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Sleeping in rooms with even a little light can increase risk of depression

170 points by WildGreenLeave 9y ago

hawski 9y ago
Meanwhile: 22. ▲ The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation (mosaicscience.com) 389 points by onuralp 1 day ago | flag | hide | 135 comments
- GoToRO 9y ago
  There is no contradiction.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Sleep deprivation is different from sleeping poorly.
  - Izkata 9y ago
    Both articles are talking about depression, neither is about sleeping poorly.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  Temporary rush of steroids. Different phenomenon, may actually be causing the long term harm.
homero 9y ago
I think a lot of studies like this are just wrong. When I was a kid, I couldn't sleep without a light on because I'd get depressed. So later on in life if I didn't remember that, I'd think that I just had a light on and now I'm depressed. I think depressed people like a little light. Much like they say red meat causes cancer, I don't think it's the red meat. I think it's how it's cooked. Red meat is usually barbecued and that char is what could be causing the cancer.
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  >So later on in life if I didn't remember that, I'd think that I just had a light on and now I'm depressed. What? Anyway, this study has strict definitions of what "depression" is, and I doubt whatever you felt as a child would qualify. >Much like they say red meat causes cancer, I don't think it's the red meat. I think it's how it's cooked. Red meat is usually barbecued and that char is what could be causing the cancer. They say eating red meat may cause cancer. Even if your guess is true, they would still be right as red meat is often barbecued. And as a larger point, thinking something like this is true doesn't matter until you get evidence for it.
  - justtopointout 9y ago
    > What? Anyway, this study has strict definitions of what "depression" is, and I doubt whatever you felt as a child would qualify. Because children don't get depressed? Why would you doubt what they felt would qualify clinically?
  - homero 9y ago
    If I didn't remember why I wanted light on. They would be right about red meat but the point would be lost if people begin switching to bbqing chicken and still get cancer.
    - boomboomsubban 9y ago
      I still think you're confusing whatever feelings you felt with clinical depression. >They would be right about red meat but the point would be lost if people begin switching to bbqing chicken and still get cancer. The study was showing a link they found, they weren't giving a diet recommendation. But, it would only be lost if your guess was correct and everybody that made the switch barbecued as much chicken as they did beef. Otherwise, fewer people would develop cancer than if the scientific study had not been published.
- harlanji 9y ago
  Maybe a bit OT, but my understanding of meat causing cancer is that if you don’t eat enough fiber to clear out the intestinal sludge then it harbors the conditions for cancerous cells to come about. I need to follow up on that more. Even more OT, but it’s irrelevant now as I took a break from meat a year ago after my Plated boxes piled up over the holidays and I couldn’t eat it fast enough . I noticed how supple my body was after a while and got to questioning the food industry and finding too many answers related to my health that I didn’t like. Eating enough seasonal fruit is beneficial in any case, the water clears out toxins. Good point about meat char, seems minimal compared to gunk buildup from an overall health perspective. I dunno if we really thrive as meat eaters anyway, given my health then and now.
icebraining 9y ago
Link to the study: https://sci-hub.tw/https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/187/3/427/4056592 https://sci-hub.tw/https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/187/...
- noname120 9y ago
  This is worth noting: > Our study has several potential limitations. First, participants were not randomly selected, possibly leading to selection bias. However, the parameters of BMI and estimated glomerular filtration rate were similar to corresponding national data in Japan and the follow-up rate was sufficiently high. > Second, bedroom light intensity was measured without eye-level light meters, and sleep/awake status was measured only over 2 days.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
GoToRO 9y ago
What I don't like are the "solutions" they propose: noise? use earplugs, light? use curtains. Well I will not be able to sleep if I have something in my ears and if you pull the curtains then you can no longer wake up naturally with the Sun. How about changing your lifestyle so that you can have silence and dark during the night and light in the morning without any "devices". You might have to quit your job :)
- icebraining 9y ago
  So other people should change their jobs because you can't sleep with earplugs? Seems like a curious way to see the world. Regarding light, if you want morning sunlight, motorized curtains with a timer are cheaper than moving.
  - cup-of-tea 9y ago
    He didn't say that other people should change their jobs for him. He said they should change their jobs instead of having to sleep with earplugs or curtains. But I think he fails to realise that many people live in very different environments to him.
- cup-of-tea 9y ago
  I doubt that you wake up naturally with the Sun. Where I live the difference between Winter sunrise and Summer sunrise is about 6 hours. Most people keep more regular hours throughout the year.
  - WingH 9y ago
    Me too. I always tend to wake up the exact same time (right down to the minute) every single morning, no matter how early or late I sleep. And I don’t set an alarm clock and use blackout curtain.
- musage 9y ago
  Some people have to work at night so you don't have to.
- 9y ago
mrfusion 9y ago
It seems like a study like this could have actually modified the light levels and measured the changes.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Actually, they didn't touch the lights at all, they only measured the lights that people already were exposed to. They write that "an interventional method, such as a randomized controlled trial using a LAN exposure, is not possible because of ethical concerns".
  - mrfusion 9y ago
    I can’t imagine minor adjustments to light levels could ever be considered unethical. Is it unethical when a city installs a new street light?
    - dpark 9y ago
      It’s unethical to do X when X is expected to harm the study subjects. Exceptions are sometimes made for interventions with terminally ill patients, but in general studies that are expected to harm subjects are not approved by ethics boards. They could reasonably do an intervention study that only reduces bedroom light to confirm if that corrects depression on subjects.
    - e40 9y ago
      Other studies have shown increased risk of cancer for nurses that sleep during the day, so there is a legit concern.
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      Yes - it is harmful, we now know, and keeping people in solitary confinement with high light levels around the clock even more so, although common.
  - noname120 9y ago
    > Actually, they didn't touch the lights at all, they only measured the lights that people already were exposed to. But isn't it a flaw of the study? It only shows correlation without causality. What if being exposed to light is correlated to some other factor that is responsible for increased depression? In this case, decreasing the amount of light won't decrease depression.
navjack27 9y ago
So does my body itself need to be protected from seeing light or just my face/eyes? I'll just get a sleep mask.
- computator 9y ago
  Skimming the original study, it talks about subjects opening and closing their eyes, so I would very much assume that it's entirely related to seeing light (and not about absorbing light through the face or body). If you get a sleep mask, be sure to look for one designed to not put pressure on your eyes, which are not hard to find if you seek it out. The cheap ones you get at pharmacies and dollar stores put direct pressure on the eyeballs and it's a wonder that anyone can tolerate them and are perhaps even harmful.
  - muzani 9y ago
    Any brands you'd suggest?
    - cgravill 9y ago
      Hibermate are very good, I use them especially when travelling. Original style are reasonably priced https://www.hibermate.com/products/the-original-hibermate https://www.hibermate.com/products/the-original-hibermate
    - sls 9y ago
      I've been delighted with "Mack's shut-eye shade premium sleep mask" for years. I've only needed to replace my original once. I started using these when I was a traveling consultant, and now use it only for travel, when taking an afternoon nap, or sleeping in (usually due to illness). It's very comfortable. The nose bridge is padded. There are two straps, from the top and bottom of the sides, so you don't have a strap routing over the ear. I find it lets in the least amount of light of the masks I've tried precisely because of the comfort features. I don't have to try to arrange the mask in some contorted way to get comfort, so it can sit as intended and block light.
    - 9y ago
exodust 9y ago
> those exposed to more than five “lux” of light each night had higher rates of depression Light can be measured, depression cannot. It barely even has a definition, let alone quantifiable rate. I'd sooner believe that auto-playing videos had a stronger link to depression than lux. Random theory... Maybe depressed people are highly sensitive to the world's problems/suffering both in immediate and wider environment, their antennae picks up this instability that manifests as internal trauma, anxiety etc. Someone should do an experiment to see if isolation for a few weeks influences depression rate; avoidance of all news, no phone, no internet, no people. Get ready for "Study finds extreme boredom effective anti-depressant".
analogic 9y ago
They still use go.com? Lol, everytime I see that domain all I can think of is it being the place where Infoseek went to die.
lkrubner 9y ago
Should we assume that the light itself is causing the depression? Or should we assume that the light leads to poor sleep, and then the poor sleep is what triggers the depression?
- Scipio_Afri 9y ago
  The second one I think is the most likely assumption, but the most reasonable/obvious can be wrong which is why studies are important.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  And how does poor sleep causing depression square with sleep deprivation alleviating it?
  - cellularmitosis 9y ago
    I could imagine that being chronically deprived of quality sleep is different than skipping an entire circadian cycle once per week. Edit: I recently made the mistake (for a few months) of taking my medication before bed, rather than in the morning. This included vitamin D. Guess what happens when the body gets a dose of vitamin D at night? No quality sleep for you! So I certainly sympathize with the quest for quality sleep.
  - psyc 9y ago
    A controlled sleep fast may help temporarily. Chronic deprivation beyond your control is a disaster.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    Good question, however a rush of steroids for one day incidentally boosting mood isn't inconsistent - it's just the body treating that day as something of an emergency situation. A swallow doesn't make a summer.
- Izkata 9y ago
  Currently on the front page: "The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500 A quick skim makes it sound a bit more complicated, only working on people who already have depression. May answer the question though.
davidw 9y ago
One thing I miss from Italy are real shutters: https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/ https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/
- r00fus 9y ago
  We got "blackout curtains". Relatively easy to install and is 95% darker than blinds.
  - hocuspocus 9y ago
    The first result on Google search points to Ikea Marjun curtains, I bought those when I lived in Berlin and I guarantee you that it was impossible to get my bedroom really dark. On the other hand with proper outdoor shutters or roller blinds[0] you can easily get a room pitch-black. [0] https://www.schenk-sonnenschutztechnik.de/uploads/tx_frsupersized/rollladen-intego-schenk-sonnenschutztechnik-1-1600.jpg https://www.schenk-sonnenschutztechnik.de/uploads/tx_frsuper...
  - trendia 9y ago
    European shutters are pretty nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KePLmie7lE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KePLmie7lE
    - weinzierl 9y ago
      The type shown in the video is pretty common in Germany and besides its ability to make a room pitch black it also provides a decent protection against burglary. Many, if not most of these shutters are certified for resistance class RC2 according to DIN EN 1627. The title of the video is wrong, by the way. It is not Rouladen, which would be a dish of filled rolled meat, but Rollladen. Rollladen is literally rolling shutter and it is really written with three l in a row.
      - davidw 9y ago
        In Italy they're "tapparelle", and I think they're a fantastic thing to have for your house. With even mediocre ones you can get a room really dark even if it's pretty light outside.
tzs 9y ago
Sort of OT, but this reminds me of a question I've not been able to find an answer for on blue light and sleep. (OT because the article says nothing about blue light). One way light affects sleep is via the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (ipRGCs). These are a third kind of photoreceptor in our retinas, distinct from the more well known rods and cones. These are most sensitive to blue light. They signal the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) in the brain with information about the amount of light they are receiving. The SCN controls circadian rhythms, and uses the changes in light as the day ends as reported by the ipRGCs to do things like to keep things that should be synchronized to the day/night cycle in sync. Blue light in the evening can mess this up because it makes it look like it is still daylight, as far as far as the SCN can can tell from what it gets from the ipRGCs. What I have not found anywhere is whether this is based on absolute or relative amount of blue light. Does the SCN look for blue light to fall below a certain fixed threshold, or does it do something like note the peak level of blue light during the day, and then look for the blue light to fall below a certain fraction of that? The reason this matters is that more and more of our devices that we want to use in the evening supply blue light. We try to counter that by adding features that change the color spectrum in the evening to something with less blue. But that doesn't always work. Computers usually can do it, and often so can tablets and phones. I don't think many TVs have such a setting, though. If the SCN works with absolute levels, fixing the devices (or wearing blue light filtering glasses) might be the only answer if you aren't able to stop using your devices in the evening. But if it is based on relative levels, keyed off the peak daytime level...then instead of fixing all the devices it might be possible to address the problem by greatly boosting blue levels in the middle of the day, so that your evening device levels will be far enough down from the peak to not affect anything.
- sitkack 9y ago
  I haven't done any rigorous science, but having zero screen time at least 2hrs before sleep and having warm orange lighting definitely allows me to have long uninterrupted sleep. Heavy screen usage before bedtime has the same effect as drinking on my sleep patterns.
- n1000 9y ago
  The f.lux website has a ‚research‘ section with plenty of reading material on the issue: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html
jimnotgym 9y ago
Quick plug I started curating a list of things that may help depression yesterday over on Github https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I just added this
- O_nlogn 9y ago
  Please consider including links to local crisis helplines e.g. [1] and [2]. Doubtless some people in the midst of a crisis will discover this resource, and it is really important that they are aware there is immediate help available. [3] [1] https://www.samaritans.org/ https://www.samaritans.org/ [2] https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ [3] https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/mental-health-and-suicide-reporting-guidelines/ https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/mental-health-and-suicide-report...
  - dprsthrwy 9y ago
    On the other hand you may turn away depressed people who are not in a crisis because they don't want to be associated with the idea of suicide when their main problem is they have no will or energy to do anything ever. You might end up hurting these people by constantly mentioning suicide whenever they finally get the guts to learn about their depression. "Oh, you depressed? Here, read about suicide! Let me scare you back into your hole!" -a once depressed person whose recovery was delayed by the association described
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      You both make good points. I opened an issue to discuss. Please have your say. https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression/issues/1 https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression/issues/1
Herodotus38 9y ago
In prehistoric times, before shelter was common, would a half or full moon cause the same effect? I just wonder about how actually natural a pitch black sleep is.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  Perhaps that's where the legends about people going wonky at the time of the full moon came from? Werewolves, "lunatics", etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic Just a speculation.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- schiffern 9y ago
  >I just wonder about how actually natural a pitch black sleep is. "Pitch black" is another thing entirely, but the moon is much dimmer than the light levels this study reports as causing depression (5 lux). And it's pretty dim (equivalent to stray light from a streetlamp). >The intensity of moonlight varies greatly depending on its phase, but even the full Moon typically provides only about 0.05–0.1 lux illumination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight
  - Herodotus38 9y ago
    Thanks for putting it into perspective. 5 lux is quite a lot to me.
- nkoren 9y ago
  I've spent prolonged periods living away from artificial light. In such situations, the lunar cycle has a profound effect on your psychology and sociology. New moons are quiet times, and wildest parties happen at full moon. Makes me think that "lunatic" is probably a very, very, very ancient concept.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  iPRGCs are scattered widely across the retina - presumably for just this reason, to quickly discount light from a full moon.
gargarplex 9y ago
I added a real blackout curtain to my room and really noticed a difference in the quality of my sleep and my general mood. It was designed to really black out all light... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZJ88DY/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZJ88DY/
- sitkack 9y ago
  Ikea also has a great assortment of easy to install blackout shades, http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70349252/ http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70349252/
  - maxander 9y ago
    What we ought to have is a blackout shade that will automatically roll down at night and back up in the morning, when we want sunlight to start waking us up.
    - joshuata 9y ago
      I use a combination of blackout shades, Philips hue lights, and the Sleep cycle app on my phone. It starts the lights very dim and red at the beginning of a 20 minute wake up window, slowly brightens them, and then rings the alarm whenever I start rolling over. It is a little complicated, but it has worked well for a few years now.
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      Someday, most windows will have an internally plate between the glazings that is moved up at night automatically. A Phillips light-alarm clock does the other half of the job, now, for me.
    - jpalomaki 9y ago
      Look for motorized roller curtain. I have those in two bedrooms. They are actually very convenient, even though I just have the remote control and not any automation. DIY persons can also find instructions for getting the shades from IKEA and motors from Ebay. Mine are using motors/control from Somfy. Those have at least worked flawlessly for several years. For the roller curtains there are also models which have "things" on the sides where the curtain slides in. This blocks the light that would otherwise shine in from there. If this is not an option, should look for curtain which is dark from the outside. This should also help a little bit.
DoreenMichele 9y ago
Light does not happen by magic and tends to not occur alone. I would be very leery of asserting cause and effect here.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  There's a very long bibliography stretching back more than a decade and including at least one mouse model of depression. It's not just one study.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I am not readily finding this bibliography. If you would be so kind as to link to it (and perhaps copy/paste if it is paywalled.)
    - Nomentatus 9y ago
      pubmed dot com https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=light+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=light+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ipRGCs+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ipRGCs+depression
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        Thank you.
    - joveian 9y ago
      There are a bunch of results for "light at night" on Google Scholar and Pubmed, but I'm not sure of specific references. This particular study (a manuscript is available on sci-hub[0]) does not have a discussion of this topic (other stuff that could come with the light) at all and two reviews I searched for "noise" and "sound" did not seem to have a discussion either. I'm sure some of the many studies over the years have at least actively changed the lighting and measured melatonin, but it is sloppy to not even discuss the topic. In the case of this study, a figure at the end of the manuscript shows that most of the light exposure (averaged) happens in the hour after bed and hour before getting up, so that seems like a big clue that it isn't just a case of light at night (ideally they would divide light exposure into three segments and look at each). Also, the study started with people not showing depressive symptoms but it didn't consider if light exposure had changed and the study seems on the small (863 people) and short (median 2 year follow up) side if light (and whatever else) exposure had not changed. For that matter, it sounds like they only measured light exposure and sleep for two days and assume that is representative of the whole period. It sounds like the depression scale[1] was given at the beginning and end of the study and looking at number or duration of episodes could have a different result. Also, it isn't clear that depressive symptoms here necessarily correspond with depression or if they are signs of a sleep disorder. All in all, this isn't a good study to look at individually. [0] https://twin.sci-hub.tw/ef19202b216d8e1af61a7ced2510e060/obayashi2017.pdf https://twin.sci-hub.tw/ef19202b216d8e1af61a7ced2510e060/oba... [1] https://consultgeri.org/try-this/general-assessment/issue-4.pdf https://consultgeri.org/try-this/general-assessment/issue-4....
lhnz 9y ago
I currently sleep in a room with zero natural light. I can't tell you whether this makes me more or less likely to be depressed (I think it pales in comparison to other things in my life), however I do always keep a low light on -- without this, it would be very difficult to find my bearings when I wake up. Also, it is extremely difficult to wake up when it's completely pitch-black.
- chrisper 9y ago
  Get a wake up light.
bitL 9y ago
Slightly off-topic: I've noticed if I work all night (e.g. yesterday writing a paper proposal for a conference), and I manage to stay up all the way until dawn, I literally get euphoria once Sun glances through windows. I can be super tired, but it shots my mood up considerably.

Meanwhile: 22. ▲ The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation (mosaicscience.com) 389 points by onuralp 1 day ago | flag | hide | 135 comments

GoToRO 9y ago
There is no contradiction.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Sleep deprivation is different from sleeping poorly.
- Izkata 9y ago
  Both articles are talking about depression, neither is about sleeping poorly.
Nomentatus 9y ago
Temporary rush of steroids. Different phenomenon, may actually be causing the long term harm.

homero 9y ago

I think a lot of studies like this are just wrong. When I was a kid, I couldn't sleep without a light on because I'd get depressed. So later on in life if I didn't remember that, I'd think that I just had a light on and now I'm depressed. I think depressed people like a little light. Much like they say red meat causes cancer, I don't think it's the red meat. I think it's how it's cooked. Red meat is usually barbecued and that char is what could be causing the cancer.

boomboomsubban 9y ago
>So later on in life if I didn't remember that, I'd think that I just had a light on and now I'm depressed. What? Anyway, this study has strict definitions of what "depression" is, and I doubt whatever you felt as a child would qualify. >Much like they say red meat causes cancer, I don't think it's the red meat. I think it's how it's cooked. Red meat is usually barbecued and that char is what could be causing the cancer. They say eating red meat may cause cancer. Even if your guess is true, they would still be right as red meat is often barbecued. And as a larger point, thinking something like this is true doesn't matter until you get evidence for it.
- justtopointout 9y ago
  > What? Anyway, this study has strict definitions of what "depression" is, and I doubt whatever you felt as a child would qualify. Because children don't get depressed? Why would you doubt what they felt would qualify clinically?
- homero 9y ago
  If I didn't remember why I wanted light on. They would be right about red meat but the point would be lost if people begin switching to bbqing chicken and still get cancer.
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    I still think you're confusing whatever feelings you felt with clinical depression. >They would be right about red meat but the point would be lost if people begin switching to bbqing chicken and still get cancer. The study was showing a link they found, they weren't giving a diet recommendation. But, it would only be lost if your guess was correct and everybody that made the switch barbecued as much chicken as they did beef. Otherwise, fewer people would develop cancer than if the scientific study had not been published.
harlanji 9y ago
Maybe a bit OT, but my understanding of meat causing cancer is that if you don’t eat enough fiber to clear out the intestinal sludge then it harbors the conditions for cancerous cells to come about. I need to follow up on that more. Even more OT, but it’s irrelevant now as I took a break from meat a year ago after my Plated boxes piled up over the holidays and I couldn’t eat it fast enough . I noticed how supple my body was after a while and got to questioning the food industry and finding too many answers related to my health that I didn’t like. Eating enough seasonal fruit is beneficial in any case, the water clears out toxins. Good point about meat char, seems minimal compared to gunk buildup from an overall health perspective. I dunno if we really thrive as meat eaters anyway, given my health then and now.

icebraining 9y ago

Link to the study: https://sci-hub.tw/https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/187/3/427/4056592 https://sci-hub.tw/https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/187/...

noname120 9y ago
This is worth noting: > Our study has several potential limitations. First, participants were not randomly selected, possibly leading to selection bias. However, the parameters of BMI and estimated glomerular filtration rate were similar to corresponding national data in Japan and the follow-up rate was sufficiently high. > Second, bedroom light intensity was measured without eye-level light meters, and sleep/awake status was measured only over 2 days.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

GoToRO 9y ago

What I don't like are the "solutions" they propose: noise? use earplugs, light? use curtains. Well I will not be able to sleep if I have something in my ears and if you pull the curtains then you can no longer wake up naturally with the Sun. How about changing your lifestyle so that you can have silence and dark during the night and light in the morning without any "devices". You might have to quit your job :)

icebraining 9y ago
So other people should change their jobs because you can't sleep with earplugs? Seems like a curious way to see the world. Regarding light, if you want morning sunlight, motorized curtains with a timer are cheaper than moving.
- cup-of-tea 9y ago
  He didn't say that other people should change their jobs for him. He said they should change their jobs instead of having to sleep with earplugs or curtains. But I think he fails to realise that many people live in very different environments to him.
cup-of-tea 9y ago
I doubt that you wake up naturally with the Sun. Where I live the difference between Winter sunrise and Summer sunrise is about 6 hours. Most people keep more regular hours throughout the year.
- WingH 9y ago
  Me too. I always tend to wake up the exact same time (right down to the minute) every single morning, no matter how early or late I sleep. And I don’t set an alarm clock and use blackout curtain.
musage 9y ago
Some people have to work at night so you don't have to.
9y ago

mrfusion 9y ago

It seems like a study like this could have actually modified the light levels and measured the changes.

icebraining 9y ago
Actually, they didn't touch the lights at all, they only measured the lights that people already were exposed to. They write that "an interventional method, such as a randomized controlled trial using a LAN exposure, is not possible because of ethical concerns".
- mrfusion 9y ago
  I can’t imagine minor adjustments to light levels could ever be considered unethical. Is it unethical when a city installs a new street light?
  - dpark 9y ago
    It’s unethical to do X when X is expected to harm the study subjects. Exceptions are sometimes made for interventions with terminally ill patients, but in general studies that are expected to harm subjects are not approved by ethics boards. They could reasonably do an intervention study that only reduces bedroom light to confirm if that corrects depression on subjects.
  - e40 9y ago
    Other studies have shown increased risk of cancer for nurses that sleep during the day, so there is a legit concern.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    Yes - it is harmful, we now know, and keeping people in solitary confinement with high light levels around the clock even more so, although common.
- noname120 9y ago
  > Actually, they didn't touch the lights at all, they only measured the lights that people already were exposed to. But isn't it a flaw of the study? It only shows correlation without causality. What if being exposed to light is correlated to some other factor that is responsible for increased depression? In this case, decreasing the amount of light won't decrease depression.

navjack27 9y ago

So does my body itself need to be protected from seeing light or just my face/eyes? I'll just get a sleep mask.

computator 9y ago
Skimming the original study, it talks about subjects opening and closing their eyes, so I would very much assume that it's entirely related to seeing light (and not about absorbing light through the face or body). If you get a sleep mask, be sure to look for one designed to not put pressure on your eyes, which are not hard to find if you seek it out. The cheap ones you get at pharmacies and dollar stores put direct pressure on the eyeballs and it's a wonder that anyone can tolerate them and are perhaps even harmful.
- muzani 9y ago
  Any brands you'd suggest?
  - cgravill 9y ago
    Hibermate are very good, I use them especially when travelling. Original style are reasonably priced https://www.hibermate.com/products/the-original-hibermate https://www.hibermate.com/products/the-original-hibermate
  - sls 9y ago
    I've been delighted with "Mack's shut-eye shade premium sleep mask" for years. I've only needed to replace my original once. I started using these when I was a traveling consultant, and now use it only for travel, when taking an afternoon nap, or sleeping in (usually due to illness). It's very comfortable. The nose bridge is padded. There are two straps, from the top and bottom of the sides, so you don't have a strap routing over the ear. I find it lets in the least amount of light of the masks I've tried precisely because of the comfort features. I don't have to try to arrange the mask in some contorted way to get comfort, so it can sit as intended and block light.
  - 9y ago

exodust 9y ago

> those exposed to more than five “lux” of light each night had higher rates of depression Light can be measured, depression cannot. It barely even has a definition, let alone quantifiable rate. I'd sooner believe that auto-playing videos had a stronger link to depression than lux. Random theory... Maybe depressed people are highly sensitive to the world's problems/suffering both in immediate and wider environment, their antennae picks up this instability that manifests as internal trauma, anxiety etc. Someone should do an experiment to see if isolation for a few weeks influences depression rate; avoidance of all news, no phone, no internet, no people. Get ready for "Study finds extreme boredom effective anti-depressant".

analogic 9y ago

They still use go.com? Lol, everytime I see that domain all I can think of is it being the place where Infoseek went to die.

lkrubner 9y ago

Should we assume that the light itself is causing the depression? Or should we assume that the light leads to poor sleep, and then the poor sleep is what triggers the depression?

Scipio_Afri 9y ago
The second one I think is the most likely assumption, but the most reasonable/obvious can be wrong which is why studies are important.
WalterSear 9y ago
And how does poor sleep causing depression square with sleep deprivation alleviating it?
- cellularmitosis 9y ago
  I could imagine that being chronically deprived of quality sleep is different than skipping an entire circadian cycle once per week. Edit: I recently made the mistake (for a few months) of taking my medication before bed, rather than in the morning. This included vitamin D. Guess what happens when the body gets a dose of vitamin D at night? No quality sleep for you! So I certainly sympathize with the quest for quality sleep.
- psyc 9y ago
  A controlled sleep fast may help temporarily. Chronic deprivation beyond your control is a disaster.
- Nomentatus 9y ago
  Good question, however a rush of steroids for one day incidentally boosting mood isn't inconsistent - it's just the body treating that day as something of an emergency situation. A swallow doesn't make a summer.
Izkata 9y ago
Currently on the front page: "The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500 A quick skim makes it sound a bit more complicated, only working on people who already have depression. May answer the question though.

davidw 9y ago

One thing I miss from Italy are real shutters: https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/ https://blog.therealitaly.com/2007/08/09/window-technology/

r00fus 9y ago
We got "blackout curtains". Relatively easy to install and is 95% darker than blinds.
- hocuspocus 9y ago
  The first result on Google search points to Ikea Marjun curtains, I bought those when I lived in Berlin and I guarantee you that it was impossible to get my bedroom really dark. On the other hand with proper outdoor shutters or roller blinds[0] you can easily get a room pitch-black. [0] https://www.schenk-sonnenschutztechnik.de/uploads/tx_frsupersized/rollladen-intego-schenk-sonnenschutztechnik-1-1600.jpg https://www.schenk-sonnenschutztechnik.de/uploads/tx_frsuper...
- trendia 9y ago
  European shutters are pretty nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KePLmie7lE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KePLmie7lE
  - weinzierl 9y ago
    The type shown in the video is pretty common in Germany and besides its ability to make a room pitch black it also provides a decent protection against burglary. Many, if not most of these shutters are certified for resistance class RC2 according to DIN EN 1627. The title of the video is wrong, by the way. It is not Rouladen, which would be a dish of filled rolled meat, but Rollladen. Rollladen is literally rolling shutter and it is really written with three l in a row.
    - davidw 9y ago
      In Italy they're "tapparelle", and I think they're a fantastic thing to have for your house. With even mediocre ones you can get a room really dark even if it's pretty light outside.

tzs 9y ago

Sort of OT, but this reminds me of a question I've not been able to find an answer for on blue light and sleep. (OT because the article says nothing about blue light). One way light affects sleep is via the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (ipRGCs). These are a third kind of photoreceptor in our retinas, distinct from the more well known rods and cones. These are most sensitive to blue light. They signal the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) in the brain with information about the amount of light they are receiving. The SCN controls circadian rhythms, and uses the changes in light as the day ends as reported by the ipRGCs to do things like to keep things that should be synchronized to the day/night cycle in sync. Blue light in the evening can mess this up because it makes it look like it is still daylight, as far as far as the SCN can can tell from what it gets from the ipRGCs. What I have not found anywhere is whether this is based on absolute or relative amount of blue light. Does the SCN look for blue light to fall below a certain fixed threshold, or does it do something like note the peak level of blue light during the day, and then look for the blue light to fall below a certain fraction of that? The reason this matters is that more and more of our devices that we want to use in the evening supply blue light. We try to counter that by adding features that change the color spectrum in the evening to something with less blue. But that doesn't always work. Computers usually can do it, and often so can tablets and phones. I don't think many TVs have such a setting, though. If the SCN works with absolute levels, fixing the devices (or wearing blue light filtering glasses) might be the only answer if you aren't able to stop using your devices in the evening. But if it is based on relative levels, keyed off the peak daytime level...then instead of fixing all the devices it might be possible to address the problem by greatly boosting blue levels in the middle of the day, so that your evening device levels will be far enough down from the peak to not affect anything.

sitkack 9y ago
I haven't done any rigorous science, but having zero screen time at least 2hrs before sleep and having warm orange lighting definitely allows me to have long uninterrupted sleep. Heavy screen usage before bedtime has the same effect as drinking on my sleep patterns.
n1000 9y ago
The f.lux website has a ‚research‘ section with plenty of reading material on the issue: https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html

jimnotgym 9y ago

Quick plug I started curating a list of things that may help depression yesterday over on Github https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression I just added this

O_nlogn 9y ago
Please consider including links to local crisis helplines e.g. [1] and [2]. Doubtless some people in the midst of a crisis will discover this resource, and it is really important that they are aware there is immediate help available. [3] [1] https://www.samaritans.org/ https://www.samaritans.org/ [2] https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ [3] https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/mental-health-and-suicide-reporting-guidelines/ https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/mental-health-and-suicide-report...
- dprsthrwy 9y ago
  On the other hand you may turn away depressed people who are not in a crisis because they don't want to be associated with the idea of suicide when their main problem is they have no will or energy to do anything ever. You might end up hurting these people by constantly mentioning suicide whenever they finally get the guts to learn about their depression. "Oh, you depressed? Here, read about suicide! Let me scare you back into your hole!" -a once depressed person whose recovery was delayed by the association described
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    You both make good points. I opened an issue to discuss. Please have your say. https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression/issues/1 https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression/issues/1

Herodotus38 9y ago

In prehistoric times, before shelter was common, would a half or full moon cause the same effect? I just wonder about how actually natural a pitch black sleep is.

Turing_Machine 9y ago
Perhaps that's where the legends about people going wonky at the time of the full moon came from? Werewolves, "lunatics", etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic Just a speculation.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
schiffern 9y ago
>I just wonder about how actually natural a pitch black sleep is. "Pitch black" is another thing entirely, but the moon is much dimmer than the light levels this study reports as causing depression (5 lux). And it's pretty dim (equivalent to stray light from a streetlamp). >The intensity of moonlight varies greatly depending on its phase, but even the full Moon typically provides only about 0.05–0.1 lux illumination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight
- Herodotus38 9y ago
  Thanks for putting it into perspective. 5 lux is quite a lot to me.
nkoren 9y ago
I've spent prolonged periods living away from artificial light. In such situations, the lunar cycle has a profound effect on your psychology and sociology. New moons are quiet times, and wildest parties happen at full moon. Makes me think that "lunatic" is probably a very, very, very ancient concept.
Nomentatus 9y ago
iPRGCs are scattered widely across the retina - presumably for just this reason, to quickly discount light from a full moon.

gargarplex 9y ago

I added a real blackout curtain to my room and really noticed a difference in the quality of my sleep and my general mood. It was designed to really black out all light... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZJ88DY/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ZJ88DY/

sitkack 9y ago
Ikea also has a great assortment of easy to install blackout shades, http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70349252/ http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/70349252/
- maxander 9y ago
  What we ought to have is a blackout shade that will automatically roll down at night and back up in the morning, when we want sunlight to start waking us up.
  - joshuata 9y ago
    I use a combination of blackout shades, Philips hue lights, and the Sleep cycle app on my phone. It starts the lights very dim and red at the beginning of a 20 minute wake up window, slowly brightens them, and then rings the alarm whenever I start rolling over. It is a little complicated, but it has worked well for a few years now.
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    Someday, most windows will have an internally plate between the glazings that is moved up at night automatically. A Phillips light-alarm clock does the other half of the job, now, for me.
  - jpalomaki 9y ago
    Look for motorized roller curtain. I have those in two bedrooms. They are actually very convenient, even though I just have the remote control and not any automation. DIY persons can also find instructions for getting the shades from IKEA and motors from Ebay. Mine are using motors/control from Somfy. Those have at least worked flawlessly for several years. For the roller curtains there are also models which have "things" on the sides where the curtain slides in. This blocks the light that would otherwise shine in from there. If this is not an option, should look for curtain which is dark from the outside. This should also help a little bit.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Light does not happen by magic and tends to not occur alone. I would be very leery of asserting cause and effect here.

Nomentatus 9y ago
There's a very long bibliography stretching back more than a decade and including at least one mouse model of depression. It's not just one study.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I am not readily finding this bibliography. If you would be so kind as to link to it (and perhaps copy/paste if it is paywalled.)
  - Nomentatus 9y ago
    pubmed dot com https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=light+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=light+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ipRGCs+depression https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ipRGCs+depression
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      Thank you.
  - joveian 9y ago
    There are a bunch of results for "light at night" on Google Scholar and Pubmed, but I'm not sure of specific references. This particular study (a manuscript is available on sci-hub[0]) does not have a discussion of this topic (other stuff that could come with the light) at all and two reviews I searched for "noise" and "sound" did not seem to have a discussion either. I'm sure some of the many studies over the years have at least actively changed the lighting and measured melatonin, but it is sloppy to not even discuss the topic. In the case of this study, a figure at the end of the manuscript shows that most of the light exposure (averaged) happens in the hour after bed and hour before getting up, so that seems like a big clue that it isn't just a case of light at night (ideally they would divide light exposure into three segments and look at each). Also, the study started with people not showing depressive symptoms but it didn't consider if light exposure had changed and the study seems on the small (863 people) and short (median 2 year follow up) side if light (and whatever else) exposure had not changed. For that matter, it sounds like they only measured light exposure and sleep for two days and assume that is representative of the whole period. It sounds like the depression scale[1] was given at the beginning and end of the study and looking at number or duration of episodes could have a different result. Also, it isn't clear that depressive symptoms here necessarily correspond with depression or if they are signs of a sleep disorder. All in all, this isn't a good study to look at individually. [0] https://twin.sci-hub.tw/ef19202b216d8e1af61a7ced2510e060/obayashi2017.pdf https://twin.sci-hub.tw/ef19202b216d8e1af61a7ced2510e060/oba... [1] https://consultgeri.org/try-this/general-assessment/issue-4.pdf https://consultgeri.org/try-this/general-assessment/issue-4....

lhnz 9y ago

I currently sleep in a room with zero natural light. I can't tell you whether this makes me more or less likely to be depressed (I think it pales in comparison to other things in my life), however I do always keep a low light on -- without this, it would be very difficult to find my bearings when I wake up. Also, it is extremely difficult to wake up when it's completely pitch-black.

chrisper 9y ago
Get a wake up light.

bitL 9y ago

Slightly off-topic: I've noticed if I work all night (e.g. yesterday writing a paper proposal for a conference), and I manage to stay up all the way until dawn, I literally get euphoria once Sun glances through windows. I can be super tired, but it shots my mood up considerably.