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> Since 2010, Bloomberg New Energy Finance data show, the price of lithium-ion battery packs have fallen 79 percent. But aren't Li batteries irrelevant for pow

> Since 2010, Bloomberg New Energy Finance data show, the price of lithium-ion battery packs have fallen 79 percent. But aren't Li batteries irrelevant for power plants? The advantage of Li is power/weight, but weight and size are no issue for power plants.

Analemma_ 9y ago
They're not for the plants themselves, they're for the grid storage that is being installed to replace "peaker plants" (the ones that supply energy when demand is unusually high)
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  Size and weight is still not an issue for such a purpose. Only capacity and cost.
  - imtringued 9y ago
    Presumably it is cheaper to build one big factory to mass produce a single battery type than multiple smaller factories each with their own specialised battery technology.
osteele 9y ago
With the 79% decrease, Li-Ion batteries are now cheaper per cycle than lead acid. They still have greater installation cost, but lower lifetime cost. This means any further reductions in Li-Ion cost make battery storage more competitive compared to on-peak generation. This may be a kind of “consumer electronics” dividend that is now paying off in EV and grid storage use cases. [1] https://medium.com/solar-microgrid/battery-showdown-lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-1d37a1998287 https://medium.com/solar-microgrid/battery-showdown-lead-aci... [2] https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-vs-lead-acid-cost-analysis/ https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion...
- Gibbon1 9y ago
  Key thing, consumers prioritize initial capital cost. Where for utilities it's all about total cost. Utilities probably also like that you can do continuous maintenance on battery systems. Servicing involves two men and a forklift vs multi day/week shutdowns. Friend is a millwright. Worked on a 7F gas turbine installation. They fired it up and it threw it's blades.
  - osteele 9y ago
    That’s an excellent point about consumer versus utility behaviors. The Tesla/SolarCity model, of basically renting out solar panel installation in exchange for a cut of the future energy value, is an interesting approach to incentivizing a different consumer behavior. This article https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/20/teslas-powerwall-showing-path-for-home-energy-stor.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/20/teslas-powerwall-s... describes a similar program applied to home energy storage.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      Tesla is abandoning that model. And note that the overwhelming majority of their grid battery business is selling to power companies, not consumers.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        The model made sense when residential systems were much more expensive, beyond the reach of the average homeowner even with the 30% tax credit. With the cost of systems declining so quickly, the PPA/lease model is no longer necessary.
Gibbon1 9y ago
I think what's happening to lithium ion technology is it's moving from a premium technology to a non-premium. I think for utility grade stuff what they care about is actual cost per kwh of storage. Meaning how much does it cost to cycle a kwh or power in and out of the system. If it's low enough you make money. I think the issue with other technologies is they wear out too fast under full discharge cycling.

Analemma_ 9y ago

They're not for the plants themselves, they're for the grid storage that is being installed to replace "peaker plants" (the ones that supply energy when demand is unusually high)

skookumchuck 9y ago
Size and weight is still not an issue for such a purpose. Only capacity and cost.
- imtringued 9y ago
  Presumably it is cheaper to build one big factory to mass produce a single battery type than multiple smaller factories each with their own specialised battery technology.

osteele 9y ago

With the 79% decrease, Li-Ion batteries are now cheaper per cycle than lead acid. They still have greater installation cost, but lower lifetime cost. This means any further reductions in Li-Ion cost make battery storage more competitive compared to on-peak generation. This may be a kind of “consumer electronics” dividend that is now paying off in EV and grid storage use cases. [1] https://medium.com/solar-microgrid/battery-showdown-lead-acid-vs-lithium-ion-1d37a1998287 https://medium.com/solar-microgrid/battery-showdown-lead-aci... [2] https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-vs-lead-acid-cost-analysis/ https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion...

Gibbon1 9y ago
Key thing, consumers prioritize initial capital cost. Where for utilities it's all about total cost. Utilities probably also like that you can do continuous maintenance on battery systems. Servicing involves two men and a forklift vs multi day/week shutdowns. Friend is a millwright. Worked on a 7F gas turbine installation. They fired it up and it threw it's blades.
- osteele 9y ago
  That’s an excellent point about consumer versus utility behaviors. The Tesla/SolarCity model, of basically renting out solar panel installation in exchange for a cut of the future energy value, is an interesting approach to incentivizing a different consumer behavior. This article https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/20/teslas-powerwall-showing-path-for-home-energy-stor.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/20/teslas-powerwall-s... describes a similar program applied to home energy storage.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    Tesla is abandoning that model. And note that the overwhelming majority of their grid battery business is selling to power companies, not consumers.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      The model made sense when residential systems were much more expensive, beyond the reach of the average homeowner even with the 30% tax credit. With the cost of systems declining so quickly, the PPA/lease model is no longer necessary.

Gibbon1 9y ago

I think what's happening to lithium ion technology is it's moving from a premium technology to a non-premium. I think for utility grade stuff what they care about is actual cost per kwh of storage. Meaning how much does it cost to cycle a kwh or power in and out of the system. If it's low enough you make money. I think the issue with other technologies is they wear out too fast under full discharge cycling.