4 ms·

The data embedded in the blockchain can only be extracted using custom tools. Custom tools can be used to extract any data from almost any other kind of other

by VMG 9y ago

The data embedded in the blockchain can only be extracted using custom tools. Custom tools can be used to extract any data from almost any other kind of other data, using steganography. You can extract illegal data from innocuous looking tweets, using the right tools.

zaarn 9y ago
If the extraction tools do not exceed the cryptographic complexity of a OTP cipher, I doubt that any court will accept that excuse. It's the difference between taking random bits of your computer to assemble illegal content vs taking one specific set of bits and applying mere transforms to then to retrieve illegal content.
arcticfox 9y ago
That's a bit of a stretch. There's no reason to obfuscate anything (unless miners are actively and intentionally censoring content) and it'd be straightforward to make a browser. For example, I don't think it's a defense for the owner of a website to say "this horrible illegal content I'm sharing is only accessible via a custom tool that downloads and decodes image data from me...such as a web browser."
- VMG 9y ago
  You can make a browser extension extracting illegal data from innocuous images on twitter
  - OscarCunningham 9y ago
    Only by using your own stock of illegal data.
    - otherwiseguy 9y ago
      Bingo.
    - VMG 9y ago
      that's not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography
      - mlindner 9y ago
        You don't seem to understand what Steganography is and how it works. Perhaps you should read that article. You cannot produce illegal information out of non-illegal information without having that illegal information somewhere else to use as a key.
        VMG 9y ago
        https://i.imgur.com/tn6dav0.png https://i.imgur.com/tn6dav0.png the "key" is a very simple algorithm, that is obviously not illegal
        SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        But in that case the second image was already stored in (low significance portions) the first. A truly innocuous image won't have such stored data.
        VMG 9y ago
        That not important. My point is that you could unknowningly store illegal data, without blockchain being involved. Anyone sharing the data by torrenting an apparently legal file, reposting an image, or quoting a text could redistribute potentially illegal data. This problem is not constrained to blockchain.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > My point is that you could unknowningly store illegal data, without blockchain being involved. The problem with blockchain is that a full node will be knowingly storing and distributing illegal content (or at least is likely to held to be, once the chain is widely known to be infested with such content.) The only way to.stop is to stop storing and interacting with the chain. With a torrent, you could be unknowingly doing so, but very easily stop doing so with the particular content once you discovered it (without abandoning torrents altogether), which may or not be a complete bar to liability but would probably result in generally more lenient treatment in any situation other than the government is targeting you and the actual offense is pure pretext, in which case the content hardly matters.
  - Tyrannosaur 9y ago
    You keep saying this as if it isn't beside the point. Creating illegal content by extracting specific digits of pi or rearranging specific pixels of normal images is completely different than taking already-illegal content and uploading it to somewhere it can never be deleted without compromising a lot of other stuff. Your arguments seem to be of the nature of "information is information; you can't suppress it and you can't make it illegal" but that's not really what this discussion is about.
simias 9y ago
If said tweets were reported they would (probably?) be deleted. I'm not sure the "custom tool" defense would really work, you could say the same thing for warez on usenet or even simple jpegs and videos, you need special codecs to view them. Furthermore even plain text embedded in the chain might be enough to get you in trouble in some jurisdiction if it contains hate speech, personal info or harassment material for instance. The problem with the blockchain is actually its greatest strength: it's immutable. If somebody reports a block containing child porn there's no way to remove it without compromising the blockchain's integrity.
- VMG 9y ago
  What's meant by "containing"? Regular wallet software doesn't allow access to anything besides transaction data. You won't be able to view any text or images. The number "Pi" contains all hate speech and other illegal content imaginable.
  - simias 9y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, I'm not sure what will and won't hold up in court. I think the main problem would be if you operate a node that's not just a consumer but also uploads blocks, it could be argued that you distribute the potentially infringing content. At this point your ability to actually view the content yourself is moot. You're basically operating a peer-to-peer network that can be used to distribute arbitrary data. >The number "Pi" contains all hate speech and other illegal content imaginable. That's irrelevant. If you don't think so try downloading child porn, get caught and argue that "it's just decimals of Pi!". Report back with results.
  - lopmotr 9y ago
    Just to clarify because this is widely misunderstood - hate speech is not a crime in America. Though it is in other western countries like Germany and New Zealand.
zone411 9y ago
As per my other post here, you don't need anything more than a file to hex converter like http://tomeko.net/online_tools/hex_to_file.php?lang=en http://tomeko.net/online_tools/hex_to_file.php?lang=en and the ability to calculate the gas cost to post on the Ethereum blockchain (second largest coin by market cap and transaction volume).
wongarsu 9y ago
Sure, tweets can contain illegal content. That illegal content can be steganographically hidden in innocent images. What makes all this legal for twitter is that as soon as they are aware of illegal content, they delete it. It doesn't matter how well hidden it is, what matters are their actions once they know. That's the problem with the blockchain: there is no mechanism for deleting data (well, there's pruning, but that's meant to save storage space after processing all the data).

by VMG 9y ago

zaarn 9y ago

If the extraction tools do not exceed the cryptographic complexity of a OTP cipher, I doubt that any court will accept that excuse. It's the difference between taking random bits of your computer to assemble illegal content vs taking one specific set of bits and applying mere transforms to then to retrieve illegal content.

arcticfox 9y ago

That's a bit of a stretch. There's no reason to obfuscate anything (unless miners are actively and intentionally censoring content) and it'd be straightforward to make a browser. For example, I don't think it's a defense for the owner of a website to say "this horrible illegal content I'm sharing is only accessible via a custom tool that downloads and decodes image data from me...such as a web browser."

VMG 9y ago
You can make a browser extension extracting illegal data from innocuous images on twitter
- OscarCunningham 9y ago
  Only by using your own stock of illegal data.
  - otherwiseguy 9y ago
    Bingo.
  - VMG 9y ago
    that's not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography
    - mlindner 9y ago
      You don't seem to understand what Steganography is and how it works. Perhaps you should read that article. You cannot produce illegal information out of non-illegal information without having that illegal information somewhere else to use as a key.
      - VMG 9y ago
        https://i.imgur.com/tn6dav0.png https://i.imgur.com/tn6dav0.png the "key" is a very simple algorithm, that is obviously not illegal
        SAI_Peregrinus 9y ago
        But in that case the second image was already stored in (low significance portions) the first. A truly innocuous image won't have such stored data.
        VMG 9y ago
        That not important. My point is that you could unknowningly store illegal data, without blockchain being involved. Anyone sharing the data by torrenting an apparently legal file, reposting an image, or quoting a text could redistribute potentially illegal data. This problem is not constrained to blockchain.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > My point is that you could unknowningly store illegal data, without blockchain being involved. The problem with blockchain is that a full node will be knowingly storing and distributing illegal content (or at least is likely to held to be, once the chain is widely known to be infested with such content.) The only way to.stop is to stop storing and interacting with the chain. With a torrent, you could be unknowingly doing so, but very easily stop doing so with the particular content once you discovered it (without abandoning torrents altogether), which may or not be a complete bar to liability but would probably result in generally more lenient treatment in any situation other than the government is targeting you and the actual offense is pure pretext, in which case the content hardly matters.
- Tyrannosaur 9y ago
  You keep saying this as if it isn't beside the point. Creating illegal content by extracting specific digits of pi or rearranging specific pixels of normal images is completely different than taking already-illegal content and uploading it to somewhere it can never be deleted without compromising a lot of other stuff. Your arguments seem to be of the nature of "information is information; you can't suppress it and you can't make it illegal" but that's not really what this discussion is about.

simias 9y ago

If said tweets were reported they would (probably?) be deleted. I'm not sure the "custom tool" defense would really work, you could say the same thing for warez on usenet or even simple jpegs and videos, you need special codecs to view them. Furthermore even plain text embedded in the chain might be enough to get you in trouble in some jurisdiction if it contains hate speech, personal info or harassment material for instance. The problem with the blockchain is actually its greatest strength: it's immutable. If somebody reports a block containing child porn there's no way to remove it without compromising the blockchain's integrity.

VMG 9y ago
What's meant by "containing"? Regular wallet software doesn't allow access to anything besides transaction data. You won't be able to view any text or images. The number "Pi" contains all hate speech and other illegal content imaginable.
- simias 9y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, I'm not sure what will and won't hold up in court. I think the main problem would be if you operate a node that's not just a consumer but also uploads blocks, it could be argued that you distribute the potentially infringing content. At this point your ability to actually view the content yourself is moot. You're basically operating a peer-to-peer network that can be used to distribute arbitrary data. >The number "Pi" contains all hate speech and other illegal content imaginable. That's irrelevant. If you don't think so try downloading child porn, get caught and argue that "it's just decimals of Pi!". Report back with results.
- lopmotr 9y ago
  Just to clarify because this is widely misunderstood - hate speech is not a crime in America. Though it is in other western countries like Germany and New Zealand.

zone411 9y ago

As per my other post here, you don't need anything more than a file to hex converter like http://tomeko.net/online_tools/hex_to_file.php?lang=en http://tomeko.net/online_tools/hex_to_file.php?lang=en and the ability to calculate the gas cost to post on the Ethereum blockchain (second largest coin by market cap and transaction volume).

wongarsu 9y ago

Sure, tweets can contain illegal content. That illegal content can be steganographically hidden in innocent images. What makes all this legal for twitter is that as soon as they are aware of illegal content, they delete it. It doesn't matter how well hidden it is, what matters are their actions once they know. That's the problem with the blockchain: there is no mechanism for deleting data (well, there's pruning, but that's meant to save storage space after processing all the data).