9 ms·

I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off reli

by jawns 9y ago

I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice, although it certainly looks like that's the way it's going. But let's be clear: This is not shocking or unexpected. One of the primary reasons why young adults nowadays are not religious is because their parents, even if they were nominally religious, did not raise them as active members of their faith. And in many cases, _their_ parents only made a half-hearted effort, or tried to off-load the task onto parochial schools without reinforcing the faith at home. So that's basically three generations of decline, covering roughly 60 years. And when a trend has been going on that long, the results should not be a surprise to anyone. One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Another interesting question is how Christianity and other faiths will respond, in terms of evangelization. Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries?

russian_bot 9y ago
I think the majority of the evangelism will move to places where there isn't a traditional evangelical movement. Some of the fastest growing conversion efforts in my belief system (Pentecostal) has been in Africa and Asia.
jerf 9y ago
"I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice," Christianity is not the only religion. On the generational time scale, Europe (considered as a geography) may be trading Christianity for Islam.
- gumby 9y ago
  That is of course possible but I think more likely the same reasons people are ignoring christianity will cause people in the same environments to ignore other religions. I could get into what I think those reasons are but that could open an HN flame war, so unless there's a followup comment on the topic I won't get into it.
- checkyoursudo 9y ago
  I would be super surprised if young muslims were any different than young christians and young-everything-elses in this regard. The increase in islam in europe is primarily from an influx of muslim immigrants. On the generational time scale, you can probably expect their children to become accustomed to universal culture[0] just like the rest of europe (and north america, and probably everywhere eventually). Because of continued migration, Islam will probably increase in absolute numbers for a while yet. But I doubt it will ever become dominant in regions where it is not already dominant. Being targets of missionaries from, e.g., Africa or South America (if they're more religious than EU/NA? I don't know?) would be a really interesting (to me) idea. Again, I'd be surprised. But interesting nonetheless! [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim. It has to be either a hostile takeover (think Egyptians and Copts, Lebanon and christians, or any other kind of religion-based cleansings) or it will be two communities. Muslim and post-christians. (And proponents of religious tolerance have already promised us that no hostile takeover is ever possible, didn't they?)
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    > Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim The successful pitch of a certain variant of Islam seems to be "structure": That it tells you what to do and what not to do down to the tiniest minutiae (and it tells you that it's desirable that everybody sticks to the same set of rules, and if necessary, is made to do so). For people who are overwhelmed by the many degrees of freedom in some western societies, that seems to look like a safety net: The most active radical islamists in Germany are converts.
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      I can see that but I don't think this will ever be a particularly popular reason, numbers-wise. Not everybody is born zealot.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Religious decline is a global phenomenon. That's why religions the world over are tending towards regressive policies: they're an increasing majority as other groups decline.
  - simula67 9y ago
    Nope. From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism > Two global polls on the subject have been conducted by WIN/Gallup International: their 2015 poll featured over 64,000 respondents and indicated that 11% were "convinced atheists" whereas an earlier 2012 poll found that 13% of respondents were "convinced atheist Religious decline seems to be Western and East Asian phenomenon
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      That's also two areas with arguably most of contributions to humanity. Is this a coincidence? You either do or pray.
      - simula67 9y ago
        While these areas where "making contributions to humanity" they were religious
        thriftwy 9y ago
        They stopped being religious while making contributions to humanity. As if they burned through their stash. Also, this is exaggerated. Greeks and Romans did awesome things that nobody could reproduce until XX century while being "pagans". Christianity just stole those results, tried to pass as their own.
        simula67 9y ago
        > They stopped being religious while making contributions to humanity. As if they burned through their stash My claim was merely that you don't need to be atheist to contribute to humanity > Christianity just stole those results, tried to pass as their own. Christianity did not steal anything, they built on existing knowledge. No one is denying that. Every generation builds on what previous generation knew. You think Christians should have the thrown out knowledge from pagans in the name of honor ?
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  As the major religion, or as the major world-view? It looks like atheism/agnosticism/no religion is set to remain the majority world-view in the countries where it already is. Unless you subscribe to the notion that Muslims will be in the majority in those countries because of immigration and large families. Some extreme right political parties claim this, but the sources for these statistical prognoses seem dubious at best.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    Only on a global level. In Rotterdam, Antwerp and Brussels and Amsterdam and even Paris is very close this is now fact among the very young (kindergarten). That means that it's only a matter of time unless something drastic changes. But it would need to be very drastic. Even if immigration stops completely muslims will still be a majority there, at the very latest in 30 years, but very likely much sooner. And ... www.ejournals.eu/pliki/art/3178/ Religion has always retreated while great economic progress was being made. And time and time again great economic progress periods ... end. And time and time again ... nobody sees it coming, and time and time again the exact same thing happens : religion comes back with a vengeance. Even in this current period. Where economic progress crashed, an extremely intolerant brand of religion immediately gained an incredible following. Google "Egypt in the 60s". Google "Iran under the Shah". Google "Turkey under Ataturk". Now this may or may not be happening soon (and soon means something like a decade), but that's another one of those things people think during periods of great economic progress. That they never end. That it's impossible for anything to go wrong. But I must say, even today, one walk around the North station of Brussels through Schaarbeek and Molenbeek will tell you that it's not going so well for everybody, especially if you stop in a street shop for dinner (note: sorry to state this but do not attempt in the evening if you're a woman).
  - nsxwolf 9y ago
    Muslims are the only ones having more children than the replacement level, so could you expect a different outcome?
pmarreck 9y ago
> One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Oh yeah. And you won't have to wait several decades to find correlations, either. At least as far as violent crime is concerned, the answer seems to be "things will get better": https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be-criminals-than-theists https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be... (quora link, but many references cited)
- jawns 9y ago
  You don't see any confounding variables there?
  - pmarreck 9y ago
    Please explain the confounding variables present across multiple sources of this information, especially given that the predominant religion is (by design) supposed to influence, and be a hallmark of approved/condoned, behavior. I've heard "ethnic/racial homogeneity" oft-referenced as a criticism, but you can't just say that- you have to show that homogeneity is separately correlated with reduced crime, without regard to religious orientation. Once you do that, THEN you can levy this criticism.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  Assuming for a moment that atheist are the friendlier folks in general, what makes you think that people become atheists after leaving christianity behind? When taking an atheist perspective (I'm not an atheist, but I hope I can fake it well enough for a moment for the purpose of this discourse), I'd describe the shift that happens in "Western" societies as "swapping one superstition for another", not "leaving superstition behind". Or did Tarot cards, miracle healers and summoning the dead (and the like) become atheist tools and practices recently?
jamesrcole 9y ago
> One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? I'm not up on all the research that's been done, but we already have data on this. It's not hard to get - it's just comparing degrees of religious following with stats on things like crime, teen pregnancies etc. I remember hearing of a study (I think from pew) showing that, despite what is often claimed, the less religious countries had less crime. (I did a quick Google search but couldn't find a link) (And before anyone says correlation doesn't mean cause, I'm responding to a comment asking specifically about correlations) Here's something that came up http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-vi...
- maaark 9y ago
  To quote Trent Reznor, "God is an excuse."
  - cat199 9y ago
    to quote King David, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." what's your point?
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      ~King David didn't record Head Like a Hole. Your argument is invalid.~ Quotations are usually the result of either some serious distillation of individual philosophical thought beforehand, or selection pressure from those who propagate it afterward. The insertion of a quote into an argument isn't appealing to the authority of the author, but recognizing that they were the first to formulate it. It is suggesting that those currently in the discussion are reinventing the wheel. Other people have already considered the problem and published their findings in more succinct form. In this case, Reznor is apparently calling out the religious on justifying their antisocial or nonsensical behaviors with the ultimate appeal to authority: the fictional character that is better than everyone else by definition. As such, responding to one quote from a famous person with a quote from another famous person is only productive if the quote could otherwise stand alone without the attribution. To close the argument, I'll reference The Emperor's New Clothes, which is a parable that suggests children and fools are immune to the allure of sophisticated fictions. The fool wonders why he should believe in God, but he is foolish not for that doubt, but for failing to see the profit in playing along. The foolish parent tells their child that Santa Claus is not real, because they could otherwise have better-behaved children all December long. It is the same with God. What priest would admit to doubt when it is the tithes from believers that keep him warm, dry, and fed? For him, God is an excuse for freeloading upon the largesse of others. "God is dead, and no one cares; if there is a Hell, I'll see you there." --Nietzsche
pgeorgi 9y ago
> Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Local churches are ramping up their efforts for a local mission (instead of assuming "Christianity as default") for at least 10 years now. Those with international ties have more international staff around here, too (partly because they lack the influx of new local people). ... Besides that, American churches in particular sent missions to Europe for decades.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I had a work acquaintance a couple years ago whose brother was on a mission trip... to California. It was considered one of the most difficult regions to work. The Jehova's witnesses and/or Mormons that famously knock on everyone's door? They're on missions in the first world. So the very religious have been doing missions in the first world for a while.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    It is my impression that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons primarily sought after people who were nominally Christian, and had their greatest success with such people. I'm not sure how successful they are with atheists, or even with Muslims.
- taborj 9y ago
  Indeed. My church sponsors missions all over; Zimbabwe, Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc. A few years ago, we sponsored one of our elders who went on a multi-year mission to the UK.
Freak_NL 9y ago
> For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Short answer: quite likely. There seems to be a strong correlation between a religious majority and law-making when it comes to topics that touch religious dogmas. For example, laws that make abortion illegal and not allowing same-sex marriage.
pjc50 9y ago
Indeed. Between war, television, and the sexual revolution, Christianity's social position of control was eroded decades ago. It's just taken a while to propagate out. This summer Ireland holds its referendum on repealing the constitutional ban on abortion. That will be a key final landmark in Western Europe. https://www.repealeight.ie/ https://www.repealeight.ie/
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Per your last paragraph. Yes, not just from the mega-evangelists like the late Billy Graham but from ordinary Christians in South Korea, for example. This has been true for a couple of decades at least.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
logfromblammo 9y ago
It may simply be an indicator that the brutal suppression of apostasy is illegal in those countries. If people have other options for social networking beyond religion, and they don't have to fear for their own safety or livelihood when abandoning their parents' religion, there isn't a whole lot that any particular religion offers that can't be obtained more cheaply from other sources. I'd expect that those who have a real need for religion will likely gravitate towards smaller cults that are more specifically tailored to their preferences. Perhaps those who would prefer to believe in aliens than in angels will become something like the Raelians, and those who prefer fairies and pixies will join an aseembly of neo-animists. No doubt the Jedi Order, Pastafarianism, Discordianism, Subgeniusism, Order of Stendarr, Cult of Cthulhu, and similar pseudo-religions will continue to enjoy the affiliation of people who want their "religion" to be fun, and somewhat ha-ha-only-serious. I think the fears over "Muslim invasion" are largely unfounded. The high religious adherence and over-median birth rate will probably attenuate within one or two generations, as the children and grandchildren of immigrants embrace liberal democracy and assimilate to their new country's native traditions. This will likely manifest earliest as homosexuals outing themselves and abandoning their parents' enclaves. A large number of people only declare a religion because of discrimination by the religious against the non-religious. Once declared non-religion becomes a significant minority, there is much less incentive to pretend. Like the article said, only the most strongly committed will remain. And then they will die off.
benjohnson 9y ago
>>Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Yes! As a Lutheran, I know Lutheran missionaries from Shenzhen China and Ethiopia who are here in the US. China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world, and there's more Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  > China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world Do you have any reliable information on this?
  - benjohnson 9y ago
    I don't thing there is going to be reliable information - the Christians in China keep their heads down for good reason as they've been slaughtered in the past. Here's a good explanation of how the numbers are always going to be suspect: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chinese-Christians-vary-so-much https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chin... That said, I've encountered so many devout Chinese Christians that I suspect that they numbers are higher - and given China's population, if only 15% were Christian, it would probably be the largest. I think we also have to be careful with numbers too in the west - some people say there's 200 million Christians in the US. But I suspect a lot of them just tick off the box on the survey and haven't set foot in a church for years.

by jawns 9y ago

russian_bot 9y ago

I think the majority of the evangelism will move to places where there isn't a traditional evangelical movement. Some of the fastest growing conversion efforts in my belief system (Pentecostal) has been in Africa and Asia.

jerf 9y ago

"I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice," Christianity is not the only religion. On the generational time scale, Europe (considered as a geography) may be trading Christianity for Islam.

gumby 9y ago
That is of course possible but I think more likely the same reasons people are ignoring christianity will cause people in the same environments to ignore other religions. I could get into what I think those reasons are but that could open an HN flame war, so unless there's a followup comment on the topic I won't get into it.
checkyoursudo 9y ago
I would be super surprised if young muslims were any different than young christians and young-everything-elses in this regard. The increase in islam in europe is primarily from an influx of muslim immigrants. On the generational time scale, you can probably expect their children to become accustomed to universal culture[0] just like the rest of europe (and north america, and probably everywhere eventually). Because of continued migration, Islam will probably increase in absolute numbers for a while yet. But I doubt it will ever become dominant in regions where it is not already dominant. Being targets of missionaries from, e.g., Africa or South America (if they're more religious than EU/NA? I don't know?) would be a really interesting (to me) idea. Again, I'd be surprised. But interesting nonetheless! [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
thriftwy 9y ago
Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim. It has to be either a hostile takeover (think Egyptians and Copts, Lebanon and christians, or any other kind of religion-based cleansings) or it will be two communities. Muslim and post-christians. (And proponents of religious tolerance have already promised us that no hostile takeover is ever possible, didn't they?)
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  > Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim The successful pitch of a certain variant of Islam seems to be "structure": That it tells you what to do and what not to do down to the tiniest minutiae (and it tells you that it's desirable that everybody sticks to the same set of rules, and if necessary, is made to do so). For people who are overwhelmed by the many degrees of freedom in some western societies, that seems to look like a safety net: The most active radical islamists in Germany are converts.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    I can see that but I don't think this will ever be a particularly popular reason, numbers-wise. Not everybody is born zealot.
KirinDave 9y ago
Religious decline is a global phenomenon. That's why religions the world over are tending towards regressive policies: they're an increasing majority as other groups decline.
- simula67 9y ago
  Nope. From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism > Two global polls on the subject have been conducted by WIN/Gallup International: their 2015 poll featured over 64,000 respondents and indicated that 11% were "convinced atheists" whereas an earlier 2012 poll found that 13% of respondents were "convinced atheist Religious decline seems to be Western and East Asian phenomenon
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    That's also two areas with arguably most of contributions to humanity. Is this a coincidence? You either do or pray.
    - simula67 9y ago
      While these areas where "making contributions to humanity" they were religious
      - thriftwy 9y ago
        They stopped being religious while making contributions to humanity. As if they burned through their stash. Also, this is exaggerated. Greeks and Romans did awesome things that nobody could reproduce until XX century while being "pagans". Christianity just stole those results, tried to pass as their own.
        simula67 9y ago
        > They stopped being religious while making contributions to humanity. As if they burned through their stash My claim was merely that you don't need to be atheist to contribute to humanity > Christianity just stole those results, tried to pass as their own. Christianity did not steal anything, they built on existing knowledge. No one is denying that. Every generation builds on what previous generation knew. You think Christians should have the thrown out knowledge from pagans in the name of honor ?
Freak_NL 9y ago
As the major religion, or as the major world-view? It looks like atheism/agnosticism/no religion is set to remain the majority world-view in the countries where it already is. Unless you subscribe to the notion that Muslims will be in the majority in those countries because of immigration and large families. Some extreme right political parties claim this, but the sources for these statistical prognoses seem dubious at best.
- candiodari 9y ago
  Only on a global level. In Rotterdam, Antwerp and Brussels and Amsterdam and even Paris is very close this is now fact among the very young (kindergarten). That means that it's only a matter of time unless something drastic changes. But it would need to be very drastic. Even if immigration stops completely muslims will still be a majority there, at the very latest in 30 years, but very likely much sooner. And ... www.ejournals.eu/pliki/art/3178/ Religion has always retreated while great economic progress was being made. And time and time again great economic progress periods ... end. And time and time again ... nobody sees it coming, and time and time again the exact same thing happens : religion comes back with a vengeance. Even in this current period. Where economic progress crashed, an extremely intolerant brand of religion immediately gained an incredible following. Google "Egypt in the 60s". Google "Iran under the Shah". Google "Turkey under Ataturk". Now this may or may not be happening soon (and soon means something like a decade), but that's another one of those things people think during periods of great economic progress. That they never end. That it's impossible for anything to go wrong. But I must say, even today, one walk around the North station of Brussels through Schaarbeek and Molenbeek will tell you that it's not going so well for everybody, especially if you stop in a street shop for dinner (note: sorry to state this but do not attempt in the evening if you're a woman).
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  Muslims are the only ones having more children than the replacement level, so could you expect a different outcome?

pmarreck 9y ago

jawns 9y ago
You don't see any confounding variables there?
- pmarreck 9y ago
  Please explain the confounding variables present across multiple sources of this information, especially given that the predominant religion is (by design) supposed to influence, and be a hallmark of approved/condoned, behavior. I've heard "ethnic/racial homogeneity" oft-referenced as a criticism, but you can't just say that- you have to show that homogeneity is separately correlated with reduced crime, without regard to religious orientation. Once you do that, THEN you can levy this criticism.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pgeorgi 9y ago
Assuming for a moment that atheist are the friendlier folks in general, what makes you think that people become atheists after leaving christianity behind? When taking an atheist perspective (I'm not an atheist, but I hope I can fake it well enough for a moment for the purpose of this discourse), I'd describe the shift that happens in "Western" societies as "swapping one superstition for another", not "leaving superstition behind". Or did Tarot cards, miracle healers and summoning the dead (and the like) become atheist tools and practices recently?

jamesrcole 9y ago

> One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? I'm not up on all the research that's been done, but we already have data on this. It's not hard to get - it's just comparing degrees of religious following with stats on things like crime, teen pregnancies etc. I remember hearing of a study (I think from pew) showing that, despite what is often claimed, the less religious countries had less crime. (I did a quick Google search but couldn't find a link) (And before anyone says correlation doesn't mean cause, I'm responding to a comment asking specifically about correlations) Here's something that came up http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-vi...

maaark 9y ago
To quote Trent Reznor, "God is an excuse."
- cat199 9y ago
  to quote King David, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." what's your point?
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    ~King David didn't record Head Like a Hole. Your argument is invalid.~ Quotations are usually the result of either some serious distillation of individual philosophical thought beforehand, or selection pressure from those who propagate it afterward. The insertion of a quote into an argument isn't appealing to the authority of the author, but recognizing that they were the first to formulate it. It is suggesting that those currently in the discussion are reinventing the wheel. Other people have already considered the problem and published their findings in more succinct form. In this case, Reznor is apparently calling out the religious on justifying their antisocial or nonsensical behaviors with the ultimate appeal to authority: the fictional character that is better than everyone else by definition. As such, responding to one quote from a famous person with a quote from another famous person is only productive if the quote could otherwise stand alone without the attribution. To close the argument, I'll reference The Emperor's New Clothes, which is a parable that suggests children and fools are immune to the allure of sophisticated fictions. The fool wonders why he should believe in God, but he is foolish not for that doubt, but for failing to see the profit in playing along. The foolish parent tells their child that Santa Claus is not real, because they could otherwise have better-behaved children all December long. It is the same with God. What priest would admit to doubt when it is the tithes from believers that keep him warm, dry, and fed? For him, God is an excuse for freeloading upon the largesse of others. "God is dead, and no one cares; if there is a Hell, I'll see you there." --Nietzsche

pgeorgi 9y ago

> Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Local churches are ramping up their efforts for a local mission (instead of assuming "Christianity as default") for at least 10 years now. Those with international ties have more international staff around here, too (partly because they lack the influx of new local people). ... Besides that, American churches in particular sent missions to Europe for decades.

Consultant32452 9y ago
I had a work acquaintance a couple years ago whose brother was on a mission trip... to California. It was considered one of the most difficult regions to work. The Jehova's witnesses and/or Mormons that famously knock on everyone's door? They're on missions in the first world. So the very religious have been doing missions in the first world for a while.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  It is my impression that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons primarily sought after people who were nominally Christian, and had their greatest success with such people. I'm not sure how successful they are with atheists, or even with Muslims.
taborj 9y ago
Indeed. My church sponsors missions all over; Zimbabwe, Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc. A few years ago, we sponsored one of our elders who went on a multi-year mission to the UK.

Freak_NL 9y ago

> For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Short answer: quite likely. There seems to be a strong correlation between a religious majority and law-making when it comes to topics that touch religious dogmas. For example, laws that make abortion illegal and not allowing same-sex marriage.

pjc50 9y ago

Indeed. Between war, television, and the sexual revolution, Christianity's social position of control was eroded decades ago. It's just taken a while to propagate out. This summer Ireland holds its referendum on repealing the constitutional ban on abortion. That will be a key final landmark in Western Europe. https://www.repealeight.ie/ https://www.repealeight.ie/

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

Per your last paragraph. Yes, not just from the mega-evangelists like the late Billy Graham but from ordinary Christians in South Korea, for example. This has been true for a couple of decades at least.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

logfromblammo 9y ago

It may simply be an indicator that the brutal suppression of apostasy is illegal in those countries. If people have other options for social networking beyond religion, and they don't have to fear for their own safety or livelihood when abandoning their parents' religion, there isn't a whole lot that any particular religion offers that can't be obtained more cheaply from other sources. I'd expect that those who have a real need for religion will likely gravitate towards smaller cults that are more specifically tailored to their preferences. Perhaps those who would prefer to believe in aliens than in angels will become something like the Raelians, and those who prefer fairies and pixies will join an aseembly of neo-animists. No doubt the Jedi Order, Pastafarianism, Discordianism, Subgeniusism, Order of Stendarr, Cult of Cthulhu, and similar pseudo-religions will continue to enjoy the affiliation of people who want their "religion" to be fun, and somewhat ha-ha-only-serious. I think the fears over "Muslim invasion" are largely unfounded. The high religious adherence and over-median birth rate will probably attenuate within one or two generations, as the children and grandchildren of immigrants embrace liberal democracy and assimilate to their new country's native traditions. This will likely manifest earliest as homosexuals outing themselves and abandoning their parents' enclaves. A large number of people only declare a religion because of discrimination by the religious against the non-religious. Once declared non-religion becomes a significant minority, there is much less incentive to pretend. Like the article said, only the most strongly committed will remain. And then they will die off.

benjohnson 9y ago

>>Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Yes! As a Lutheran, I know Lutheran missionaries from Shenzhen China and Ethiopia who are here in the US. China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world, and there's more Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.

Slansitartop 9y ago
> China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world Do you have any reliable information on this?
- benjohnson 9y ago
  I don't thing there is going to be reliable information - the Christians in China keep their heads down for good reason as they've been slaughtered in the past. Here's a good explanation of how the numbers are always going to be suspect: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chinese-Christians-vary-so-much https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chin... That said, I've encountered so many devout Chinese Christians that I suspect that they numbers are higher - and given China's population, if only 15% were Christian, it would probably be the largest. I think we also have to be careful with numbers too in the west - some people say there's 200 million Christians in the US. But I suspect a lot of them just tick off the box on the survey and haven't set foot in a church for years.