10 ms·

Fallout 3 in Fallout 4 mod cancelled due to voice acting copyright

105 points by ChrisSD 9y ago

Raphmedia 9y ago
I don't understand why they don't simply have those parts of the game be without any voice acting. Plenty of games don't have voice acting. There's nothing wrong with a mod not having it.
- danvasquez29 9y ago
  all of the direct dialogue has subtitles built into the UI anyway. I can't remember if that's an option for the radio, but if it is (or could be implemented), then this seems like a really weird reason to cancel.
- bighi 9y ago
  I agree. Particularly because the voice acting is usually just distracting you from what you're reading. There you are, reading the fifth sentence, and the voice is still slowly speaking the beginning of the second one.
cypher543 9y ago
Could they not have required the user to own a copy of Fallout 3 and then extract the needed sound files from the original installation on first launch? Then the copyrighted works wouldn't need to be distributed with the mod itself.
- sli 9y ago
  This is usually how it's done. See, for example, OpenMW. It extracts the resources from your already-installed copy of Morrowind during the installation. E: Also, some total conversion mods will make a copy of your game installation, then install itself into that copy. I think (it's been a while since I've played them) that Nehrim (Oblivion) and Enderal (Skyrim), both from SureAI, do this.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    (Though OpenMW isn't a mod. It's a reimplementation of the engine.) Bathesda also had some very strange requirements for the OpenMW folks when they were in contact[1]. Namely they didn't want them to show OpenMW working on Android (because Bathesda wanted to port it themselves?) nor did they want them to support the XBox version of the game. I doubt that Bathesda actually had the right to add those requirements to a project that is a from-scratch reimplementation of their game engine, but that's the current status. [1]: https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails
- monocasa 9y ago
  Apparently that was their original idea, which was rejected by Bethesda's legal team. https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/844t22/some_of_the_misconceptions_regarding_the_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/844t22/some_of_the... At this point I'm fairly convinced that Bethesda is going to announce a 10th anniversary release of Fallout 3 at E3 and don't want the competition.
  - JasonSage 9y ago
    They did a 5th anniversary release of Oblivion, so we know anniversary editions are something on their radar. I would not be surprised if this was indeed the case.
  - serf 9y ago
    "idea was rejected by (offended partys') legal team" should never be the conclusion of something like this; but I can understand not wanting the trouble for a work of passion. In fact, working on a mod for a game -- and then getting legally threatened by the owning company of that mod platform -- would entirely drain my enthusiasm or passion for the game/company/platform. I hope the mod-makers feel similarly.
    - sbarre 9y ago
      If you read the mod maker's actual note, you'll see that they were not "threatened" but rather they entered into a dialogue with a team they respect and want to maintain good relations with (video game mods are often a path to employment in the industry), so they chose to halt development when Bethesda said they couldn't allow it. These conversations can be civil and respectful, even if the outcome is not ideal.
  - ChrisSD 9y ago
    I could be wrong but it sounds like Bethesda don't own rights to the voice acting. They only licensed it for the purpose of FO3. Outside of that they can't grant or deny anyone permission to use it. Presumably there is either another corporation who owns the VA rights or the individual artists own the rights. There were some big names involved so I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
- nickynickell 9y ago
  Supposedly some file formats have changed between Fallout 3 and 4 so you'd need to convert said files as well. Not exactly an insurmountable technical hurdle. There is at least one other similar project that isn't shutting down. The rule with these things is typically "If you make us give you an answer about if you can do it, it will be no."
  - averagemodder 9y ago
    I don't know if Skyoblivion ever managed to write a robust solution for translating the codebase from the old scripting language to Papyrus, and I can see why it might be a huge hurdle for modding teams.
    - nickynickell 9y ago
      To clarify, I was only talking about audio formats. Not automagically converting everything to run on the new engine. Doing that would kind of be missing the point. There is a similar project redoing New Vegas in Fallout 4 (F4NV - I'm not affiliated with the project, just a fan snooping on their progress from time to time) and one of the really important things is that they're making their vision of what NV could be. This means all new meshes, textures, and code - not the old content updated to run on the new engine. I've written some code for fiddling around with the plugins the engine uses (.esp/.esm/.esl files). The basic structure hasn't changed, but a lot of the records and fields have. Automatically converting them well enough to not need manual tidying up would be a pretty arduous task. Converting the old code into papyrus would be as well.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Or what about removing the restricted sound files entirely and allowing the user to provide their own, which could presumably come from some fan version. Then again, I guess releasing your "redo" of some voice actor's soundtrack violates copyright too? (Like, I couldn't release a set of files of me doing Darth Vader's lines from A New Hope?)
redwolf2 9y ago
Just rely on an extern mod to integrate the voice for the mod and continue.
arielweisberg 9y ago
I saw this go by and was a bit confused. Normally the way this is done they don't supply the content from the original game you have to provide your own copy which you then mod to use the newer version of the engine. You might need a copy of both the old game and new game to legally have everything you need to produce the modified version. I don't see what claim a copyright holder has against either the user of the mod or developer of the mod. I thought this was one of those first sale doctrine things where once you buy it's yours to use modulo restrictions against redistribution and EULA related things with questionable legality.
- mikeash 9y ago
  They don’t need a claim, they just need to convince the modders they do, or at least that they’d bankrupt the modders in court anyway.
  - Semaphor 9y ago
    Which makes me wonder "Why?" Beth is not exactly mod unfriendly as they pretty much need them to make their games playable.
- jerf 9y ago
  "I don't see what claim a copyright holder has against either the user of the mod or developer of the mod." I've examined this problem and been keeping track of it for nearly two decades now, keeping an eye out for legal resolution of it, and to the best of my knowledge there is still bupkis on this front legally. Even before we consider EULAs, it is legally quite clear that they could not take the two copyrighted products Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 and distribute the resulting new work. (And what EULA have you ever seen for a AAA game that would explicitly permit that?) It is completely legally unclear whether it is OK to release a tool that the end-user nominally uses to do the work themselves. On the one hand, there are certain arguments that this should be OK; I'm sure in the next few hours a few dozen of these will pour in. (Though I will say the most obvious error they make in general is to grossly overstate the degree of ownership the end-user has over the content, and, again, that's even before considering EULA clauses.) On the other hand, if these arguments are accepted, then it allows a clear path to completely circumvent the aforementioned clear legal result that the end product could not be distributed. This is generally frowned on by the common law legal system, cynical comments to the contrary. It is also in a very real sense arguable that the user, who is putatively putting these two works together, can't really be said to be doing so when the sum total of their contribution is "the user clicked a button"; how can they be said to be responsible? It's pretty obvious that button-clicker can't be said to hold any copyright rights over the result, because "clicked a button" certainly doesn't raise to the level of creative input. It can be easily argued that in a legal sense the program is still the responsibility of the original combinind developer, and that the developer is still as responsible for the output as if they were directly distributing the output, what with the end results being (potentially at least) literally bit-for-bit identical. I remain unaware of even the slightest hint of legal guidance in this area. And please note I'm not in this message trying to advocate either way; I'm simply discussing the situation. (I have opinions, but they are incomprehensible until you first understand that there is a problem at all.)
jMyles 9y ago
Increasingly, I'm wanting to live in a place where there is no IP law whatsoever. Is there such a place on earth at the moment?
- aaronbrethorst 9y ago
  Experts and activists are raising concern over the lack of proper intellectual property laws in South Sudan, as the world’s newest nation’s admission into the East Africa Community (EAC) spurs anticipation of increased investment. https://www.ip-watch.org/2016/03/08/as-south-sudan-joins-east-african-community-some-experts-worry-over-its-ip-laws/ https://www.ip-watch.org/2016/03/08/as-south-sudan-joins-eas... #1 on this list is South Sudan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_S... South Sudan also happens to be #14 on this list: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-most-dangerous-places/south-sudan/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-most...
  - pluma 9y ago
    Putting it this way creates the impression that a lack of IP laws directly results in political instability and danger to people's lives. That's incredibly disingenious. The reason South Sudan is such a horrible place is that it only recently gained independence and has been caught up in its own civil wars pretty much constantly. The reason its IP laws are practically non-existent is probably that it just hasn't been a practical concern for the young nation yet.
    - wetmore 9y ago
      I did not read it that way; I read the comment as saying "here's a place you could move that has no IP laws, but you probably don't want to move there for this other reason".
- krzrak 9y ago
  Most probably these places are North Korea, Somalia and such, and you don't want to live there.
Feniks 9y ago
Its why dual audio is often missing and why undubs are illegal.
tbunt 9y ago
It's a shame, but projects like Fallout 3 in Fallout 4 just wouldn't exist in the first place without copyright law. Food for thought.
HeyWolfey 9y ago
Hi. I'm the voice of Nightmare from Soul Caliber 3. Need talent?
bg4 9y ago
Why can't I just configure the location of my Fallout 3 installation?
kevlar1818 9y ago
Why are some words capitalized? Is there a hidden message here or something?
- loeg 9y ago
  - --- .-. - ..- .-. .
  - pcunite 9y ago
    .. / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / .-. . -- .- .. -. / --.- ..- .. . - / .- -. -.. / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / .-.. --- --- -.- / --- -. / ..-. .-. --- -- / -- -.-- / -.. .-- . .-.. .-.. .. -. --. / .--. .-.. .- -.-. . --..-- / .-.. .. -.- . / ... .... .. -- -- . .-. .. -. --. / .... . .- - / .. -. / - .... . / ... ..- -. ... .... .. -. . --..-- / .-.. .. -.- . / .- / -.-. .-.. --- ..- -.. / --- ..-. / -.. . .-- / .. -. / - .... . / .... . .- - / --- ..-. / .... .- .-. ...- . ... - .-.-.-
squarefoot 9y ago
Looks like the perfect use for this software. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDBlZu__Xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDBlZu__Xk Surely it needs some good work to make it more realistic, but we're not that far. Should they use it without advertising whose celebrity is being imitated, could they still be sued?
tzakrajs 9y ago
How about they release it without the voice acting?
- madaxe_again 9y ago
  Or even just redo it. I can't imagine it would be that onerous a task to crowdsource it out to like-minded enthusiasts - and some of the VA in FO3 was hilariously bad (I'm thinking of do-over lines, mispronunciations, monotonous delivery of some dialogue), so what's the worst that can happen? I'd happily sit there and crank out a few thousand lines of dialogue.
- averagemodder 9y ago
  Good question. But realistically, a mod like that would also need an installer software able to pull and convert also: textures, meshes, game plugin data, scripts (and perhaps some other misc stuff I overlooked), or creatively recreate some of these from scratch, or have permission from Bethesda (against the company policy, I am afraid).
- tzs 9y ago
  Release it with silence for the voice acting, and include the script and a utility that lets you and your friends record yourselves doing the voice acting and inserts that into your installation. Make a way for people to distribute their versions of the voice acting for others to use.
michaelmrose 9y ago
Because its challenging to discuss the merits of different thought processes regarding IP and fair use with people without boring them to death I recommend responding by just telling people that Bethesda makes buggy games and not to buy them.
- erikb 9y ago
  If there would be an alternative to the Fallout series I would buy it. But there aren't. The closest I can think of is the newer Shadowrun series, but that is not open world enough to be played more than 2 times.
ransom1538 9y ago
If you ever get the urge to go into gaming, take a rock and thrust it into your eye. When games are canceled hundreds of people have wasted thousands of hours on: programming, ai, economy adjusting, art (raster + vector). Games are canceled all the time for frivolous reasons. Wasting your 20s at a game company re-writing madden football 19 with low pay and harsh hours isn't 'cool' -- it is just wasting your 20s'.
- mpd 9y ago
  > When games are canceled hundreds of people have wasted thousands of hours on: games, ai, art (raster + vector). I don't think this is any different than the risk of working for a startup. I've worked for a number of companies in my career that no longer exist. It's really the same as far as I am seeing.
  - ransom1538 9y ago
    Yes. But you can prove "uber for cats" doesn't work with 5 people. Not 100 people, 3 years later. Canceling a game is more like a funeral.
    - mpd 9y ago
      This comes off as very dismissive of startups. Do you honestly believe they are all 5 person companies doing frivolous things?
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    Hmm, so a game developer is like a startup factory? I think the real reason he/she's hinting at is that men tend to be more passionate about games than startups. (I know several dozen young people who play board games regularly, and they include about 1.5 women).
  - erikb 9y ago
    In a start-up you usually get a significant payout on success. Do game developers also get up to a few million dollars bonus when the game is a success? I doubt that. And that is where the devs are cheated. You are paid like a normal job, but you do a start-up.
averagemodder 9y ago
It happens a lot in the modding scene, that the project team is strong in landscaping, but not so much in everything else that needs to be ported. Often they don't have software guys to code the custom tool for that, and they end up doing a lot of it manually. In case of porting F3 to F4, you have to deal with a different scripting language. So blaming it all on copyright of voice acting is a convenient excuse to sunset the project.

105 points by ChrisSD 9y ago

I don't understand why they don't simply have those parts of the game be without any voice acting. Plenty of games don't have voice acting. There's nothing wrong with a mod not having it.

danvasquez29 9y ago
all of the direct dialogue has subtitles built into the UI anyway. I can't remember if that's an option for the radio, but if it is (or could be implemented), then this seems like a really weird reason to cancel.
bighi 9y ago
I agree. Particularly because the voice acting is usually just distracting you from what you're reading. There you are, reading the fifth sentence, and the voice is still slowly speaking the beginning of the second one.

cypher543 9y ago

Could they not have required the user to own a copy of Fallout 3 and then extract the needed sound files from the original installation on first launch? Then the copyrighted works wouldn't need to be distributed with the mod itself.

sli 9y ago
This is usually how it's done. See, for example, OpenMW. It extracts the resources from your already-installed copy of Morrowind during the installation. E: Also, some total conversion mods will make a copy of your game installation, then install itself into that copy. I think (it's been a while since I've played them) that Nehrim (Oblivion) and Enderal (Skyrim), both from SureAI, do this.
- cyphar 9y ago
  (Though OpenMW isn't a mod. It's a reimplementation of the engine.) Bathesda also had some very strange requirements for the OpenMW folks when they were in contact[1]. Namely they didn't want them to show OpenMW working on Android (because Bathesda wanted to port it themselves?) nor did they want them to support the XBox version of the game. I doubt that Bathesda actually had the right to add those requirements to a project that is a from-scratch reimplementation of their game engine, but that's the current status. [1]: https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails https://wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=Bethesda_Emails
monocasa 9y ago
Apparently that was their original idea, which was rejected by Bethesda's legal team. https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/844t22/some_of_the_misconceptions_regarding_the_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/844t22/some_of_the... At this point I'm fairly convinced that Bethesda is going to announce a 10th anniversary release of Fallout 3 at E3 and don't want the competition.
- JasonSage 9y ago
  They did a 5th anniversary release of Oblivion, so we know anniversary editions are something on their radar. I would not be surprised if this was indeed the case.
- serf 9y ago
  "idea was rejected by (offended partys') legal team" should never be the conclusion of something like this; but I can understand not wanting the trouble for a work of passion. In fact, working on a mod for a game -- and then getting legally threatened by the owning company of that mod platform -- would entirely drain my enthusiasm or passion for the game/company/platform. I hope the mod-makers feel similarly.
  - sbarre 9y ago
    If you read the mod maker's actual note, you'll see that they were not "threatened" but rather they entered into a dialogue with a team they respect and want to maintain good relations with (video game mods are often a path to employment in the industry), so they chose to halt development when Bethesda said they couldn't allow it. These conversations can be civil and respectful, even if the outcome is not ideal.
- ChrisSD 9y ago
  I could be wrong but it sounds like Bethesda don't own rights to the voice acting. They only licensed it for the purpose of FO3. Outside of that they can't grant or deny anyone permission to use it. Presumably there is either another corporation who owns the VA rights or the individual artists own the rights. There were some big names involved so I'm not sure if that makes a difference.
nickynickell 9y ago
Supposedly some file formats have changed between Fallout 3 and 4 so you'd need to convert said files as well. Not exactly an insurmountable technical hurdle. There is at least one other similar project that isn't shutting down. The rule with these things is typically "If you make us give you an answer about if you can do it, it will be no."
- averagemodder 9y ago
  I don't know if Skyoblivion ever managed to write a robust solution for translating the codebase from the old scripting language to Papyrus, and I can see why it might be a huge hurdle for modding teams.
  - nickynickell 9y ago
    To clarify, I was only talking about audio formats. Not automagically converting everything to run on the new engine. Doing that would kind of be missing the point. There is a similar project redoing New Vegas in Fallout 4 (F4NV - I'm not affiliated with the project, just a fan snooping on their progress from time to time) and one of the really important things is that they're making their vision of what NV could be. This means all new meshes, textures, and code - not the old content updated to run on the new engine. I've written some code for fiddling around with the plugins the engine uses (.esp/.esm/.esl files). The basic structure hasn't changed, but a lot of the records and fields have. Automatically converting them well enough to not need manual tidying up would be a pretty arduous task. Converting the old code into papyrus would be as well.
SilasX 9y ago
Or what about removing the restricted sound files entirely and allowing the user to provide their own, which could presumably come from some fan version. Then again, I guess releasing your "redo" of some voice actor's soundtrack violates copyright too? (Like, I couldn't release a set of files of me doing Darth Vader's lines from A New Hope?)

redwolf2 9y ago

Just rely on an extern mod to integrate the voice for the mod and continue.

arielweisberg 9y ago

I saw this go by and was a bit confused. Normally the way this is done they don't supply the content from the original game you have to provide your own copy which you then mod to use the newer version of the engine. You might need a copy of both the old game and new game to legally have everything you need to produce the modified version. I don't see what claim a copyright holder has against either the user of the mod or developer of the mod. I thought this was one of those first sale doctrine things where once you buy it's yours to use modulo restrictions against redistribution and EULA related things with questionable legality.

mikeash 9y ago
They don’t need a claim, they just need to convince the modders they do, or at least that they’d bankrupt the modders in court anyway.
- Semaphor 9y ago
  Which makes me wonder "Why?" Beth is not exactly mod unfriendly as they pretty much need them to make their games playable.
jerf 9y ago
"I don't see what claim a copyright holder has against either the user of the mod or developer of the mod." I've examined this problem and been keeping track of it for nearly two decades now, keeping an eye out for legal resolution of it, and to the best of my knowledge there is still bupkis on this front legally. Even before we consider EULAs, it is legally quite clear that they could not take the two copyrighted products Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 and distribute the resulting new work. (And what EULA have you ever seen for a AAA game that would explicitly permit that?) It is completely legally unclear whether it is OK to release a tool that the end-user nominally uses to do the work themselves. On the one hand, there are certain arguments that this should be OK; I'm sure in the next few hours a few dozen of these will pour in. (Though I will say the most obvious error they make in general is to grossly overstate the degree of ownership the end-user has over the content, and, again, that's even before considering EULA clauses.) On the other hand, if these arguments are accepted, then it allows a clear path to completely circumvent the aforementioned clear legal result that the end product could not be distributed. This is generally frowned on by the common law legal system, cynical comments to the contrary. It is also in a very real sense arguable that the user, who is putatively putting these two works together, can't really be said to be doing so when the sum total of their contribution is "the user clicked a button"; how can they be said to be responsible? It's pretty obvious that button-clicker can't be said to hold any copyright rights over the result, because "clicked a button" certainly doesn't raise to the level of creative input. It can be easily argued that in a legal sense the program is still the responsibility of the original combinind developer, and that the developer is still as responsible for the output as if they were directly distributing the output, what with the end results being (potentially at least) literally bit-for-bit identical. I remain unaware of even the slightest hint of legal guidance in this area. And please note I'm not in this message trying to advocate either way; I'm simply discussing the situation. (I have opinions, but they are incomprehensible until you first understand that there is a problem at all.)

jMyles 9y ago

Increasingly, I'm wanting to live in a place where there is no IP law whatsoever. Is there such a place on earth at the moment?

aaronbrethorst 9y ago
Experts and activists are raising concern over the lack of proper intellectual property laws in South Sudan, as the world’s newest nation’s admission into the East Africa Community (EAC) spurs anticipation of increased investment. https://www.ip-watch.org/2016/03/08/as-south-sudan-joins-east-african-community-some-experts-worry-over-its-ip-laws/ https://www.ip-watch.org/2016/03/08/as-south-sudan-joins-eas... #1 on this list is South Sudan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_S... South Sudan also happens to be #14 on this list: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-most-dangerous-places/south-sudan/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-most...
- pluma 9y ago
  Putting it this way creates the impression that a lack of IP laws directly results in political instability and danger to people's lives. That's incredibly disingenious. The reason South Sudan is such a horrible place is that it only recently gained independence and has been caught up in its own civil wars pretty much constantly. The reason its IP laws are practically non-existent is probably that it just hasn't been a practical concern for the young nation yet.
  - wetmore 9y ago
    I did not read it that way; I read the comment as saying "here's a place you could move that has no IP laws, but you probably don't want to move there for this other reason".
krzrak 9y ago
Most probably these places are North Korea, Somalia and such, and you don't want to live there.

Feniks 9y ago

Its why dual audio is often missing and why undubs are illegal.

tbunt 9y ago

It's a shame, but projects like Fallout 3 in Fallout 4 just wouldn't exist in the first place without copyright law. Food for thought.

HeyWolfey 9y ago

Hi. I'm the voice of Nightmare from Soul Caliber 3. Need talent?

bg4 9y ago

Why can't I just configure the location of my Fallout 3 installation?

kevlar1818 9y ago

Why are some words capitalized? Is there a hidden message here or something?

loeg 9y ago
- --- .-. - ..- .-. .
- pcunite 9y ago
  .. / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / .-. . -- .- .. -. / --.- ..- .. . - / .- -. -.. / .-- .. .-.. .-.. / .-.. --- --- -.- / --- -. / ..-. .-. --- -- / -- -.-- / -.. .-- . .-.. .-.. .. -. --. / .--. .-.. .- -.-. . --..-- / .-.. .. -.- . / ... .... .. -- -- . .-. .. -. --. / .... . .- - / .. -. / - .... . / ... ..- -. ... .... .. -. . --..-- / .-.. .. -.- . / .- / -.-. .-.. --- ..- -.. / --- ..-. / -.. . .-- / .. -. / - .... . / .... . .- - / --- ..-. / .... .- .-. ...- . ... - .-.-.-

squarefoot 9y ago

Looks like the perfect use for this software. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDBlZu__Xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDBlZu__Xk Surely it needs some good work to make it more realistic, but we're not that far. Should they use it without advertising whose celebrity is being imitated, could they still be sued?

tzakrajs 9y ago

How about they release it without the voice acting?

madaxe_again 9y ago
Or even just redo it. I can't imagine it would be that onerous a task to crowdsource it out to like-minded enthusiasts - and some of the VA in FO3 was hilariously bad (I'm thinking of do-over lines, mispronunciations, monotonous delivery of some dialogue), so what's the worst that can happen? I'd happily sit there and crank out a few thousand lines of dialogue.
averagemodder 9y ago
Good question. But realistically, a mod like that would also need an installer software able to pull and convert also: textures, meshes, game plugin data, scripts (and perhaps some other misc stuff I overlooked), or creatively recreate some of these from scratch, or have permission from Bethesda (against the company policy, I am afraid).
tzs 9y ago
Release it with silence for the voice acting, and include the script and a utility that lets you and your friends record yourselves doing the voice acting and inserts that into your installation. Make a way for people to distribute their versions of the voice acting for others to use.

michaelmrose 9y ago

Because its challenging to discuss the merits of different thought processes regarding IP and fair use with people without boring them to death I recommend responding by just telling people that Bethesda makes buggy games and not to buy them.

erikb 9y ago
If there would be an alternative to the Fallout series I would buy it. But there aren't. The closest I can think of is the newer Shadowrun series, but that is not open world enough to be played more than 2 times.

ransom1538 9y ago

If you ever get the urge to go into gaming, take a rock and thrust it into your eye. When games are canceled hundreds of people have wasted thousands of hours on: programming, ai, economy adjusting, art (raster + vector). Games are canceled all the time for frivolous reasons. Wasting your 20s at a game company re-writing madden football 19 with low pay and harsh hours isn't 'cool' -- it is just wasting your 20s'.

mpd 9y ago
> When games are canceled hundreds of people have wasted thousands of hours on: games, ai, art (raster + vector). I don't think this is any different than the risk of working for a startup. I've worked for a number of companies in my career that no longer exist. It's really the same as far as I am seeing.
- ransom1538 9y ago
  Yes. But you can prove "uber for cats" doesn't work with 5 people. Not 100 people, 3 years later. Canceling a game is more like a funeral.
  - mpd 9y ago
    This comes off as very dismissive of startups. Do you honestly believe they are all 5 person companies doing frivolous things?
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  Hmm, so a game developer is like a startup factory? I think the real reason he/she's hinting at is that men tend to be more passionate about games than startups. (I know several dozen young people who play board games regularly, and they include about 1.5 women).
- erikb 9y ago
  In a start-up you usually get a significant payout on success. Do game developers also get up to a few million dollars bonus when the game is a success? I doubt that. And that is where the devs are cheated. You are paid like a normal job, but you do a start-up.

averagemodder 9y ago

It happens a lot in the modding scene, that the project team is strong in landscaping, but not so much in everything else that needs to be ported. Often they don't have software guys to code the custom tool for that, and they end up doing a lot of it manually. In case of porting F3 to F4, you have to deal with a different scripting language. So blaming it all on copyright of voice acting is a convenient excuse to sunset the project.