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Yep. I’ve been explaining this stuff to friends for years. Even the most intelligent and rational dismiss it as paranoia or say, “I don’t care, I have nothing t

Yep. I’ve been explaining this stuff to friends for years. Even the most intelligent and rational dismiss it as paranoia or say, “I don’t care, I have nothing to hide anyway.”

jimmy1 9y ago
Daniel Solove eloquently states the problems with the "I have nothing to hide" argument in this famous paper now turned book https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1159&context=faculty_publications https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...
- hodl 9y ago
  I've not read t but guessing its similar to why you shouldn't speak to police without a lawyer even if "I done nothing wrong". Because you will probably say something they can use against you regardless.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them, as asking for a lawyer when they’re at your door inquiring about a missing neighborhood kid is probably counterproductive and escalates attention on you unnecessarily. It’s a fine opinion when common sense is involved. I don’t have a problem with the sentiment, just watching people who digest YouTube and shout “where’s your probable cause” at the poor guy looking for gypsy moths at the California border. (Yes, I’ve seen that on 50 in Tahoe.)
    - _jal 9y ago
      I'm pretty sure that idiots like that will be idiots no matter what advice they stumble over. But I have to say, > Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them I get what you're saying, but the point of the advice is that, in a situation to which the advice is applicable, you don't fully understand the implications of anything you may say, so your best play is to clam up and get a lawyer.
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        >your best play is to clam up and get a lawyer. // Your best play if you want to waste police time because you for some reason hate society and think helping to make it run smoothly infringes on your rights - because fuck those guys, right, they're not paying you to search for the kid you just saw walking off with Ann Ominous, why should you help. Hyperbole; but I think it illustrates the counterpoint sufficiently.
        _jal 9y ago
        > they're not paying you to search for the kid you just saw walking I said, "in a situation to which the advice is applicable". Nobody is saying leave Timmy in the well, they're talking about situations involving being detained or arrested.
    - hodl 9y ago
      I meant if you suspect you are a suspect
- shradha408 9y ago
  I like this essay but got irritated by the number of times 'nothing to hide' phrase is used.
jimmies 9y ago
I know many people who care but they think they can "outsmart" Facebook by having workarounds for its annoying and evil nature. They do it by not giving it their permission to access the address book, location, nude pictures, etc. They told me to "just deny Facebook's request to..." It bugged the fuck out of me and I wrote about it last year [1]. They think they can befriend an evil person who they know too well would stab them in the back. They think that they are stronger and more intelligent than the evil friend. The proper answer is that if you think a friend of yours is a shitty person, then don't befriend them anymore. If you don't like what the fuck Facebook does, then just don't have a Facebook account. It's an inconvenience in the short term because you can't talk to some of your friends, sure. But if you have it and invent those workarounds and ask me to install that piece of shit so I can talk to you, then you complicit with it and make my life shitty too. When I realized that, I realized that's exactly what Stallman meant when he talked about proprietary software -- which is what he doesn't agree with. 1: http://www.tnhh.net/posts/just.html http://www.tnhh.net/posts/just.html
oblib 9y ago
The flip side to "nothing to hide" is akin to John Hancock signing his name big and bold because you want others to know what "you" think and are doing. That is not at all the same as not caring. It's using the platform with intent. I see a lot of that on FB. I don't agree with the intent all the time but I do pay attention to it and often use it with purpose myself.
sgustard 9y ago
I probably have things to hide, but: I ignore ads. I don't click on political news. I pretty much ignore everything except my friends' vacation photos. Please tell me in concrete terms a specific downside to staying on Facebook. What's the non-tinfoil hat scenario that I am naively ignoring? Wake up and my bank account is drained, or what?
- newman8r 9y ago
  There's a collective impact on society for which everyone participating has some amount shared responsibility. It's up to the individual to decide if that impact is a positive or a negative one.
- DrScump 9y ago
  I ignore ads. I don't click on political news... But Facebook harvests whatever cookies and trackers it can out of your browser, even for activity outside of and unrelated to Facebook itself. You will be productized in every possible way. (For one example, haven't you seen Amazon ads in your feed for items you may gave looked at/for strictly external to your Facebook tab?)
- gaius 9y ago
  I ignore ads. I don't click on political news. You don't have to click it. For example I have zero interest in celebrities or reality TV, I've never clicked a link or read an article about them. Yet even I know who Kanye Kardashian is, and that he's married to (or is? * ) a woman with an enormous backside. it's pervasive, it becomes part of the background and what you consider "normal". I absolutely guarantee that despite never having clicked a link about Trump, just having that link there and seeing the headline, will have influenced you, same as it would anyone. * No don't tell me, I don't care
  - hycaria 9y ago
    Did you see that through facebook ... ? Friend feeds ? Liked pages ? I've hidden pretty much everyone, only keeping a few music or art pages, only go on facebook maybe once a week anyways. I use messenger a lot though. I hate typing on phones so not many texts, and whatsapp web interface is not that great (and it's not as widely used by my friends, and it's owned by facebook anyways so what's the difference ?). Actually a fun detail is that I entered facebook under the wrong gender : I'm labelled as a male though I'm female. When I looked at my targeted center of interests I had the most average things ever ie sports and such (which I don't follow -at all-). Like, really, you have nothing better on me ? So I don't care about my data (I don't think I put a lot out there anyways) or whatever and I've yet to be convinced how it matters at all in the grand scheme of the universe.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hycaria 9y ago
I don't put that much data out, but I don't mind being profiled. I like being suggested music that I'm susceptible to like based on other people. I think it's fine if one can infer out of my lifestyle that I would be interested in x or warn for risks of y. What is wrong with it ? I'm probably no statistical anomaly, I don't mind being part of some artificial cluster somewhere, helping having a more accurate portrayal of a type of people. I am not interesting enough that anyone will come for me specifically anyways. And from time to time, I see worried and lamenting people like here, and I still don't get it.
- Tarks 9y ago
  > I am not interesting enough that anyone will come for me specifically anyways. No single raindrop believes it's responsible for the storm. They don't care about you specifically, if you can profile people accurately they have a much easier time of adjusting perspectives for your own aims. You've likely already seen the results of this with the latest American election. It's gone far beyond getting you to buy more music and they're just warming up.
  - hycaria 9y ago
    And ? Did the world crash, the USA's GDP sink, did people starve and die by thousands ? No, nothing happened.
    - Tannic 9y ago
      The world did crash in 2008, and people did die and starve. The surveillance regime and the consolidation of media together are being used to trick normals into saying exactly what you said in your comment, even as our environment crashes before our eyes and our governments pursue war all over the world, and as finance and corporatism continue to dismantle and exostentially threaten the global economy. Just because it isn’t in your backyard doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. The networks of power are diverse and enormous, and the surveillance regime is only in its infancy. It’s role has increased dramatically in only the last five years and that will only continue, particularly as we see the consolidation of power on the internet(behemoths like google and amazon who have sidestepped all reasonable notions of antitrust will continue to grow and their gravity only gains strength).
kabes 9y ago
When people say "I have nothing to hide anyway." ask them about their weirdest sexual fantasy and their credit card number. Usually then they realize they might have somethings they want to keep private.
- hoppelhase 9y ago
  Or just ask "Nothing to hide from whom?"
usrusr 9y ago
Everybody's got something to hide, just not from everybody else. As much as we share with friends what we would not share with strangers, we have things that we would enthusiastically share with strangers that we would never share with our friends. Something similar applies here: everybody would absolutely do mind if someone in their personal sphere could browse their search term history, but the same data as one of billions of profiles on some corporate datacenter does not appear in that threat model. Ultimately, "nothing to hide" is short for "nothing to hide from them", and the main difference is wether the possibility of leaks is taken into account or not.

Yep. I’ve been explaining this stuff to friends for years. Even the most intelligent and rational dismiss it as paranoia or say, “I don’t care, I have nothing to hide anyway.”

jimmy1 9y ago

Daniel Solove eloquently states the problems with the "I have nothing to hide" argument in this famous paper now turned book https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1159&context=faculty_publications https://scholarship.law.gwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

hodl 9y ago
I've not read t but guessing its similar to why you shouldn't speak to police without a lawyer even if "I done nothing wrong". Because you will probably say something they can use against you regardless.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them, as asking for a lawyer when they’re at your door inquiring about a missing neighborhood kid is probably counterproductive and escalates attention on you unnecessarily. It’s a fine opinion when common sense is involved. I don’t have a problem with the sentiment, just watching people who digest YouTube and shout “where’s your probable cause” at the poor guy looking for gypsy moths at the California border. (Yes, I’ve seen that on 50 in Tahoe.)
  - _jal 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure that idiots like that will be idiots no matter what advice they stumble over. But I have to say, > Which is a dangerous family of opinions to apply without fully understanding them I get what you're saying, but the point of the advice is that, in a situation to which the advice is applicable, you don't fully understand the implications of anything you may say, so your best play is to clam up and get a lawyer.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      >your best play is to clam up and get a lawyer. // Your best play if you want to waste police time because you for some reason hate society and think helping to make it run smoothly infringes on your rights - because fuck those guys, right, they're not paying you to search for the kid you just saw walking off with Ann Ominous, why should you help. Hyperbole; but I think it illustrates the counterpoint sufficiently.
      - _jal 9y ago
        > they're not paying you to search for the kid you just saw walking I said, "in a situation to which the advice is applicable". Nobody is saying leave Timmy in the well, they're talking about situations involving being detained or arrested.
  - hodl 9y ago
    I meant if you suspect you are a suspect
shradha408 9y ago
I like this essay but got irritated by the number of times 'nothing to hide' phrase is used.

jimmies 9y ago

I know many people who care but they think they can "outsmart" Facebook by having workarounds for its annoying and evil nature. They do it by not giving it their permission to access the address book, location, nude pictures, etc. They told me to "just deny Facebook's request to..." It bugged the fuck out of me and I wrote about it last year [1]. They think they can befriend an evil person who they know too well would stab them in the back. They think that they are stronger and more intelligent than the evil friend. The proper answer is that if you think a friend of yours is a shitty person, then don't befriend them anymore. If you don't like what the fuck Facebook does, then just don't have a Facebook account. It's an inconvenience in the short term because you can't talk to some of your friends, sure. But if you have it and invent those workarounds and ask me to install that piece of shit so I can talk to you, then you complicit with it and make my life shitty too. When I realized that, I realized that's exactly what Stallman meant when he talked about proprietary software -- which is what he doesn't agree with. 1: http://www.tnhh.net/posts/just.html http://www.tnhh.net/posts/just.html

oblib 9y ago

The flip side to "nothing to hide" is akin to John Hancock signing his name big and bold because you want others to know what "you" think and are doing. That is not at all the same as not caring. It's using the platform with intent. I see a lot of that on FB. I don't agree with the intent all the time but I do pay attention to it and often use it with purpose myself.

sgustard 9y ago

I probably have things to hide, but: I ignore ads. I don't click on political news. I pretty much ignore everything except my friends' vacation photos. Please tell me in concrete terms a specific downside to staying on Facebook. What's the non-tinfoil hat scenario that I am naively ignoring? Wake up and my bank account is drained, or what?

newman8r 9y ago
There's a collective impact on society for which everyone participating has some amount shared responsibility. It's up to the individual to decide if that impact is a positive or a negative one.
DrScump 9y ago
I ignore ads. I don't click on political news... But Facebook harvests whatever cookies and trackers it can out of your browser, even for activity outside of and unrelated to Facebook itself. You will be productized in every possible way. (For one example, haven't you seen Amazon ads in your feed for items you may gave looked at/for strictly external to your Facebook tab?)
gaius 9y ago
I ignore ads. I don't click on political news. You don't have to click it. For example I have zero interest in celebrities or reality TV, I've never clicked a link or read an article about them. Yet even I know who Kanye Kardashian is, and that he's married to (or is? * ) a woman with an enormous backside. it's pervasive, it becomes part of the background and what you consider "normal". I absolutely guarantee that despite never having clicked a link about Trump, just having that link there and seeing the headline, will have influenced you, same as it would anyone. * No don't tell me, I don't care
- hycaria 9y ago
  Did you see that through facebook ... ? Friend feeds ? Liked pages ? I've hidden pretty much everyone, only keeping a few music or art pages, only go on facebook maybe once a week anyways. I use messenger a lot though. I hate typing on phones so not many texts, and whatsapp web interface is not that great (and it's not as widely used by my friends, and it's owned by facebook anyways so what's the difference ?). Actually a fun detail is that I entered facebook under the wrong gender : I'm labelled as a male though I'm female. When I looked at my targeted center of interests I had the most average things ever ie sports and such (which I don't follow -at all-). Like, really, you have nothing better on me ? So I don't care about my data (I don't think I put a lot out there anyways) or whatever and I've yet to be convinced how it matters at all in the grand scheme of the universe.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

hycaria 9y ago

I don't put that much data out, but I don't mind being profiled. I like being suggested music that I'm susceptible to like based on other people. I think it's fine if one can infer out of my lifestyle that I would be interested in x or warn for risks of y. What is wrong with it ? I'm probably no statistical anomaly, I don't mind being part of some artificial cluster somewhere, helping having a more accurate portrayal of a type of people. I am not interesting enough that anyone will come for me specifically anyways. And from time to time, I see worried and lamenting people like here, and I still don't get it.

Tarks 9y ago
> I am not interesting enough that anyone will come for me specifically anyways. No single raindrop believes it's responsible for the storm. They don't care about you specifically, if you can profile people accurately they have a much easier time of adjusting perspectives for your own aims. You've likely already seen the results of this with the latest American election. It's gone far beyond getting you to buy more music and they're just warming up.
- hycaria 9y ago
  And ? Did the world crash, the USA's GDP sink, did people starve and die by thousands ? No, nothing happened.
  - Tannic 9y ago
    The world did crash in 2008, and people did die and starve. The surveillance regime and the consolidation of media together are being used to trick normals into saying exactly what you said in your comment, even as our environment crashes before our eyes and our governments pursue war all over the world, and as finance and corporatism continue to dismantle and exostentially threaten the global economy. Just because it isn’t in your backyard doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. The networks of power are diverse and enormous, and the surveillance regime is only in its infancy. It’s role has increased dramatically in only the last five years and that will only continue, particularly as we see the consolidation of power on the internet(behemoths like google and amazon who have sidestepped all reasonable notions of antitrust will continue to grow and their gravity only gains strength).

kabes 9y ago

When people say "I have nothing to hide anyway." ask them about their weirdest sexual fantasy and their credit card number. Usually then they realize they might have somethings they want to keep private.

hoppelhase 9y ago
Or just ask "Nothing to hide from whom?"

usrusr 9y ago

Everybody's got something to hide, just not from everybody else. As much as we share with friends what we would not share with strangers, we have things that we would enthusiastically share with strangers that we would never share with our friends. Something similar applies here: everybody would absolutely do mind if someone in their personal sphere could browse their search term history, but the same data as one of billions of profiles on some corporate datacenter does not appear in that threat model. Ultimately, "nothing to hide" is short for "nothing to hide from them", and the main difference is wether the possibility of leaks is taken into account or not.