16 ms·

'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe

95 points by neverminder 9y ago

jawns 9y ago
I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice, although it certainly looks like that's the way it's going. But let's be clear: This is not shocking or unexpected. One of the primary reasons why young adults nowadays are not religious is because their parents, even if they were nominally religious, did not raise them as active members of their faith. And in many cases, _their_ parents only made a half-hearted effort, or tried to off-load the task onto parochial schools without reinforcing the faith at home. So that's basically three generations of decline, covering roughly 60 years. And when a trend has been going on that long, the results should not be a surprise to anyone. One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Another interesting question is how Christianity and other faiths will respond, in terms of evangelization. Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries?
- russian_bot 9y ago
  I think the majority of the evangelism will move to places where there isn't a traditional evangelical movement. Some of the fastest growing conversion efforts in my belief system (Pentecostal) has been in Africa and Asia.
- jerf 9y ago
  "I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice," Christianity is not the only religion. On the generational time scale, Europe (considered as a geography) may be trading Christianity for Islam.
  - gumby 9y ago
    That is of course possible but I think more likely the same reasons people are ignoring christianity will cause people in the same environments to ignore other religions. I could get into what I think those reasons are but that could open an HN flame war, so unless there's a followup comment on the topic I won't get into it.
  - checkyoursudo 9y ago
    I would be super surprised if young muslims were any different than young christians and young-everything-elses in this regard. The increase in islam in europe is primarily from an influx of muslim immigrants. On the generational time scale, you can probably expect their children to become accustomed to universal culture[0] just like the rest of europe (and north america, and probably everywhere eventually). Because of continued migration, Islam will probably increase in absolute numbers for a while yet. But I doubt it will ever become dominant in regions where it is not already dominant. Being targets of missionaries from, e.g., Africa or South America (if they're more religious than EU/NA? I don't know?) would be a really interesting (to me) idea. Again, I'd be surprised. But interesting nonetheless! [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim. It has to be either a hostile takeover (think Egyptians and Copts, Lebanon and christians, or any other kind of religion-based cleansings) or it will be two communities. Muslim and post-christians. (And proponents of religious tolerance have already promised us that no hostile takeover is ever possible, didn't they?)
    - pgeorgi 9y ago
      > Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim The successful pitch of a certain variant of Islam seems to be "structure": That it tells you what to do and what not to do down to the tiniest minutiae (and it tells you that it's desirable that everybody sticks to the same set of rules, and if necessary, is made to do so). For people who are overwhelmed by the many degrees of freedom in some western societies, that seems to look like a safety net: The most active radical islamists in Germany are converts.
- pmarreck 9y ago
  > One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Oh yeah. And you won't have to wait several decades to find correlations, either. At least as far as violent crime is concerned, the answer seems to be "things will get better": https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be-criminals-than-theists https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be... (quora link, but many references cited)
  - jawns 9y ago
    You don't see any confounding variables there?
    - pmarreck 9y ago
      Please explain the confounding variables present across multiple sources of this information, especially given that the predominant religion is (by design) supposed to influence, and be a hallmark of approved/condoned, behavior. I've heard "ethnic/racial homogeneity" oft-referenced as a criticism, but you can't just say that- you have to show that homogeneity is separately correlated with reduced crime, without regard to religious orientation. Once you do that, THEN you can levy this criticism.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    Assuming for a moment that atheist are the friendlier folks in general, what makes you think that people become atheists after leaving christianity behind? When taking an atheist perspective (I'm not an atheist, but I hope I can fake it well enough for a moment for the purpose of this discourse), I'd describe the shift that happens in "Western" societies as "swapping one superstition for another", not "leaving superstition behind". Or did Tarot cards, miracle healers and summoning the dead (and the like) become atheist tools and practices recently?
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? I'm not up on all the research that's been done, but we already have data on this. It's not hard to get - it's just comparing degrees of religious following with stats on things like crime, teen pregnancies etc. I remember hearing of a study (I think from pew) showing that, despite what is often claimed, the less religious countries had less crime. (I did a quick Google search but couldn't find a link) (And before anyone says correlation doesn't mean cause, I'm responding to a comment asking specifically about correlations) Here's something that came up http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-vi...
  - maaark 9y ago
    To quote Trent Reznor, "God is an excuse."
    - cat199 9y ago
      to quote King David, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." what's your point?
      - logfromblammo 9y ago
        ~King David didn't record Head Like a Hole. Your argument is invalid.~ Quotations are usually the result of either some serious distillation of individual philosophical thought beforehand, or selection pressure from those who propagate it afterward. The insertion of a quote into an argument isn't appealing to the authority of the author, but recognizing that they were the first to formulate it. It is suggesting that those currently in the discussion are reinventing the wheel. Other people have already considered the problem and published their findings in more succinct form. In this case, Reznor is apparently calling out the religious on justifying their antisocial or nonsensical behaviors with the ultimate appeal to authority: the fictional character that is better than everyone else by definition. As such, responding to one quote from a famous person with a quote from another famous person is only productive if the quote could otherwise stand alone without the attribution. To close the argument, I'll reference The Emperor's New Clothes, which is a parable that suggests children and fools are immune to the allure of sophisticated fictions. The fool wonders why he should believe in God, but he is foolish not for that doubt, but for failing to see the profit in playing along. The foolish parent tells their child that Santa Claus is not real, because they could otherwise have better-behaved children all December long. It is the same with God. What priest would admit to doubt when it is the tithes from believers that keep him warm, dry, and fed? For him, God is an excuse for freeloading upon the largesse of others. "God is dead, and no one cares; if there is a Hell, I'll see you there." --Nietzsche
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  > Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Local churches are ramping up their efforts for a local mission (instead of assuming "Christianity as default") for at least 10 years now. Those with international ties have more international staff around here, too (partly because they lack the influx of new local people). ... Besides that, American churches in particular sent missions to Europe for decades.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    I had a work acquaintance a couple years ago whose brother was on a mission trip... to California. It was considered one of the most difficult regions to work. The Jehova's witnesses and/or Mormons that famously knock on everyone's door? They're on missions in the first world. So the very religious have been doing missions in the first world for a while.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      It is my impression that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons primarily sought after people who were nominally Christian, and had their greatest success with such people. I'm not sure how successful they are with atheists, or even with Muslims.
  - taborj 9y ago
    Indeed. My church sponsors missions all over; Zimbabwe, Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc. A few years ago, we sponsored one of our elders who went on a multi-year mission to the UK.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  > For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Short answer: quite likely. There seems to be a strong correlation between a religious majority and law-making when it comes to topics that touch religious dogmas. For example, laws that make abortion illegal and not allowing same-sex marriage.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Indeed. Between war, television, and the sexual revolution, Christianity's social position of control was eroded decades ago. It's just taken a while to propagate out. This summer Ireland holds its referendum on repealing the constitutional ban on abortion. That will be a key final landmark in Western Europe. https://www.repealeight.ie/ https://www.repealeight.ie/
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Per your last paragraph. Yes, not just from the mega-evangelists like the late Billy Graham but from ordinary Christians in South Korea, for example. This has been true for a couple of decades at least.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  It may simply be an indicator that the brutal suppression of apostasy is illegal in those countries. If people have other options for social networking beyond religion, and they don't have to fear for their own safety or livelihood when abandoning their parents' religion, there isn't a whole lot that any particular religion offers that can't be obtained more cheaply from other sources. I'd expect that those who have a real need for religion will likely gravitate towards smaller cults that are more specifically tailored to their preferences. Perhaps those who would prefer to believe in aliens than in angels will become something like the Raelians, and those who prefer fairies and pixies will join an aseembly of neo-animists. No doubt the Jedi Order, Pastafarianism, Discordianism, Subgeniusism, Order of Stendarr, Cult of Cthulhu, and similar pseudo-religions will continue to enjoy the affiliation of people who want their "religion" to be fun, and somewhat ha-ha-only-serious. I think the fears over "Muslim invasion" are largely unfounded. The high religious adherence and over-median birth rate will probably attenuate within one or two generations, as the children and grandchildren of immigrants embrace liberal democracy and assimilate to their new country's native traditions. This will likely manifest earliest as homosexuals outing themselves and abandoning their parents' enclaves. A large number of people only declare a religion because of discrimination by the religious against the non-religious. Once declared non-religion becomes a significant minority, there is much less incentive to pretend. Like the article said, only the most strongly committed will remain. And then they will die off.
- benjohnson 9y ago
  >>Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Yes! As a Lutheran, I know Lutheran missionaries from Shenzhen China and Ethiopia who are here in the US. China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world, and there's more Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    > China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world Do you have any reliable information on this?
    - benjohnson 9y ago
      I don't thing there is going to be reliable information - the Christians in China keep their heads down for good reason as they've been slaughtered in the past. Here's a good explanation of how the numbers are always going to be suspect: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chinese-Christians-vary-so-much https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chin... That said, I've encountered so many devout Chinese Christians that I suspect that they numbers are higher - and given China's population, if only 15% were Christian, it would probably be the largest. I think we also have to be careful with numbers too in the west - some people say there's 200 million Christians in the US. But I suspect a lot of them just tick off the box on the survey and haven't set foot in a church for years.
gimmeDatCheddar 9y ago
I wonder why Romania isn't mentioned at all. It's part of Europe.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >I wonder why Romania isn't mentioned at all. It's part of Europe. And Italy, that besides being part of Europe is indirectly home of the Catholicism/Catholic Church.
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  The report ignores almost all of Eastern/Southeastern Europe. I don't think they can rightly make their claims about the whole of Europe based on that...Northwest/Western Europe, sure, but all of it? Countries not included: Italy, Croatia, Slovakia, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bosnia, Serbia (and Kosovo), Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Greece. Plus none of the small city states or island countries of Malta, (Iceland?) (Cyprus?). They even include Israel (not European??)
- taborj 9y ago
  Potentially it throws off the conclusions they're hoping to convey?
ed_balls 9y ago
It's about time. This mass delusion was bound to stop with the development.
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  Mass delusion is not relegated to religion.
joshuaheard 9y ago
I'm glad to see religion go, but I'm afraid if we remove religion and don't replace the moral component, we will see more societal dysfunction like school shootings. We need to replace the moral teachings in the schools. I recommend a high level law class in high school, maybe combine government, law, and economics.
- pjc50 9y ago
  School shootings are a primarily American phenomenon driven by internal terrorism.
- poulsbohemian 9y ago
  IMHO, the greater loss is that of community. Religious institutions fostered social, business, and civic community. That in itself helps reinforce ethical and moral norms as you don't want to screw over your neighbor and become ostracized. Community also helps people not slip through the cracks of loneliness and mental illness. Frankly, as a kid I remember the number of people at my church who would have otherwise been unlikely to find friends or a marriage who were able to do so because church brought them together.
  - Dirlewanger 9y ago
    Yup. In Austin, churches are closing left and right due to endlessly rising property taxes. Want to know what one of them is being converted into? A co-working space.
    - Analemma_ 9y ago
      Are you sure they're not closing due to declining attendance? I cannot imagine a healthy church being forced to close because it can't get enough donations to match a quarter-percentage-point property tax increase.
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      Churches pay property tax? I'd always assumed they were exempt.
simonbarker87 9y ago
As a young(ish) British citizen I am pleased to see the UK ranks so highly in these charts. While I like many aspects of the being part of a religion, what I like is completely viable without the religious aspect. I have some good friends who are very religious and in chatting with them I can see the benefits of community, helping others and being inclusive. Their strand of Christianity seems to be very liberal and open to both change, and a variety of lifestyles and choices - it just seems, to me, such a shame that to be a part of such a positive community you have to believe in God. I don't think people need the "guiding light" of religion to live a "good" life but I do think that we could all benefit from a secular version of religious gathering, I just wish we could figure out am effective way to do so without religion. On the not praying aspect of the article, I distinctly remember the day that I stopped saying the Lord's Prayer in morning assembly and being called over aside by the Depty Head and asked "Why aren't you praying?", I replied "I don't believe in God" whilst bracing for a telling off and being forced to pray again, she simply said "Ok, if you change your mind then you can always go back to it, that's ok to" - pretty great way to deal with a 6 year old atheist.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me as well in the Netherlands. Religion united communities in the past, and without it we are at risk of becoming lonely and isolated. But of course you can't just decide to believe in whatever god(s) your local place of worship subscribes to in order to maintain the community — you'd be living a lie. And lets face it: getting rid of religion (i.e., whatever your parents subscribed to) as a pretty much required facet of your life is for the most part, good. Especially if you consider the intolerance and arbitrary rules (and the waste of a perfectly fine Sunday morning).
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Meeting with other people in your local community to do communal activity, and receive moral guidance from a learned person seems like something that would be an excellent use of a Sunday morning. Re intolerance, do you think those who were intolerant - eg of other races - in opposition to New Testament teaching (there is no Jew [local group] no Greek [foreign group], but all are equal in Christ and all Christians are bound by fraternity to honour and care for one another) will decide to no longer follow a perfunctory observance of a Christian festivals and so will suddenly become tolerant and open to other races? If the teaching of their supposed religion didn't away them what do you suppose will cause this dramatic change?
aestetix 9y ago
To me, it is always a huge red flag when an article does not properly cite the source. Here is the best I could find: "The figures are published in a report, Europe’s Young Adults and Religion, by Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary’s University in London. They are based on data from the European social survey 2014-16." No link to the actual study, which would contain useful information like methodology and sample size. And the latest data is from over a year ago. But they readily reproduce graphs, which show percentages without actual numbers, and leave out important European countries like Italy, which happens to have the Vatican. Based on this, it is a rubbish article, IMHO.
- grzm 9y ago
  If you're interested in reading the report, I found it with a quick internet search on the title and the author. Here's a link: https://s3cdn-observadorontime.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20170428/europes-young-adults-and-religions-report.pdf https://s3cdn-observadorontime.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/upl...
  - aestetix 9y ago
    Thanks! I wonder why it was so difficult for the actual journalist to include it.
pjf 9y ago
I for one as believer find phrases like "non-Christian Europe" (or "post-Christian") sad and intriguing given that European Union has its roots in Christianity and was so deeply shaped by notable Christians, incl. Robert Schuman, one of the founding fathers. I think without common beliefs it will be more difficult to keep and develop the union.
- GuiA 9y ago
  That sentiment feels... misguided? The EU is an economic and ideological construct, certainly not religious. The fact that some key figures were deeply religious is completely orthogonal to that. Ie France has been deeply secular since the late 1800s/early 1900s, long before its role as a founding EU state. The EU has “Christian roots” insomuch as Christianity has been a dominant religion in Europe, but implying that religion and the EU go together in some fundamental way is just wrong.
- n4r9 9y ago
  There is and will for a long time be a shared culture which is distinctively European. It's just becoming less focused on religion.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    But that shared culture had deep roots in Christianity. One of the more interesting questions is, without the Christianity, what will happen to the culture? (Even if you're an atheist, it's a relevant question. You don't have to go to church, but you still have to live in the culture.) And it's too soon to tell, really. The cultural habits last longer than the roots from which they grew. If the roots are gone, will the cultural habits find new roots? Will they survive without them? Or will they just slowly fade away over the next several generations?
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  We can have common beliefs independent from religion. Democracy, human rights, freedom, peace. None of these are religious.
epx 9y ago
I consider myself Christian but I quit church because it was a snake pit, and I don't believe in hell at all. I think that churches didn't keep up with the times. These days, a priest should discuss the implications of many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory, I think. Here in Brazil (probably in USA as well?) pentecostal churches seem to be reactionary congregations, people that long for the "good old family" with SAHMs and providing husbands - with some reason, because the "Brave new world" with full freedom for everyone is not exactly cozy for the dim-witted ones.
- wyager 9y ago
  > These days, a priest should discuss the implications of many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory So basically you want to replace Christianity with scientism? Let’s not - at least right now it’s still relatively easy to tell religion and quackery apart from, say, particle physics. Priests aren’t qualified to talk about the implications of hypothetical quantum models (and probably neither are you). > the "Brave new world" with full freedom for everyone is not exactly cozy for the dim-witted ones Of course, the only reason someone could like a stable, well-functioning, painstakingly evolved social model is because they’re stupid... I’m also curious why you would describe the world today as “full freedom for everyone”; that certainly doesn’t match my experience, unless your definition of “freedom” is very selective.
y0ghur7_xxx 9y ago
The report the data is taken from: https://www.stmarys.ac.uk/research/centres/benedict-xvi/docs/2018-mar-europe-young-people-report-eng.pdf https://www.stmarys.ac.uk/research/centres/benedict-xvi/docs...
vowelless 9y ago
Relatedly, I have been reading an enlightening book: The Triumph of Christianity [0]. It's a very interesting insight into why Christianity took over Europe in the first place. One of the points made is that paganism was a loose confederation of religions that didn't demand exclusivity. Christianity was an evangelical, exclusivist religion which provides a full alternative world view. However, the early Christians, the author alleges, were less educated and oppressed (non intellectuals ). While it may be good that Europe is going secular, I think without a strong, exclusivist moral ideology at the center, Europe will be susceptible to an Evangelical exclusivist ideology (Christinity 2.0). Or, as the book highlights, perhaps the population should be a lot more educated (which Europe seems to be doing well) and this education level sustained across generations. > In the UK, only 7% of young adults identify as Anglican, fewer than the 10% who categorise themselves as Catholic. Young Muslims, at 6%, are on the brink of overtaking those who consider themselves part of the country’s established church. Islam is an Evangelical exclusivist ideology and has strong state backings today. Billions of dollars are used by Islamic states to evangelize the religion. I don't think Christianity has done that in a 100 years or so. If the younger generation is more Muslim than Christian, and the majority is without an exclusivist ideology, and state backed evangelism continues, it will be interesting to see how, over generations, Muslim ideology becomes more mainstream. As a secular humanist, former Muslim, I hope we actually establish secular humanism with religious frevor (make it the state ideology) to make sure human rights and human progress is sustained. [0] https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595161200/author-traces-christianitys-path-from-forbidden-religion-to-a-triumph https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595161200/author-traces-chris...
- thevardanian 9y ago
  I honestly think that the whole oppressed conversion theory is wrong, for the most part. For most of Christian, and Islam the history was a top down conversion. Furthermore India, and Hinduism stands in stark contrast to this narrative. Especially considering the whole caste system narrative.
  - vowelless 9y ago
    The author cites an early critique of Christianity by a pagan intellectual named Celsus, who criticizes the early Christian evangelists from running away from engaging in intellectual debates. Also one thing to keep in mind is that a very small number of people were actually educated at this time. The vast majority of people were not educated, slaves, etc. He also alleges that it is possible many of the early Christian converts were women, who were shunned from the power structures and oppressed.
yters 9y ago
In some ways this may be good for Christianity, as it seems to grow best when it is an oppressed minority. On the other hand, this may not be good for Europe. Secular nations seem unable to reproduce, so will die out. Hardline atheist nations become genocidal and have no regard for human life. If the entire world were to become atheist, that could mean the end of humanity.
deleted 9y ago
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dep_b 9y ago
A lot of people don't realize they're actually still living by Christian rules. Take a look at social-democrat governments and for example their stance towards immigrants. Impossible to understand without knowing The Good Samaritan parable and other stories in that vein. It's post-Christian as in post going to church, post creationism and post hell and damnation. But it's a reduced form of Christianism nonetheless. A Dutch right-wing politician once said if you would only leave the good parts of the Koran you would have a book the size of a Donald Duck (1). Well I guess we already did that with the Bible. 1) Donald Duck is a weekly magazine of comics in some European countries. It's about 44 pages
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  The Jefferson Bible is 168 pages long. It could probably be edited down a bit further.
  - dep_b 9y ago
    168 pages of New Testament, 44 pages if you remove the fluff, hate and/or bigotry. Sounds about right!
yters 9y ago
I would like to hear a clear articulation why a secular or atheist has good reason to believe there is a moral standard they should live by. I've never heard of such a thing. Mostly it is just handwaving that "everyone knows it's good to be tolerant and kind." History would suggest otherwise.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
  Like most moral arguments then, religious or otherwise? Pretty much everyone starts with the conclusion they want and then engages the rationalization engine in their mind to work backwards. Religion doesn't offer any better a basis than anything else, otherwise we probably wouldn't have so many religious groups, often claiming to believe in the same God, fighting each other would we?
  - yters 9y ago
    Most major religions have the same core moral beliefs, and similar justifications. They fight each other because they think the other religion is undermining the moral code.
- n4r9 9y ago
  I've found by experience - some of it very painful and transformative - that if I live according to certain moral standards then I'm more fulfilled and happy with myself. Call it a kind of long-term hedonistic justification, if you like.
  - yters 9y ago
    How do you know that will work for anyone else? Why believe it is an objective moral order? On the other hand, if you do believe it is a moral objective order, how is that different than what religions teach?
    - n4r9 9y ago
      I don't believe in an objective moral order, or that such a thing can be meaningfully defined. Your question was whether there's a good reason why an atheist should live by a moral standard; I gave you mine. I don't expect, but do hope for, it to work for others; my experience is that other people are not so different to me.
teekert 9y ago
Knowledge and science diminish the (need for) faith. Nowadays when you are religious (because of the way you were raised) and you get the nagging feeling that some things just do not make sense, you go onto the internet, you read, you watch YouTube and you find that many of the things you experience make far greater sense from a scientific point of view. First we explained lightning, then biological diversity and now you can easily go online an get a feel for the size of the universe as well as the general weirdness of religious documents and how they only make sense in their own zeitgeists.
- taborj 9y ago
  Are you really implying that persons of faith are less knowledgeable than the faithless? That faith is simply the lack of knowledge? Knowledge and science do not preclude faith; indeed, the two often go hand in hand.
  - teekert 9y ago
    Yes. Putting a book like the bible which contains horrible, unethical stories (Lot and his daughters?) and paints the terrible tyrant that is the god of the old testament as a loving being above modern science is a mental state only achieved after thorough indoctrination. There is 0 evidence for the presence of a God, there is also 0 evidence which makes a Christian god more likely than a Muslim god. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. These are things you learn when reading and being honest with yourself. I was raised Christian but being a molecular biologist now, there is absolutely no use in the God theory it raises more questions than it answers, it has 0 predictive power, no evidence for it and is just plainly wrong when it comes to many details (all animals that existed 5000 years ago on 1 ark?). I see religious people mostly as victims of memes (memes in the Richard Dawkins sense), viruses of the mind. They still can be nice and honest people though.
    - palimpsests 9y ago
      Speaking of being honest with ourselves, there is also zero evidence for the absence of God. So far, there's no signs of this being a debate rooted in physical evidence, it's a philosophical question.
unknown_apostle 9y ago
This is a disastrous state of affairs, even if you don't believe in God. We are witnessing the rapid destruction of a cultural heritage that has co-evolved together with the European peoples and even their secular institutions for at least 16 centuries. It's like deciding to cut some organ out of your body just because you don't understand its clinical function (so it must have no function) and because it was involved in some disease a few years ago (so it must be something fundamentally bad). I marvel at the arrogance, the sheer recklessness of this negligence. Unlike the neglect of beautiful piece of nature, or the neglect of healthy eating habits, I can't see right now how this disaster will be reverted.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Most young Europeans don't think that Christian practice is useful or relevant. They're not bulldozing churches or burning books, they're just deciding not to participate in something that they see as archaic. If the churches want to survive as living institutions rather than relics of history, they need to make the case for their survival. They need to put forward a coherent, plausible answer as to why going to church is the best use of a Sunday morning. Indifference is actually the best case scenario for European churches. In Ireland, the Catholic church is widely regarded as little more than a criminal conspiracy. The church has done practically nothing to change that perception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Ho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Chi...
  - unknown_apostle 9y ago
    Agree mostly with your answer. 20 centuries of Christianity has been reduced to a caricature. Most people don't even understand what has been given up. It's all persecution, corrupt popes, hatred for science, opium for the masses, child molestation and the flying spaghetti monster. Like you mention: being active in a church community in the country where I live, will induce flippant jokes at best and real hostility at worst. I'm also tempted to look at the clergy. They seem to have lost a certain kind of "fighting spirit" and focus on avoiding controversy. Modern masses are spineless and devoid of flavor or a sense of history. It sometimes feels like they hired f*cking Nickelback or the marketing board of the Disney Corporation to advise them on liturgical reform. (Except Nickelback and Disney sell and they don't...) The cultural loss of all this is imho enormous. It's not just stuff like being part of an active community that includes the broadest possible cross section of the population (across class, age, wealth, profession, personal interests, ...). Or the weekly ritual of this community, the gentle but firm reminder that we're all mortal and that we should at least try to live the good life. It's also more mundane stuff like the feasts, the fasts, the saints, the pilgrimages (basically an entire village hiking to a nearby basilica), the processions, the choirs, the maintenance of beautifully decorated popular chapels in the middle of fields, all the local cults and customs, some of which probably even predated Christianity, etc. These things gave local places a lot of flavor and it's all gone in a few short years... Once again, I don't even think you need to believe in God to appreciate all of this wealth. Some day, its loss will be greatly lamented.
nolite 9y ago
Thank God!
adultSwim 9y ago
Good riddance

95 points by neverminder 9y ago

I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice, although it certainly looks like that's the way it's going. But let's be clear: This is not shocking or unexpected. One of the primary reasons why young adults nowadays are not religious is because their parents, even if they were nominally religious, did not raise them as active members of their faith. And in many cases, _their_ parents only made a half-hearted effort, or tried to off-load the task onto parochial schools without reinforcing the faith at home. So that's basically three generations of decline, covering roughly 60 years. And when a trend has been going on that long, the results should not be a surprise to anyone. One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Another interesting question is how Christianity and other faiths will respond, in terms of evangelization. Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries?

russian_bot 9y ago
I think the majority of the evangelism will move to places where there isn't a traditional evangelical movement. Some of the fastest growing conversion efforts in my belief system (Pentecostal) has been in Africa and Asia.
jerf 9y ago
"I think the shifts have been so rapid that we'll really need to wait a generation or two before we can say that some of these countries have fully cast off religious practice," Christianity is not the only religion. On the generational time scale, Europe (considered as a geography) may be trading Christianity for Islam.
- gumby 9y ago
  That is of course possible but I think more likely the same reasons people are ignoring christianity will cause people in the same environments to ignore other religions. I could get into what I think those reasons are but that could open an HN flame war, so unless there's a followup comment on the topic I won't get into it.
- checkyoursudo 9y ago
  I would be super surprised if young muslims were any different than young christians and young-everything-elses in this regard. The increase in islam in europe is primarily from an influx of muslim immigrants. On the generational time scale, you can probably expect their children to become accustomed to universal culture[0] just like the rest of europe (and north america, and probably everywhere eventually). Because of continued migration, Islam will probably increase in absolute numbers for a while yet. But I doubt it will ever become dominant in regions where it is not already dominant. Being targets of missionaries from, e.g., Africa or South America (if they're more religious than EU/NA? I don't know?) would be a really interesting (to me) idea. Again, I'd be surprised. But interesting nonetheless! [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim. It has to be either a hostile takeover (think Egyptians and Copts, Lebanon and christians, or any other kind of religion-based cleansings) or it will be two communities. Muslim and post-christians. (And proponents of religious tolerance have already promised us that no hostile takeover is ever possible, didn't they?)
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    > Islam as is has very little desirability to convert for non-Muslim The successful pitch of a certain variant of Islam seems to be "structure": That it tells you what to do and what not to do down to the tiniest minutiae (and it tells you that it's desirable that everybody sticks to the same set of rules, and if necessary, is made to do so). For people who are overwhelmed by the many degrees of freedom in some western societies, that seems to look like a safety net: The most active radical islamists in Germany are converts.
pmarreck 9y ago
> One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Oh yeah. And you won't have to wait several decades to find correlations, either. At least as far as violent crime is concerned, the answer seems to be "things will get better": https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be-criminals-than-theists https://www.quora.com/Are-atheists-more-or-less-likely-to-be... (quora link, but many references cited)
- jawns 9y ago
  You don't see any confounding variables there?
  - pmarreck 9y ago
    Please explain the confounding variables present across multiple sources of this information, especially given that the predominant religion is (by design) supposed to influence, and be a hallmark of approved/condoned, behavior. I've heard "ethnic/racial homogeneity" oft-referenced as a criticism, but you can't just say that- you have to show that homogeneity is separately correlated with reduced crime, without regard to religious orientation. Once you do that, THEN you can levy this criticism.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  Assuming for a moment that atheist are the friendlier folks in general, what makes you think that people become atheists after leaving christianity behind? When taking an atheist perspective (I'm not an atheist, but I hope I can fake it well enough for a moment for the purpose of this discourse), I'd describe the shift that happens in "Western" societies as "swapping one superstition for another", not "leaving superstition behind". Or did Tarot cards, miracle healers and summoning the dead (and the like) become atheist tools and practices recently?
jamesrcole 9y ago
> One interesting question, which will only begin to be answered in the next several decades, is whether the rates of religious adherence within these European countries correlate with anything. For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? I'm not up on all the research that's been done, but we already have data on this. It's not hard to get - it's just comparing degrees of religious following with stats on things like crime, teen pregnancies etc. I remember hearing of a study (I think from pew) showing that, despite what is often claimed, the less religious countries had less crime. (I did a quick Google search but couldn't find a link) (And before anyone says correlation doesn't mean cause, I'm responding to a comment asking specifically about correlations) Here's something that came up http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-vi...
- maaark 9y ago
  To quote Trent Reznor, "God is an excuse."
  - cat199 9y ago
    to quote King David, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." what's your point?
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      ~King David didn't record Head Like a Hole. Your argument is invalid.~ Quotations are usually the result of either some serious distillation of individual philosophical thought beforehand, or selection pressure from those who propagate it afterward. The insertion of a quote into an argument isn't appealing to the authority of the author, but recognizing that they were the first to formulate it. It is suggesting that those currently in the discussion are reinventing the wheel. Other people have already considered the problem and published their findings in more succinct form. In this case, Reznor is apparently calling out the religious on justifying their antisocial or nonsensical behaviors with the ultimate appeal to authority: the fictional character that is better than everyone else by definition. As such, responding to one quote from a famous person with a quote from another famous person is only productive if the quote could otherwise stand alone without the attribution. To close the argument, I'll reference The Emperor's New Clothes, which is a parable that suggests children and fools are immune to the allure of sophisticated fictions. The fool wonders why he should believe in God, but he is foolish not for that doubt, but for failing to see the profit in playing along. The foolish parent tells their child that Santa Claus is not real, because they could otherwise have better-behaved children all December long. It is the same with God. What priest would admit to doubt when it is the tithes from believers that keep him warm, dry, and fed? For him, God is an excuse for freeloading upon the largesse of others. "God is dead, and no one cares; if there is a Hell, I'll see you there." --Nietzsche
pgeorgi 9y ago
> Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Local churches are ramping up their efforts for a local mission (instead of assuming "Christianity as default") for at least 10 years now. Those with international ties have more international staff around here, too (partly because they lack the influx of new local people). ... Besides that, American churches in particular sent missions to Europe for decades.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I had a work acquaintance a couple years ago whose brother was on a mission trip... to California. It was considered one of the most difficult regions to work. The Jehova's witnesses and/or Mormons that famously knock on everyone's door? They're on missions in the first world. So the very religious have been doing missions in the first world for a while.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    It is my impression that the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons primarily sought after people who were nominally Christian, and had their greatest success with such people. I'm not sure how successful they are with atheists, or even with Muslims.
- taborj 9y ago
  Indeed. My church sponsors missions all over; Zimbabwe, Brazil, Honduras, Mexico, etc. A few years ago, we sponsored one of our elders who went on a multi-year mission to the UK.
Freak_NL 9y ago
> For instance, do countries with low religious adherence have any sort of markedly different character or outcomes than countries with high religious adherence? Short answer: quite likely. There seems to be a strong correlation between a religious majority and law-making when it comes to topics that touch religious dogmas. For example, laws that make abortion illegal and not allowing same-sex marriage.
pjc50 9y ago
Indeed. Between war, television, and the sexual revolution, Christianity's social position of control was eroded decades ago. It's just taken a while to propagate out. This summer Ireland holds its referendum on repealing the constitutional ban on abortion. That will be a key final landmark in Western Europe. https://www.repealeight.ie/ https://www.repealeight.ie/
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Per your last paragraph. Yes, not just from the mega-evangelists like the late Billy Graham but from ordinary Christians in South Korea, for example. This has been true for a couple of decades at least.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
logfromblammo 9y ago
It may simply be an indicator that the brutal suppression of apostasy is illegal in those countries. If people have other options for social networking beyond religion, and they don't have to fear for their own safety or livelihood when abandoning their parents' religion, there isn't a whole lot that any particular religion offers that can't be obtained more cheaply from other sources. I'd expect that those who have a real need for religion will likely gravitate towards smaller cults that are more specifically tailored to their preferences. Perhaps those who would prefer to believe in aliens than in angels will become something like the Raelians, and those who prefer fairies and pixies will join an aseembly of neo-animists. No doubt the Jedi Order, Pastafarianism, Discordianism, Subgeniusism, Order of Stendarr, Cult of Cthulhu, and similar pseudo-religions will continue to enjoy the affiliation of people who want their "religion" to be fun, and somewhat ha-ha-only-serious. I think the fears over "Muslim invasion" are largely unfounded. The high religious adherence and over-median birth rate will probably attenuate within one or two generations, as the children and grandchildren of immigrants embrace liberal democracy and assimilate to their new country's native traditions. This will likely manifest earliest as homosexuals outing themselves and abandoning their parents' enclaves. A large number of people only declare a religion because of discrimination by the religious against the non-religious. Once declared non-religion becomes a significant minority, there is much less incentive to pretend. Like the article said, only the most strongly committed will remain. And then they will die off.
benjohnson 9y ago
>>Is first-world Europe now a "foreign mission," in the way that third-world countries were in the previous centuries? Yes! As a Lutheran, I know Lutheran missionaries from Shenzhen China and Ethiopia who are here in the US. China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world, and there's more Lutherans in Ethiopia than in the United States.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  > China is (unoficially) close to being the largest Christian country in the world Do you have any reliable information on this?
  - benjohnson 9y ago
    I don't thing there is going to be reliable information - the Christians in China keep their heads down for good reason as they've been slaughtered in the past. Here's a good explanation of how the numbers are always going to be suspect: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chinese-Christians-vary-so-much https://www.quora.com/Why-do-estimates-of-the-number-of-Chin... That said, I've encountered so many devout Chinese Christians that I suspect that they numbers are higher - and given China's population, if only 15% were Christian, it would probably be the largest. I think we also have to be careful with numbers too in the west - some people say there's 200 million Christians in the US. But I suspect a lot of them just tick off the box on the survey and haven't set foot in a church for years.

gimmeDatCheddar 9y ago

I wonder why Romania isn't mentioned at all. It's part of Europe.

jaclaz 9y ago
>I wonder why Romania isn't mentioned at all. It's part of Europe. And Italy, that besides being part of Europe is indirectly home of the Catholicism/Catholic Church.
24gttghh 9y ago
The report ignores almost all of Eastern/Southeastern Europe. I don't think they can rightly make their claims about the whole of Europe based on that...Northwest/Western Europe, sure, but all of it? Countries not included: Italy, Croatia, Slovakia, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bosnia, Serbia (and Kosovo), Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Greece. Plus none of the small city states or island countries of Malta, (Iceland?) (Cyprus?). They even include Israel (not European??)
taborj 9y ago
Potentially it throws off the conclusions they're hoping to convey?

ed_balls 9y ago

It's about time. This mass delusion was bound to stop with the development.

toasterlovin 9y ago
Mass delusion is not relegated to religion.

joshuaheard 9y ago

I'm glad to see religion go, but I'm afraid if we remove religion and don't replace the moral component, we will see more societal dysfunction like school shootings. We need to replace the moral teachings in the schools. I recommend a high level law class in high school, maybe combine government, law, and economics.

pjc50 9y ago
School shootings are a primarily American phenomenon driven by internal terrorism.
poulsbohemian 9y ago
IMHO, the greater loss is that of community. Religious institutions fostered social, business, and civic community. That in itself helps reinforce ethical and moral norms as you don't want to screw over your neighbor and become ostracized. Community also helps people not slip through the cracks of loneliness and mental illness. Frankly, as a kid I remember the number of people at my church who would have otherwise been unlikely to find friends or a marriage who were able to do so because church brought them together.
- Dirlewanger 9y ago
  Yup. In Austin, churches are closing left and right due to endlessly rising property taxes. Want to know what one of them is being converted into? A co-working space.
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    Are you sure they're not closing due to declining attendance? I cannot imagine a healthy church being forced to close because it can't get enough donations to match a quarter-percentage-point property tax increase.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    Churches pay property tax? I'd always assumed they were exempt.

simonbarker87 9y ago

As a young(ish) British citizen I am pleased to see the UK ranks so highly in these charts. While I like many aspects of the being part of a religion, what I like is completely viable without the religious aspect. I have some good friends who are very religious and in chatting with them I can see the benefits of community, helping others and being inclusive. Their strand of Christianity seems to be very liberal and open to both change, and a variety of lifestyles and choices - it just seems, to me, such a shame that to be a part of such a positive community you have to believe in God. I don't think people need the "guiding light" of religion to live a "good" life but I do think that we could all benefit from a secular version of religious gathering, I just wish we could figure out am effective way to do so without religion. On the not praying aspect of the article, I distinctly remember the day that I stopped saying the Lord's Prayer in morning assembly and being called over aside by the Depty Head and asked "Why aren't you praying?", I replied "I don't believe in God" whilst bracing for a telling off and being forced to pray again, she simply said "Ok, if you change your mind then you can always go back to it, that's ok to" - pretty great way to deal with a 6 year old atheist.

Freak_NL 9y ago
Yeah that pretty much sums it up for me as well in the Netherlands. Religion united communities in the past, and without it we are at risk of becoming lonely and isolated. But of course you can't just decide to believe in whatever god(s) your local place of worship subscribes to in order to maintain the community — you'd be living a lie. And lets face it: getting rid of religion (i.e., whatever your parents subscribed to) as a pretty much required facet of your life is for the most part, good. Especially if you consider the intolerance and arbitrary rules (and the waste of a perfectly fine Sunday morning).
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Meeting with other people in your local community to do communal activity, and receive moral guidance from a learned person seems like something that would be an excellent use of a Sunday morning. Re intolerance, do you think those who were intolerant - eg of other races - in opposition to New Testament teaching (there is no Jew [local group] no Greek [foreign group], but all are equal in Christ and all Christians are bound by fraternity to honour and care for one another) will decide to no longer follow a perfunctory observance of a Christian festivals and so will suddenly become tolerant and open to other races? If the teaching of their supposed religion didn't away them what do you suppose will cause this dramatic change?

aestetix 9y ago

To me, it is always a huge red flag when an article does not properly cite the source. Here is the best I could find: "The figures are published in a report, Europe’s Young Adults and Religion, by Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary’s University in London. They are based on data from the European social survey 2014-16." No link to the actual study, which would contain useful information like methodology and sample size. And the latest data is from over a year ago. But they readily reproduce graphs, which show percentages without actual numbers, and leave out important European countries like Italy, which happens to have the Vatican. Based on this, it is a rubbish article, IMHO.

grzm 9y ago
If you're interested in reading the report, I found it with a quick internet search on the title and the author. Here's a link: https://s3cdn-observadorontime.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/20170428/europes-young-adults-and-religions-report.pdf https://s3cdn-observadorontime.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/upl...
- aestetix 9y ago
  Thanks! I wonder why it was so difficult for the actual journalist to include it.

pjf 9y ago

I for one as believer find phrases like "non-Christian Europe" (or "post-Christian") sad and intriguing given that European Union has its roots in Christianity and was so deeply shaped by notable Christians, incl. Robert Schuman, one of the founding fathers. I think without common beliefs it will be more difficult to keep and develop the union.

GuiA 9y ago
That sentiment feels... misguided? The EU is an economic and ideological construct, certainly not religious. The fact that some key figures were deeply religious is completely orthogonal to that. Ie France has been deeply secular since the late 1800s/early 1900s, long before its role as a founding EU state. The EU has “Christian roots” insomuch as Christianity has been a dominant religion in Europe, but implying that religion and the EU go together in some fundamental way is just wrong.
n4r9 9y ago
There is and will for a long time be a shared culture which is distinctively European. It's just becoming less focused on religion.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  But that shared culture had deep roots in Christianity. One of the more interesting questions is, without the Christianity, what will happen to the culture? (Even if you're an atheist, it's a relevant question. You don't have to go to church, but you still have to live in the culture.) And it's too soon to tell, really. The cultural habits last longer than the roots from which they grew. If the roots are gone, will the cultural habits find new roots? Will they survive without them? Or will they just slowly fade away over the next several generations?
robotresearcher 9y ago
We can have common beliefs independent from religion. Democracy, human rights, freedom, peace. None of these are religious.

epx 9y ago

I consider myself Christian but I quit church because it was a snake pit, and I don't believe in hell at all. I think that churches didn't keep up with the times. These days, a priest should discuss the implications of many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory, I think. Here in Brazil (probably in USA as well?) pentecostal churches seem to be reactionary congregations, people that long for the "good old family" with SAHMs and providing husbands - with some reason, because the "Brave new world" with full freedom for everyone is not exactly cozy for the dim-witted ones.

wyager 9y ago
> These days, a priest should discuss the implications of many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory So basically you want to replace Christianity with scientism? Let’s not - at least right now it’s still relatively easy to tell religion and quackery apart from, say, particle physics. Priests aren’t qualified to talk about the implications of hypothetical quantum models (and probably neither are you). > the "Brave new world" with full freedom for everyone is not exactly cozy for the dim-witted ones Of course, the only reason someone could like a stable, well-functioning, painstakingly evolved social model is because they’re stupid... I’m also curious why you would describe the world today as “full freedom for everyone”; that certainly doesn’t match my experience, unless your definition of “freedom” is very selective.

y0ghur7_xxx 9y ago

The report the data is taken from: https://www.stmarys.ac.uk/research/centres/benedict-xvi/docs/2018-mar-europe-young-people-report-eng.pdf https://www.stmarys.ac.uk/research/centres/benedict-xvi/docs...

vowelless 9y ago

Relatedly, I have been reading an enlightening book: The Triumph of Christianity [0]. It's a very interesting insight into why Christianity took over Europe in the first place. One of the points made is that paganism was a loose confederation of religions that didn't demand exclusivity. Christianity was an evangelical, exclusivist religion which provides a full alternative world view. However, the early Christians, the author alleges, were less educated and oppressed (non intellectuals ). While it may be good that Europe is going secular, I think without a strong, exclusivist moral ideology at the center, Europe will be susceptible to an Evangelical exclusivist ideology (Christinity 2.0). Or, as the book highlights, perhaps the population should be a lot more educated (which Europe seems to be doing well) and this education level sustained across generations. > In the UK, only 7% of young adults identify as Anglican, fewer than the 10% who categorise themselves as Catholic. Young Muslims, at 6%, are on the brink of overtaking those who consider themselves part of the country’s established church. Islam is an Evangelical exclusivist ideology and has strong state backings today. Billions of dollars are used by Islamic states to evangelize the religion. I don't think Christianity has done that in a 100 years or so. If the younger generation is more Muslim than Christian, and the majority is without an exclusivist ideology, and state backed evangelism continues, it will be interesting to see how, over generations, Muslim ideology becomes more mainstream. As a secular humanist, former Muslim, I hope we actually establish secular humanism with religious frevor (make it the state ideology) to make sure human rights and human progress is sustained. [0] https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595161200/author-traces-christianitys-path-from-forbidden-religion-to-a-triumph https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/595161200/author-traces-chris...

thevardanian 9y ago
I honestly think that the whole oppressed conversion theory is wrong, for the most part. For most of Christian, and Islam the history was a top down conversion. Furthermore India, and Hinduism stands in stark contrast to this narrative. Especially considering the whole caste system narrative.
- vowelless 9y ago
  The author cites an early critique of Christianity by a pagan intellectual named Celsus, who criticizes the early Christian evangelists from running away from engaging in intellectual debates. Also one thing to keep in mind is that a very small number of people were actually educated at this time. The vast majority of people were not educated, slaves, etc. He also alleges that it is possible many of the early Christian converts were women, who were shunned from the power structures and oppressed.

yters 9y ago

In some ways this may be good for Christianity, as it seems to grow best when it is an oppressed minority. On the other hand, this may not be good for Europe. Secular nations seem unable to reproduce, so will die out. Hardline atheist nations become genocidal and have no regard for human life. If the entire world were to become atheist, that could mean the end of humanity.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dep_b 9y ago

A lot of people don't realize they're actually still living by Christian rules. Take a look at social-democrat governments and for example their stance towards immigrants. Impossible to understand without knowing The Good Samaritan parable and other stories in that vein. It's post-Christian as in post going to church, post creationism and post hell and damnation. But it's a reduced form of Christianism nonetheless. A Dutch right-wing politician once said if you would only leave the good parts of the Koran you would have a book the size of a Donald Duck (1). Well I guess we already did that with the Bible. 1) Donald Duck is a weekly magazine of comics in some European countries. It's about 44 pages

logfromblammo 9y ago
The Jefferson Bible is 168 pages long. It could probably be edited down a bit further.
- dep_b 9y ago
  168 pages of New Testament, 44 pages if you remove the fluff, hate and/or bigotry. Sounds about right!

yters 9y ago

I would like to hear a clear articulation why a secular or atheist has good reason to believe there is a moral standard they should live by. I've never heard of such a thing. Mostly it is just handwaving that "everyone knows it's good to be tolerant and kind." History would suggest otherwise.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
Like most moral arguments then, religious or otherwise? Pretty much everyone starts with the conclusion they want and then engages the rationalization engine in their mind to work backwards. Religion doesn't offer any better a basis than anything else, otherwise we probably wouldn't have so many religious groups, often claiming to believe in the same God, fighting each other would we?
- yters 9y ago
  Most major religions have the same core moral beliefs, and similar justifications. They fight each other because they think the other religion is undermining the moral code.
n4r9 9y ago
I've found by experience - some of it very painful and transformative - that if I live according to certain moral standards then I'm more fulfilled and happy with myself. Call it a kind of long-term hedonistic justification, if you like.
- yters 9y ago
  How do you know that will work for anyone else? Why believe it is an objective moral order? On the other hand, if you do believe it is a moral objective order, how is that different than what religions teach?
  - n4r9 9y ago
    I don't believe in an objective moral order, or that such a thing can be meaningfully defined. Your question was whether there's a good reason why an atheist should live by a moral standard; I gave you mine. I don't expect, but do hope for, it to work for others; my experience is that other people are not so different to me.

teekert 9y ago

Knowledge and science diminish the (need for) faith. Nowadays when you are religious (because of the way you were raised) and you get the nagging feeling that some things just do not make sense, you go onto the internet, you read, you watch YouTube and you find that many of the things you experience make far greater sense from a scientific point of view. First we explained lightning, then biological diversity and now you can easily go online an get a feel for the size of the universe as well as the general weirdness of religious documents and how they only make sense in their own zeitgeists.

taborj 9y ago
Are you really implying that persons of faith are less knowledgeable than the faithless? That faith is simply the lack of knowledge? Knowledge and science do not preclude faith; indeed, the two often go hand in hand.
- teekert 9y ago
  Yes. Putting a book like the bible which contains horrible, unethical stories (Lot and his daughters?) and paints the terrible tyrant that is the god of the old testament as a loving being above modern science is a mental state only achieved after thorough indoctrination. There is 0 evidence for the presence of a God, there is also 0 evidence which makes a Christian god more likely than a Muslim god. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. These are things you learn when reading and being honest with yourself. I was raised Christian but being a molecular biologist now, there is absolutely no use in the God theory it raises more questions than it answers, it has 0 predictive power, no evidence for it and is just plainly wrong when it comes to many details (all animals that existed 5000 years ago on 1 ark?). I see religious people mostly as victims of memes (memes in the Richard Dawkins sense), viruses of the mind. They still can be nice and honest people though.
  - palimpsests 9y ago
    Speaking of being honest with ourselves, there is also zero evidence for the absence of God. So far, there's no signs of this being a debate rooted in physical evidence, it's a philosophical question.

unknown_apostle 9y ago

This is a disastrous state of affairs, even if you don't believe in God. We are witnessing the rapid destruction of a cultural heritage that has co-evolved together with the European peoples and even their secular institutions for at least 16 centuries. It's like deciding to cut some organ out of your body just because you don't understand its clinical function (so it must have no function) and because it was involved in some disease a few years ago (so it must be something fundamentally bad). I marvel at the arrogance, the sheer recklessness of this negligence. Unlike the neglect of beautiful piece of nature, or the neglect of healthy eating habits, I can't see right now how this disaster will be reverted.

jdietrich 9y ago
Most young Europeans don't think that Christian practice is useful or relevant. They're not bulldozing churches or burning books, they're just deciding not to participate in something that they see as archaic. If the churches want to survive as living institutions rather than relics of history, they need to make the case for their survival. They need to put forward a coherent, plausible answer as to why going to church is the best use of a Sunday morning. Indifference is actually the best case scenario for European churches. In Ireland, the Catholic church is widely regarded as little more than a criminal conspiracy. The church has done practically nothing to change that perception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Ho... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Chi...
- unknown_apostle 9y ago
  Agree mostly with your answer. 20 centuries of Christianity has been reduced to a caricature. Most people don't even understand what has been given up. It's all persecution, corrupt popes, hatred for science, opium for the masses, child molestation and the flying spaghetti monster. Like you mention: being active in a church community in the country where I live, will induce flippant jokes at best and real hostility at worst. I'm also tempted to look at the clergy. They seem to have lost a certain kind of "fighting spirit" and focus on avoiding controversy. Modern masses are spineless and devoid of flavor or a sense of history. It sometimes feels like they hired f*cking Nickelback or the marketing board of the Disney Corporation to advise them on liturgical reform. (Except Nickelback and Disney sell and they don't...) The cultural loss of all this is imho enormous. It's not just stuff like being part of an active community that includes the broadest possible cross section of the population (across class, age, wealth, profession, personal interests, ...). Or the weekly ritual of this community, the gentle but firm reminder that we're all mortal and that we should at least try to live the good life. It's also more mundane stuff like the feasts, the fasts, the saints, the pilgrimages (basically an entire village hiking to a nearby basilica), the processions, the choirs, the maintenance of beautifully decorated popular chapels in the middle of fields, all the local cults and customs, some of which probably even predated Christianity, etc. These things gave local places a lot of flavor and it's all gone in a few short years... Once again, I don't even think you need to believe in God to appreciate all of this wealth. Some day, its loss will be greatly lamented.

nolite 9y ago

Thank God!

adultSwim 9y ago

Good riddance