrick[at]priceintelligently[dot]com Always happy to help where I can when it comes to pricing. PC
- raleigh_user 9y agoThe man, the myth, the legend. He’s going to roast your pricing but I’m sure you’ll grow a ton from it.
- pccampbell 9y agoHa! I do it respectfully and only backed by data though. :)
- treis 9y agoY'all have one of the best websites I've ever seen. Seriously nice work.
- bovermyer 9y agoDunno email, but Patrick's Twitter handle is Patticus.
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- ocdtrekkie 9y agoSo I remember trying this before, and it had a 'desktop' and an app store where you could add more apps, but right now the demo seems to be limited to documents and presentations. Is that a change in focus or a limitation of the demo?
- twiss 9y agoYeah. I've been focusing on office apps rather than "any apps", and I removed the window manager based on feedback here and elsewhere that it felt too "heavy" and unnecessary. Also, the app store was actually the Firefox OS marketplace, which was shut down. (And to be honest, the apps in it weren't super useful for Airbon to begin with. There weren't very many apps for "serious work".) Under the hood, it's theoretically still super easy to add/install apps in Airborn, though, and Firefox OS's marketplace server is open source, so maybe in the future?
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoI can agree with that, the window manager was really neat (as I've always indicated these sorts of cloud platforms are like virtual OSes), but probably didn't add much to usability. Performance seems really smooth, I'm glad to see this is still coming along quite nicely. Even if it isn't the best UI, I think you really do still need to get something like EtherCalc on here, even for personal use, I love spreadsheets for storing structured information, and for business users, it's almost definitely a need.
- mychael 9y agoNice idea, but the design of this leaves a lot to be desired.
- twiss 9y agoDo you have some more specific criticism on the design?
- geekamongus 9y agoThis made the rounds on Reddit a few months ago, and it was called airbornOS back then. Glad to see they dropped the "OS" part, as it really isn't an OS.
- ummonk 9y agoHave you considered increasing your pricing, and adding more premium features? As a supporter of client-side encryption in cloud apps, I really want to make sure you have a sustainable business. https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/saas_pricing https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/saas_pric...
- twiss 9y agoYes! What kind of premium features do you have in mind?
- anf 9y agoA Premium Enterprise support Platinum Plan for $500/mo can be a big seller and allegedly the minimum expense report you can file in some large orgs [1]. 1. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/08/13/doubling-saas-revenue/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/08/13/doubling-saas-revenue/
- chatmasta 9y agoLike others, I also like the novel service workers solution (mitigation might be more accurate) to client side code integrity. I’m more interested in how you handle the encryption keys. Specifically, how does a user share a document with another? You mentioned that the “share group” has its own private key; where is this stored?
- twiss 9y agoThe encryption key is in the share link, and also stored encrypted in all collaborating users' accounts (if they have one - an account is not required to collaborate).
- chatmasta 9y agoSo the user is responsible for securely transmitting the share URL? i.e. Secrets are shared out-of-band? It’s pretty clever, I like it. Definitely not the holy grail of client side browser-based multiparty encryption, but you’ve found some innovative techniques. Bravo, good luck with it.
- twiss 9y agoYep. Or, you can also set a password on the document and share that out-of-band, if you don't trust whatever it is you use to send the URL.
- udia 9y agoI just tried using this app with one of my friends and I found that editing in real time between two people wasn't working as intended. When someone else wrote text, the text I wrote (in a separate paragraph) would disappear. Is anyone else seeing this? It needs a bit more polish before I could use it for encrypted collaborative editing.
- twiss 9y agoThanks for the report, I'll look into it. But yeah, the collaboration is still a bit rough around the edges currently.
- lsh123 9y agoAs usual, the discussion about whether something is secure enough or not should start from describing various attack vectors (which will be different for different class of users). AFAIK, the airborn product tries to eliminate an attack on its own servers / data stored on servers and in transit. While it is a good thing but by itself it doesn't necessarily make all the users of the product secure. In particular, they ignore attacks on the client itself, injection on the network, and several other "offline" attack vectors (e.g. taking pictures of user's screen). I understand the desire to make marketing simple for end users, but I really don't think that it helps people make rational decisions about security.
- joewee 9y agoIs there a open source alternative to this? Something I could deploy on my own server?