8 ms·

What Works and Why: Opus Magnum

254 points by jsnell 9y ago

jasonincanada 9y ago
Great review of the game, and doesn't even mention the built-in solitaire game, Sigmar's Garden, which is a fun game in and of itself, set in the same hex grid you play on in the main game.
PacifyFish 9y ago
I'm not a gamer yet that write up was riveting. Cool.
empath75 9y ago
I enjoyed this one a lot more than his previous games. There’s not a lot of challenge to just getting through a level, so it’s more of a meditative experience. It has depth if you want to optimize but there’s less banging your head against the wall for hours completely stuck, as can happen in his previous games.
- ThatPlayer 9y ago
  I also found that a lot more enjoyable. You can always just bruteforce your way to the solution, if you're really stuck, and then come back and optimize later.
cpeterso 9y ago
Abstract optimization games like this remind of Verigames, a DARPA project researching gamification of scientific problems (such as protein folding or formal verification of software) so crowds of untrained human players could attempt the solve the problems. https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-verigames-crowdsourced-formal-verification-csfv-project/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-ver... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit
kbenson 9y ago
As you might expect, these types of games appeal to quite a few people that frequent HN, and have come up often the past.[1] 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=pastYear&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&...
rhlala 9y ago
I am not sure i should buy 'opus magnus' or the new 'into the breach' Opus looks like more about programming solving problem? And into the breach more like chess or tactical rpg? I am curious if someone tried both could me make a choice!
- jerrycruncher 9y ago
  I know this is unlikely to help you make a decision, but: you're right, on both counts. Personally I find Into the Breach to be more "game-like" (whereas OM and other Zachtronics titles feel like work, to me), but I think it comes down to personal preference.
- Deregibus 9y ago
  That's a good broad description of both. I loved their previous game TRS-100, but Opus Magnum didn't really do it for me for whatever reason. I'm completely hooked on Into the Breach.
  - NoahTheDuke 9y ago
    Nitpick: Zachtronic's previous game was Shenzhen IO http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/, and is definitely worth checking out if you liked TIS-100.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  I've played both and loved both!
rcthompson 9y ago
Another excellent game I would put in the same genre is Manufactoria, a free flash game. In fact, here's a glowing recommendation for it from the creator of Opus Magnum (the game featured in the OP): http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manufactoria/ http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manu... Edit: It looks like this is the URL for the latest version of Manufactoria: http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/
- candiodari 9y ago
  I feel like there is a big shortage of games like this, but the absolute top to me is human resource machine, where you program a human: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg
  - pxndx 9y ago
    I prefer games like Manufactoria or SpaceChem. Human resource machine and TIS-100 look too much like regular programming to me.
- notvplez 9y ago
  Manufactoria is indeed excellent, it got me back into hobby programming which I had forgotten how much I enjoyed. I recently discovered that its creator has released a programming game called "Silicon Zeroes" on Steam. Haven't had a chance to play it yet but I'm sure it's good, I've sunk quite a few hours into Manufactoria so I was happy to finally send some money the creators way. :)
dhx 9y ago
Someone created a bf interpreter using this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg Also of interest may be similar attempts to create computers in other games and applications: OpenTTD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU Minecraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M PowerPoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8
- sandralopz5 9y ago
  good jon
- pdkl95 9y ago
  TIS-100 in Infinifactory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
What I love about Zachtronics is the vast design space.
- Terr_ 9y ago
  It's what makes them problem-solving games rather than puzzle-solving games. Your solution is a subtly-unique creation that you can emotionally own.
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
One thing I would like for the Zachtronics games is if the optimization mattered somehow other than just personal satisfaction. Such as you get achievements, special equipment, or get to unlock special stages for meeting certain optimization goals. Or since you are basically designing factories (or PCBs in the case of Shenzhen and TIS), maybe your creations earn profit based on their cost and efficiency? And maybe you have to earn enough profit to win the game, in which case would have to revisit less efficient designs to improve them.
- panic 9y ago
  You could try to improve on the best known metrics for each level: https://www.reddit.com/r/opus_magnum/wiki/index https://www.reddit.com/r/opus_magnum/wiki/index
  - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
    Right, and I am aware of this and think it is great that people are trying to find the best solutions and compete in the real world. But I was instead suggesting to have the optimization matter in the game's world.
- flashman 9y ago
  Well, part of the appeal for Tom is that you can just blunder your way through the campaign: "And that’s reason 6: you don’t have to optimise. If I had to do this to progress, I probably would have quit in frustration." I'm reminded here of Wario Land on the Gameboy: you could finish the game by speeding through levels, but the time you spent collecting treasure directly influenced the prize you got at the end. Maybe that would be a good compromise for gamers driven by external milestones rather than personal ones.
  - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
    > "I probably would have quit in frustration." In actuality, I actually quit in frustration about 3/4ths through the game because I realized I could just blunder my way through the rest of the game. Eventually I got tired of the game after I stopped caring about optimizing, and then wondered why I should bother completing the game other than for the sake of completing it. Yes there was a storyline to the game which should be completed, but the storyline was disconnected from the essense of the game (which to me was optimization). I would have felt more purpose in finishing the game if the optimization mattered somehow, like for instance if it affected the storyline or progress of your character somehow. I don't think it is a matter to me of "external milestones" vs "personal milestones", but more about engagement and immersion in the story and world of the game, which I suppose is something I am after in addition to simple mental exercise. For comparison, another Zachtronics game "SpaceChem" does a great job in linking the optimization into the game and storyline though the following simple mechanism: in order to defeat bosses, your factory had to meet certain timing requirements. To me, that requirement made all the difference in terms of immersion.
knolan 9y ago
SpaceChem was my favourite iPad game. It was great when travelling when you had some time to burn and it could be really challenging. It’s a shame that Zachtronics decided to drop support for iOS.
Inufu 9y ago
From the article this sounds exactly like my experience playing code golf - coming up with a cool solution, finding out your friend did it in half as many characters, completely reinventing your approach, repeat.
pxndx 9y ago
Haven't seen any mention of Factorio in this thread. It's not as much of a puzzle game (except when going for extreme optimisation) but a resource management game.
- quchen 9y ago
  Time, in particular. When you’re new, you think all those »more addictive than crack« comments are jokes. They are not. Factorio has a lot in common with writing a fun new language that you don’t know how to abstract things in, figuring out as you go. Spaghetti bases will bite you just the same way as spaghetti code. And once you get the hang of it, it’s all about scaling, becoming crazier and crazier, until you have entire bases built with a swarm of flying robots in a single click. Can’t recommend it enough – but unlike Opus Magnum, Factorio is, as mentioned, definitely not a casual game.
  - frenchie4111 9y ago
    I went over to a friends one night, we decided to check out Factorio. I didn't leave his house for 4 days, we both called out of work sick, I racked up 80 hours play time on Steam. I have since decided to never open that game again.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Someone said "I used to have a family - now I have a factory". And after playing it, you realize that it's not a joke.
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Can those who've played these games recommend which one to start with for someone who is interested but hasn't played any of them?
- pxndx 9y ago
  I'd start with the free ones: http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineering/ http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineeri... http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ Then depending on which one (or which parts) you like the most, select a similar one
- dcre 9y ago
  This one or Infinifactory. Both masterpieces.
billfruit 9y ago
Perhaps it would be a tinge more fun, if the chemistry was somewhat realistic. Though I haven't played Opus, the totally bogus chemistry of SpaceChem was detracting from the experience, and I wonder why most reviewers haven't really commented on that aspect.
- k3d 9y ago
  I might be misinterpreting you, but Opus Magnum is "alchemy"- it makes no attempt to reflect real chemistry, the components are simply abstractions. I can't tell if that would be a pro or a con in your book, but it's a pretty good game.
devit 9y ago
I found this game to be terrible, in contrast to Shenzen I/O which I found somewhat fun. The issue was the lack of any meaningful constraint, which means that there is no difficulty and solving the puzzle is just a matter of tediously entering a sequence that produces the desired result. In theory you could try to get the most optimal solution, but that doesn't seem very fun either, since the lack of programmability and variety makes everything very bland.

254 points by jsnell 9y ago

Great review of the game, and doesn't even mention the built-in solitaire game, Sigmar's Garden, which is a fun game in and of itself, set in the same hex grid you play on in the main game.

PacifyFish 9y ago

I'm not a gamer yet that write up was riveting. Cool.

empath75 9y ago

I enjoyed this one a lot more than his previous games. There’s not a lot of challenge to just getting through a level, so it’s more of a meditative experience. It has depth if you want to optimize but there’s less banging your head against the wall for hours completely stuck, as can happen in his previous games.

ThatPlayer 9y ago
I also found that a lot more enjoyable. You can always just bruteforce your way to the solution, if you're really stuck, and then come back and optimize later.

cpeterso 9y ago

Abstract optimization games like this remind of Verigames, a DARPA project researching gamification of scientific problems (such as protein folding or formal verification of software) so crowds of untrained human players could attempt the solve the problems. https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-verigames-crowdsourced-formal-verification-csfv-project/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/citizen-science/darpa-ver... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foldit

kbenson 9y ago

As you might expect, these types of games appeal to quite a few people that frequent HN, and have come up often the past.[1] 1: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=pastYear&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=zachtronixs&sort=byPopularity&...

rhlala 9y ago

I am not sure i should buy 'opus magnus' or the new 'into the breach' Opus looks like more about programming solving problem? And into the breach more like chess or tactical rpg? I am curious if someone tried both could me make a choice!

jerrycruncher 9y ago
I know this is unlikely to help you make a decision, but: you're right, on both counts. Personally I find Into the Breach to be more "game-like" (whereas OM and other Zachtronics titles feel like work, to me), but I think it comes down to personal preference.
Deregibus 9y ago
That's a good broad description of both. I loved their previous game TRS-100, but Opus Magnum didn't really do it for me for whatever reason. I'm completely hooked on Into the Breach.
- NoahTheDuke 9y ago
  Nitpick: Zachtronic's previous game was Shenzhen IO http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/ http://www.zachtronics.com/shenzhen-io/, and is definitely worth checking out if you liked TIS-100.
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
I've played both and loved both!

rcthompson 9y ago

Another excellent game I would put in the same genre is Manufactoria, a free flash game. In fact, here's a glowing recommendation for it from the creator of Opus Magnum (the game featured in the OP): http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manufactoria/ http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manu... Edit: It looks like this is the URL for the latest version of Manufactoria: http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/

candiodari 9y ago
I feel like there is a big shortage of games like this, but the absolute top to me is human resource machine, where you program a human: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7rSN265Yg
- pxndx 9y ago
  I prefer games like Manufactoria or SpaceChem. Human resource machine and TIS-100 look too much like regular programming to me.
notvplez 9y ago
Manufactoria is indeed excellent, it got me back into hobby programming which I had forgotten how much I enjoyed. I recently discovered that its creator has released a programming game called "Silicon Zeroes" on Steam. Haven't had a chance to play it yet but I'm sure it's good, I've sunk quite a few hours into Manufactoria so I was happy to finally send some money the creators way. :)

dhx 9y ago

Someone created a bf interpreter using this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll0qHlx_qLg Also of interest may be similar attempts to create computers in other games and applications: OpenTTD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEzm1ghAsU Minecraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPaI5BJxs5M PowerPoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8

sandralopz5 9y ago
good jon
pdkl95 9y ago
TIS-100 in Infinifactory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMnOEgbm2fE

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

What I love about Zachtronics is the vast design space.

Terr_ 9y ago
It's what makes them problem-solving games rather than puzzle-solving games. Your solution is a subtly-unique creation that you can emotionally own.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

One thing I would like for the Zachtronics games is if the optimization mattered somehow other than just personal satisfaction. Such as you get achievements, special equipment, or get to unlock special stages for meeting certain optimization goals. Or since you are basically designing factories (or PCBs in the case of Shenzhen and TIS), maybe your creations earn profit based on their cost and efficiency? And maybe you have to earn enough profit to win the game, in which case would have to revisit less efficient designs to improve them.

panic 9y ago
You could try to improve on the best known metrics for each level: https://www.reddit.com/r/opus_magnum/wiki/index https://www.reddit.com/r/opus_magnum/wiki/index
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  Right, and I am aware of this and think it is great that people are trying to find the best solutions and compete in the real world. But I was instead suggesting to have the optimization matter in the game's world.
flashman 9y ago
Well, part of the appeal for Tom is that you can just blunder your way through the campaign: "And that’s reason 6: you don’t have to optimise. If I had to do this to progress, I probably would have quit in frustration." I'm reminded here of Wario Land on the Gameboy: you could finish the game by speeding through levels, but the time you spent collecting treasure directly influenced the prize you got at the end. Maybe that would be a good compromise for gamers driven by external milestones rather than personal ones.
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  > "I probably would have quit in frustration." In actuality, I actually quit in frustration about 3/4ths through the game because I realized I could just blunder my way through the rest of the game. Eventually I got tired of the game after I stopped caring about optimizing, and then wondered why I should bother completing the game other than for the sake of completing it. Yes there was a storyline to the game which should be completed, but the storyline was disconnected from the essense of the game (which to me was optimization). I would have felt more purpose in finishing the game if the optimization mattered somehow, like for instance if it affected the storyline or progress of your character somehow. I don't think it is a matter to me of "external milestones" vs "personal milestones", but more about engagement and immersion in the story and world of the game, which I suppose is something I am after in addition to simple mental exercise. For comparison, another Zachtronics game "SpaceChem" does a great job in linking the optimization into the game and storyline though the following simple mechanism: in order to defeat bosses, your factory had to meet certain timing requirements. To me, that requirement made all the difference in terms of immersion.

knolan 9y ago

SpaceChem was my favourite iPad game. It was great when travelling when you had some time to burn and it could be really challenging. It’s a shame that Zachtronics decided to drop support for iOS.

Inufu 9y ago

From the article this sounds exactly like my experience playing code golf - coming up with a cool solution, finding out your friend did it in half as many characters, completely reinventing your approach, repeat.

pxndx 9y ago

Haven't seen any mention of Factorio in this thread. It's not as much of a puzzle game (except when going for extreme optimisation) but a resource management game.

quchen 9y ago
Time, in particular. When you’re new, you think all those »more addictive than crack« comments are jokes. They are not. Factorio has a lot in common with writing a fun new language that you don’t know how to abstract things in, figuring out as you go. Spaghetti bases will bite you just the same way as spaghetti code. And once you get the hang of it, it’s all about scaling, becoming crazier and crazier, until you have entire bases built with a swarm of flying robots in a single click. Can’t recommend it enough – but unlike Opus Magnum, Factorio is, as mentioned, definitely not a casual game.
- frenchie4111 9y ago
  I went over to a friends one night, we decided to check out Factorio. I didn't leave his house for 4 days, we both called out of work sick, I racked up 80 hours play time on Steam. I have since decided to never open that game again.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Someone said "I used to have a family - now I have a factory". And after playing it, you realize that it's not a joke.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

Can those who've played these games recommend which one to start with for someone who is interested but hasn't played any of them?

pxndx 9y ago
I'd start with the free ones: http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineering/ http://www.zachtronics.com/the-codex-of-alchemical-engineeri... http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/ Then depending on which one (or which parts) you like the most, select a similar one
dcre 9y ago
This one or Infinifactory. Both masterpieces.

billfruit 9y ago

Perhaps it would be a tinge more fun, if the chemistry was somewhat realistic. Though I haven't played Opus, the totally bogus chemistry of SpaceChem was detracting from the experience, and I wonder why most reviewers haven't really commented on that aspect.

k3d 9y ago
I might be misinterpreting you, but Opus Magnum is "alchemy"- it makes no attempt to reflect real chemistry, the components are simply abstractions. I can't tell if that would be a pro or a con in your book, but it's a pretty good game.

devit 9y ago

I found this game to be terrible, in contrast to Shenzen I/O which I found somewhat fun. The issue was the lack of any meaningful constraint, which means that there is no difficulty and solving the puzzle is just a matter of tediously entering a sequence that produces the desired result. In theory you could try to get the most optimal solution, but that doesn't seem very fun either, since the lack of programmability and variety makes everything very bland.