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How is the electricity used by the ev produced? Electricity is not clean or dirty per se, as it is only a method of energy transport (well, it is a bit dirty p

How is the electricity used by the ev produced? Electricity is not clean or dirty per se, as it is only a method of energy transport (well, it is a bit dirty per se, since it has losses - which can obviously be discarded if it is used to connect clean production facilities and replace dirty energy production)

NickM 9y ago
It doesn't matter. One big power plant is so much more efficient than a million little ICE cars that you typically end up with lower emissions and less pollution from EVs even if 100% of your electricity is from coal. That said, China - and most of the world - is on an exponential growth curve for renewables right now. It will take a long time for the world to switch over to EVs, so we're better off starting now, regardless of the current emission profiles for electricity generation.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Beijing has a separate lottery for EVs also, so if you want a car now, you can wait for a few years for a typical ICE one, or you can get one tomorrow if you don't mind EV. Tesla S's are selling like hotcakes accordingly.
  - twoodfin 9y ago
    Out of curiousity, how high up in the party would I have to be to get an ICE tomorrow instead of in a few years?
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Who knows. Since almost everyone has party connections in Beijing, it has become difficult to game the system that way (it would be useless otherwise).
- abledon 9y ago
  what about the manufacturing processes for EVs. Arent they a lot more polluting esp, the battery parts, compared to traditional auto manufacturing?
tialaramex 9y ago
There are a LOT of differences enabled by the "method of energy transport". If I own a coal power station that powers 500 000 electric cars, one government inspector shows up and he says "No, no, no, you must install this scrubber, or we will close you down". So now I need a scrubber. If I own one of the 500 000 diesel cars, the government cannot afford to send an inspector to examine my car, maybe they will ask the mechanic who services it to do their work, but I can trivially bribe him to turn a blind eye. So I can keep polluting. If I own the coal plant, the government will make me build a tall chimney to pump the waste gases into the upper atmosphere and spread them out more, and of course I shan't build the plant on expensive city centre land, but further away. But if I own just a car I can spew the waste gases out onto the street, and collectively they will be densest in city centres where the most people are because that's where they use their cars. We'll know we've turned the corner when the hot spot on local pollution maps is always some big old power station not a city.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  It actually doesn’t work like this in china: the coal plant manager is connected, their relatives are officials, they turn off the scrubbers and use lower quality coal to make a higher profit. And let’s not forget the industries that use coal directly (e.g. smelters). On the other hand, the personal car market is much more regulated, China demands relatively recent emissions equipment and have cracked down on dirty gasoline in many cities. This doesn’t apply to blue trucks, which are super polluting and use shitty gas from outside the city, but personal cars weren’t the major polluter like coal was. So China made great strides in just banning coal and using NG for electric generation even though they don’t have much local supplies. Renewables will eventually help also, but they are generally far away from where they are needed (in western China, whereas everyone lives east). Now that coal is less of a problem, cars will eventually dominate, and probably already do in southern cities that don’t have indoor heating.
woolvalley 9y ago
With the cost reduction curve of solar energy being as fast as it is, prices might just make solar the default sooner than you think. Cars are especially good for this, since they all need to use batteries and are parked for most of their lifetime. Peak power usage isn't as much of an issue with smart meters.

NickM 9y ago

It doesn't matter. One big power plant is so much more efficient than a million little ICE cars that you typically end up with lower emissions and less pollution from EVs even if 100% of your electricity is from coal. That said, China - and most of the world - is on an exponential growth curve for renewables right now. It will take a long time for the world to switch over to EVs, so we're better off starting now, regardless of the current emission profiles for electricity generation.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Beijing has a separate lottery for EVs also, so if you want a car now, you can wait for a few years for a typical ICE one, or you can get one tomorrow if you don't mind EV. Tesla S's are selling like hotcakes accordingly.
- twoodfin 9y ago
  Out of curiousity, how high up in the party would I have to be to get an ICE tomorrow instead of in a few years?
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Who knows. Since almost everyone has party connections in Beijing, it has become difficult to game the system that way (it would be useless otherwise).
abledon 9y ago
what about the manufacturing processes for EVs. Arent they a lot more polluting esp, the battery parts, compared to traditional auto manufacturing?

tialaramex 9y ago

There are a LOT of differences enabled by the "method of energy transport". If I own a coal power station that powers 500 000 electric cars, one government inspector shows up and he says "No, no, no, you must install this scrubber, or we will close you down". So now I need a scrubber. If I own one of the 500 000 diesel cars, the government cannot afford to send an inspector to examine my car, maybe they will ask the mechanic who services it to do their work, but I can trivially bribe him to turn a blind eye. So I can keep polluting. If I own the coal plant, the government will make me build a tall chimney to pump the waste gases into the upper atmosphere and spread them out more, and of course I shan't build the plant on expensive city centre land, but further away. But if I own just a car I can spew the waste gases out onto the street, and collectively they will be densest in city centres where the most people are because that's where they use their cars. We'll know we've turned the corner when the hot spot on local pollution maps is always some big old power station not a city.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
It actually doesn’t work like this in china: the coal plant manager is connected, their relatives are officials, they turn off the scrubbers and use lower quality coal to make a higher profit. And let’s not forget the industries that use coal directly (e.g. smelters). On the other hand, the personal car market is much more regulated, China demands relatively recent emissions equipment and have cracked down on dirty gasoline in many cities. This doesn’t apply to blue trucks, which are super polluting and use shitty gas from outside the city, but personal cars weren’t the major polluter like coal was. So China made great strides in just banning coal and using NG for electric generation even though they don’t have much local supplies. Renewables will eventually help also, but they are generally far away from where they are needed (in western China, whereas everyone lives east). Now that coal is less of a problem, cars will eventually dominate, and probably already do in southern cities that don’t have indoor heating.

woolvalley 9y ago

With the cost reduction curve of solar energy being as fast as it is, prices might just make solar the default sooner than you think. Cars are especially good for this, since they all need to use batteries and are parked for most of their lifetime. Peak power usage isn't as much of an issue with smart meters.