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Feds Bust CEO Allegedly Selling Custom BlackBerry Phones to Sinaloa Drug Cartel

165 points by uiri 9y ago

msh 9y ago
They don’t seem to be the brightest criminals: Multiple undercover agents, posing as drug traffickers looking to expand their operations, also met Ramos in Las Vegas in February 2017, the complaint continues. “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint.
- pessimizer 9y ago
  I don't think they actually said the part in the brackets. It's an editorial insertion, and probably from the person who wrote this article rather than from the transcript being quoted.
  - natrik 9y ago
    “We made it—we made it specifically for this shit too,” probably said something like that
    - pessimizer 9y ago
      "I'm doing this [murdering kittens], just to make a little extra cash until I graduate." They're just "adding context" aka begging the question; they're not censoring the word "shit."
      - dmoy 9y ago
        The square brackets are usually just used to give context from previous sentences / paragraphs that would not be obvious otherwise. So e.g. "He [James] paid him [John].". Where both names were in a previous paragraph. If we read the previous paragraph in the article that makes sense, because it was literally clarifying questions about the efficacy of using it for drug trafficking.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      So basically "our product is specifically designed for your application, please give us your money"? Yeah, because people never stretch the truth when trying to make a sale
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        Stretching the truth should have consequences too.
  - rm999 9y ago
    It's in the original complaint filed by federal prosecutors. See page 16: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4406486/Vincent-Ramos-Complaint.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4406486/Vincent-R...
chrisbennet 9y ago
I wonder if they will give fine the perp and give him deferred prosecution if he promises not to do it again. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/hsbc-holdings-plc-and-hsbc-bank-usa-na-admit-anti-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/hsbc-holdings-plc-and-hsbc-ba...
- jakevn 9y ago
  A recommended read for anyone looking to find out more about the near-immunity that the corporate elite enjoy: The Chickenshit Club: Why the Justice Department Fails to Prosecute Executives
  - woolvalley 9y ago
    By executive do they mean big co executive? The pattern with most regulators & prosecutors is they go after the easy to prosecute. If your hard to prosecute then they stop doing it because it doesn't look good for their career numbers.
    - jakevn 9y ago
      Yes, sorry, that is what I meant by "corporate elite". I'm not so sure it applies in this case as I don't really see the corp in question as being big (relatively speaking). To your point, this is basically what the book covers. It is the logical conclusion of both fiduciary duty and the overwhelming effect that strong legal representation has on the justice system. At this extreme, the legal representation outright prevents prosecution instead of simply affecting the outcome.
gagabity 9y ago
Interesting that they remove the camera and mic.
- blattimwind 9y ago
  Camera, built-in mic and accelerometer are the first and most important bits you want to lose.
  - comboy 9y ago
    Right, now imagine you are the NSA. And you have access to tons of android devices. If you filter out those which surprisingly don't seem to have these parts - now these are interesting for sure.
    - tritium 9y ago
      Feature phones that run android will lack an accelerometer, might lack a camera, but any phone without a microphone would certainly be strange. Nonetheless, there's nothing preventing a system bus from reporting that a virtual device exists, even if there's no physical hardware to match. Besides, as soon as you plug a headset into the audio jack, the microphone becomes available.
      - comboy 9y ago
        You can reason about what kind of device is this and in general basically look for statistical patterns. Which is what they seem to be pretty good at. If you have modified device then it's likely that you are an outlier.
        throwaway2048 9y ago
        I doubt all devices are constantly reporting their capabilities to the NSA so they can look for outliers.
        9y ago
gerhardi 9y ago
So it seems that there would be a good market for simple secure handheld devices straight from the factory... Why are these shady custom shops necessary for this?
- goatsi 9y ago
  >In addition to removing the microphone and camera from BlackBerry devices Most people want to be able to use their smartphone as a phone. I also don't see a device without any sort of camera being that popular.
- wmf 9y ago
  So how's the Blackphone doing lately? It looks like they don't want to sell to the general public now.
  - k_sh 9y ago
    They seem to still be popular over at the DoD.
saas_co_de 9y ago
This is what happens when you refuse to backdoor your devices for the US government.
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  Really? That's the problem you see here?
gagabity 9y ago
Raises a lot of questions, how is PGP more secure than your normal EndToEnd Encrypted messenger? Why are the Feds afraid of one but not the other?
- lettuce 9y ago
  PGP might be easier to clone (duplicate private/master keys?) without tipping off the other party like many end-to-end messengers do when you switch devices. B told Justice Janice Dillon that he sent a message to Kim on a Blackberry that had been cloned from one belonging to the UN associate. http://vancouversun.com/news/crime/former-gangster-says-dhak-contracted-un-to-kill-enemies http://vancouversun.com/news/crime/former-gangster-says-dhak...
- msh 9y ago
  According to the article the company had been in operations since 2007 or there about, I dont think there was any end2end encrypted mobile messenger back then and they have properly just continued what worked for them.
derefr 9y ago
Yesterday I was pondering what the ultimate “side-piece” phone would be (that is, a secondary phone you use for OPSEC when leading a second life.) Unlike a burner phone, you wouldn’t constantly be throwing it away (just getting new SIMs every once in a while) so cheapness would not be the #1 priority—but it would still be #2 or #3, since this is still a whole 'nother phone you have in addition to the phone you usually use. And you’d want it to be ergonomic to text on, so a 1990s candybar dumbphone wouldn’t quite cut it. It wouldn’t need apps like a modern smartphone (other than maybe messaging apps.) And battery life would be important—it's often hard to find private time to charge a secret phone—so a big screen would be a drawback, not a positive. Ultimately, I figured that an old Blackberry would be perfect for this use-case. Guess I deduced correctly.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Both the SIM and the phone's serial number are available to the network. An analyst looking to correlate your activities can do so trivially. In fact, this is how Italian investigators were able to prove the link between a CIA cell and the American embassy. No one used the same SIM to talk to both groups, but they did use the same phone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
  - derefr 9y ago
    Yes, sure, the IMEI is accessible; this is why I referred to it as a "side-piece phone" rather than a "burner phone." They're separate OPSEC profiles: evading a state attacker, vs. anonymizing some of your traffic from the view of a private individual attacker (e.g. your spouse.)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - mseebach 9y ago
      Step 0 is to correctly identify the threat model. If you're just hiding an affair from your spouse, any old smartphone on a prepaid contract will do.
pg_bot 9y ago
IANAL however I read through the affidavit and while I agree that they had probable cause to arrest the CEO I don't believe this case is a slam dunk. A fairly competent defense attorney should be able to convincingly claim that the firm was incidental to any crimes committed. Mr Ramos certainly didn't do himself any favors, but this isn't an open and shut case by any means.
_tulpa 9y ago
Same article, but the non-AMP link: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a34b7b/phantom-secure-sinaloa-drug-cartel-encrypted-blackberry https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a34b7b/phantom-se...
mattnewport 9y ago
I'm still unclear from the article what the actual alleged crime is here? They sold a product that was not illegal to perform a function (encrypted communication) that is not (yet) illegal but it is alleged it was used to arrange illegal activity by a third party? Ford's CEO isn't arrested when a mustang is used as a getaway car in a bank robbery, even though speed and acceleration are features they sell the product on that are clearly useful to an escaping bank robber. McDonald's CEO isn't arrested when a cartel hitman eats a Big Mac while waiting outside his target's house. When exactly is the line crossed? Is it when explaining how the features of the product are useful to a client who intends to engage in illegal activity?
- ipsum2 9y ago
  The article addresses this: > Crucially, the complaint alleges that Ramos and Phantom were not simply incidental to a crime, like Apple might be when a criminal uses an iPhone, but that the company was specifically created to facilitate criminal activity.
  - mattnewport 9y ago
    I don't think it answers my question. There is an implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to facilitate criminal activity. At what point is the line crossed? There are products with seemingly fewer 'legitimate' uses that don't appear to cross this line such as lock picks, police radar detectors, miniature surveillance equipment, etc. I'm genuinely curious what the legal basis for determining when selling a legal product with a legal function becomes illegal is. It can't be merely knowingly selling to a suspected criminal. Is it knowingly selling to a suspected criminal who you expect to use it to evade law enforcement? How is that to be established other than through dubious entrapment activities as seem to have been used here?
    - landryraccoon 9y ago
      The article answers this question: > “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. You can't say that you intended to make the device for legal uses if you explicitly tell an undercover cop you intended it to be used for illegal purposes. So to answer your question, if you openly confess that the intent of your device is to be used illegally, that's a smoking gun.
sixtypoundhound 9y ago
This line shocked me: “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. Rule #1 for managing products with grey-market applications: never acknowledge the existence of the illegal market (or any activity that opens you to up to material civil suits). That instantly exposes you to all kinds of criminal and civil liability; the fact an individual said it vs. "the company" likely makes you personally liable as well, the corporate veil won't help you much here. You're not making cheap guns for gang members to kill people with, you're developing affordable security options for lower income citizens who are exercising their 2nd amendment rights. You're not creating tools that help criminals hide their past, you're helping good people clear their record from legitimate mistakes and errors... or evade privacy invading snoops... etc. Always talk about the white hat applications, never the sinister ones...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ericjang 9y ago
  Out of curiosity - how do people who employ these marketing tactics reconcile this? do they drink their own Kool-Aid or do they willfully turn a blind eye to the grey/blackhat clients because they don't want to think about it?
  - zitterbewegung 9y ago
    Who knows? That would depend on the person and the situation.
  - fleitz 9y ago
    You can't turn a blind eye to it. It's like being a gun dealer, if someone says they want to use it to harm someone you have to not sell to them. That's why gun dealers always ask what the gun is for to avoid negligence. Basically what the law would require is for the CEO to ask and them to say give a reason that's not illegal, like corporate security, etc.
  - 9y ago
joering2 9y ago
Recently I decided to have some fun "going dark" with my phone update. I wonder how far I got: - I purchased iPhone8 from the store using cash. I gave fake name to print out receipt. - I purchased empty sim card from eBay with cash at $5 value - Finally on my way back, I picked up $500 pre-paid card from Wallmart. The lady at checkout wanted my ID because as she said "the purchase is over $500 with cash" (I had few other items) but I complained that this is BS and she probably doesn't like my accent, and she let me go without authentication. - I brought all this home when I have whole house covered with VPN from one of top 5 VPN providers (altho I connect thru USA - any connection from outside makes life much more complicated, like multiple verification screens etc) - The sim card company website gave me some issues using prepaid card; but as I remembered that gift cards should not be used for ongoing charges, I just unchecked "autopay every month" and it went thru. - I registered mail.com email address without phone # or optional recovery email - I fired up new iPhone with new empty sim card. I went thru setup process using new email. Here it was harder. iTunes did not like my prepaid card. I had to use my VOIP app (not Google, an app I use from Netherlands) to call iTunes and complain. I think it was a matter of one flag because it took them five seconds. I had verified complete iTunes account with valid payment method on it. - Of course I turned off as much localization/icloud/blahblah stuff I could - I decided not to use my new phone and new number for incoming or outgoing numbers due to number matching techniques "they" use; instead I use a VOIP app to call my people. - I did sign up to my regular mailbox but did it from BlueMail iPhone app, not the native one. I wonder how hard it will be or how long it will take "them" to match me back... Edit: altho this is my last "iteration" with regular phone. NExt one on my list is https://www.silentcircle.com/ https://www.silentcircle.com/
- gruez 9y ago
  feels like it would have been simpler to buy an android phone with an unlockable bootloader, install lineageos (which doesn't have gapps), and side-load all the apps you need. at the very least you skip all the apple id/itunes related headache.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  > I purchased iPhone8 from the store using cash. I gave fake name to print out receipt. Did you buy this from the Apple store? What precautions were taken to avoid their obvious & hidden cameras > I purchased empty sim card from eBay with cash at $5 value Now the dealer you bought said SIM from has your name, address, and email, plus some card details from PayPal. > Finally on my way back, I picked up $500 pre-paid card from Wallmart. The lady at checkout wanted my ID because as she said "the purchase is over $500 with cash" (I had few other items) but I complained that this is BS and she probably doesn't like my accent, and she let me go without authentication. Uhh, Walmart shares their security camera feeds with multiple private companies: http://fortune.com/2015/11/09/wal-mart-facial-recognition/ http://fortune.com/2015/11/09/wal-mart-facial-recognition/ They may also be sharing them with law enforcement. > I brought all this home when I have whole house covered with VPN from one of top 5 VPN providers (altho I connect thru USA - any connection from outside makes life much more complicated, like multiple verification screens etc) So now your VPN provider is a failure point, as they can totally screw you over: https://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/ https://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/ Use Tor if you want (as close as your going to get to) bulletproof anonymity. Youtube even works over Tor! > The sim card company website gave me some issues using prepaid card; but as I remembered that gift cards should not be used for ongoing charges, I just unchecked "autopay every month" and it went thru. The cell carrier and anyone interested can do a Home Location Register lookup (aka HLR) and find out which tower and cell your phone is registered on. Worse yet, your carrier or MVNO can use certain E911 features to locate your phone down to a few hundred feet. > I fired up new iPhone with new empty sim card. I went thru setup process using new email. Here it was harder. iTunes did not like my prepaid card. I had to use my VOIP app (not Google, an app I use from Netherlands) to call iTunes and complain. I think it was a matter of one flag because it took them five seconds. I had verified complete iTunes account with valid payment method on it. Don't bet on the country of origin to protect you. Most VOIP providers do jack to protect your calls even part of the way in transit, and that call was definitely intercepted since it came a provider overseas: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-on-callers-without-courts.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-... > Of course I turned off as much localization/icloud/blahblah stuff I could Not that this will save you, these are essentially "user comfort" toggles that turn off features, but don't stop the data your looking to protect from leaking. Intel and AMD both do this too with Computrace and their various management engine implementations. - I decided not to use my new phone and new number for incoming or outgoing numbers due to number matching techniques "they" use; instead I use a VOIP app to call my people. So back to my prior point, since you picked a foreign VOIP carrier, your ensuring the NSA has all of your calls recorded! - I did sign up to my regular mailbox but did it from BlueMail iPhone app, not the native one. Apple puts much more of an emphasis on end user security than nearly any other company, which is part of why Siri is still garbage and their neural network/AI based offerings all center on operating on device. The built in mail app is likely more secure than BlueMail.
netrap 9y ago
Weirdly, I'm curious if there are others selling phones like this legally? I guess Blackphone is one.
michaelbuckbee 9y ago
This has a lot of parallels to the guy arrested for making secret compartments in cars. The compartments weren’t specifically for anything illegal but close enough. https://www.wired.com/2013/03/alfred-anaya/ https://www.wired.com/2013/03/alfred-anaya/
- sah2ed 9y ago
  Alfred Anaya's conviction is quite a story. He really got the book thrown at him and then some, while much bigger fish in the drug trade got half of his 24 year sentence because they opted to bargain with the government. Thanks for the link.
mr_spothawk 9y ago
the purpose of the phones is so that nobody can intercept details and eavesdrop on you, and the CEO is getting taken down for ... "drugs".
2_listerine_pls 9y ago
If they really cared about drugs: - They could have stopped Afghan opium farmers. - They could use airborne spectrometry to detect Colombian/Mexican crops. - They could map out possible drug dealers in American land using their phone patterns alone.
wpdev_63 9y ago
There's an argument to be made to have these types of phones with the exposure of the Vault 7[0] program. If they somehow come away from this(they won't), this would be some great advertising. "It's so secure that the head of an international drug cartel uses it". [0] https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/ https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/
908087 9y ago
Vice appears to be acting as an FBI propaganda outlet these days if this article is any indication. The way they imply that producing devices for privacy conscious users is "shady" made my skin crawl.

165 points by uiri 9y ago

msh 9y ago

They don’t seem to be the brightest criminals: Multiple undercover agents, posing as drug traffickers looking to expand their operations, also met Ramos in Las Vegas in February 2017, the complaint continues. “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint.

pessimizer 9y ago
I don't think they actually said the part in the brackets. It's an editorial insertion, and probably from the person who wrote this article rather than from the transcript being quoted.
- natrik 9y ago
  “We made it—we made it specifically for this shit too,” probably said something like that
  - pessimizer 9y ago
    "I'm doing this [murdering kittens], just to make a little extra cash until I graduate." They're just "adding context" aka begging the question; they're not censoring the word "shit."
    - dmoy 9y ago
      The square brackets are usually just used to give context from previous sentences / paragraphs that would not be obvious otherwise. So e.g. "He [James] paid him [John].". Where both names were in a previous paragraph. If we read the previous paragraph in the article that makes sense, because it was literally clarifying questions about the efficacy of using it for drug trafficking.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    So basically "our product is specifically designed for your application, please give us your money"? Yeah, because people never stretch the truth when trying to make a sale
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Stretching the truth should have consequences too.
- rm999 9y ago
  It's in the original complaint filed by federal prosecutors. See page 16: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4406486/Vincent-Ramos-Complaint.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4406486/Vincent-R...

chrisbennet 9y ago

I wonder if they will give fine the perp and give him deferred prosecution if he promises not to do it again. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/hsbc-holdings-plc-and-hsbc-bank-usa-na-admit-anti-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/hsbc-holdings-plc-and-hsbc-ba...

jakevn 9y ago
A recommended read for anyone looking to find out more about the near-immunity that the corporate elite enjoy: The Chickenshit Club: Why the Justice Department Fails to Prosecute Executives
- woolvalley 9y ago
  By executive do they mean big co executive? The pattern with most regulators & prosecutors is they go after the easy to prosecute. If your hard to prosecute then they stop doing it because it doesn't look good for their career numbers.
  - jakevn 9y ago
    Yes, sorry, that is what I meant by "corporate elite". I'm not so sure it applies in this case as I don't really see the corp in question as being big (relatively speaking). To your point, this is basically what the book covers. It is the logical conclusion of both fiduciary duty and the overwhelming effect that strong legal representation has on the justice system. At this extreme, the legal representation outright prevents prosecution instead of simply affecting the outcome.

gagabity 9y ago

Interesting that they remove the camera and mic.

blattimwind 9y ago
Camera, built-in mic and accelerometer are the first and most important bits you want to lose.
- comboy 9y ago
  Right, now imagine you are the NSA. And you have access to tons of android devices. If you filter out those which surprisingly don't seem to have these parts - now these are interesting for sure.
  - tritium 9y ago
    Feature phones that run android will lack an accelerometer, might lack a camera, but any phone without a microphone would certainly be strange. Nonetheless, there's nothing preventing a system bus from reporting that a virtual device exists, even if there's no physical hardware to match. Besides, as soon as you plug a headset into the audio jack, the microphone becomes available.
    - comboy 9y ago
      You can reason about what kind of device is this and in general basically look for statistical patterns. Which is what they seem to be pretty good at. If you have modified device then it's likely that you are an outlier.
      - throwaway2048 9y ago
        I doubt all devices are constantly reporting their capabilities to the NSA so they can look for outliers.
        9y ago

gerhardi 9y ago

So it seems that there would be a good market for simple secure handheld devices straight from the factory... Why are these shady custom shops necessary for this?

goatsi 9y ago
>In addition to removing the microphone and camera from BlackBerry devices Most people want to be able to use their smartphone as a phone. I also don't see a device without any sort of camera being that popular.
wmf 9y ago
So how's the Blackphone doing lately? It looks like they don't want to sell to the general public now.
- k_sh 9y ago
  They seem to still be popular over at the DoD.

saas_co_de 9y ago

This is what happens when you refuse to backdoor your devices for the US government.

FLUX-YOU 9y ago
Really? That's the problem you see here?

gagabity 9y ago

Raises a lot of questions, how is PGP more secure than your normal EndToEnd Encrypted messenger? Why are the Feds afraid of one but not the other?

lettuce 9y ago
PGP might be easier to clone (duplicate private/master keys?) without tipping off the other party like many end-to-end messengers do when you switch devices. B told Justice Janice Dillon that he sent a message to Kim on a Blackberry that had been cloned from one belonging to the UN associate. http://vancouversun.com/news/crime/former-gangster-says-dhak-contracted-un-to-kill-enemies http://vancouversun.com/news/crime/former-gangster-says-dhak...
msh 9y ago
According to the article the company had been in operations since 2007 or there about, I dont think there was any end2end encrypted mobile messenger back then and they have properly just continued what worked for them.

derefr 9y ago

Yesterday I was pondering what the ultimate “side-piece” phone would be (that is, a secondary phone you use for OPSEC when leading a second life.) Unlike a burner phone, you wouldn’t constantly be throwing it away (just getting new SIMs every once in a while) so cheapness would not be the #1 priority—but it would still be #2 or #3, since this is still a whole 'nother phone you have in addition to the phone you usually use. And you’d want it to be ergonomic to text on, so a 1990s candybar dumbphone wouldn’t quite cut it. It wouldn’t need apps like a modern smartphone (other than maybe messaging apps.) And battery life would be important—it's often hard to find private time to charge a secret phone—so a big screen would be a drawback, not a positive. Ultimately, I figured that an old Blackberry would be perfect for this use-case. Guess I deduced correctly.

closeparen 9y ago
Both the SIM and the phone's serial number are available to the network. An analyst looking to correlate your activities can do so trivially. In fact, this is how Italian investigators were able to prove the link between a CIA cell and the American embassy. No one used the same SIM to talk to both groups, but they did use the same phone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
- derefr 9y ago
  Yes, sure, the IMEI is accessible; this is why I referred to it as a "side-piece phone" rather than a "burner phone." They're separate OPSEC profiles: evading a state attacker, vs. anonymizing some of your traffic from the view of a private individual attacker (e.g. your spouse.)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - mseebach 9y ago
    Step 0 is to correctly identify the threat model. If you're just hiding an affair from your spouse, any old smartphone on a prepaid contract will do.

pg_bot 9y ago

IANAL however I read through the affidavit and while I agree that they had probable cause to arrest the CEO I don't believe this case is a slam dunk. A fairly competent defense attorney should be able to convincingly claim that the firm was incidental to any crimes committed. Mr Ramos certainly didn't do himself any favors, but this isn't an open and shut case by any means.

_tulpa 9y ago

Same article, but the non-AMP link: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a34b7b/phantom-secure-sinaloa-drug-cartel-encrypted-blackberry https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a34b7b/phantom-se...

mattnewport 9y ago

I'm still unclear from the article what the actual alleged crime is here? They sold a product that was not illegal to perform a function (encrypted communication) that is not (yet) illegal but it is alleged it was used to arrange illegal activity by a third party? Ford's CEO isn't arrested when a mustang is used as a getaway car in a bank robbery, even though speed and acceleration are features they sell the product on that are clearly useful to an escaping bank robber. McDonald's CEO isn't arrested when a cartel hitman eats a Big Mac while waiting outside his target's house. When exactly is the line crossed? Is it when explaining how the features of the product are useful to a client who intends to engage in illegal activity?

ipsum2 9y ago
The article addresses this: > Crucially, the complaint alleges that Ramos and Phantom were not simply incidental to a crime, like Apple might be when a criminal uses an iPhone, but that the company was specifically created to facilitate criminal activity.
- mattnewport 9y ago
  I don't think it answers my question. There is an implication that selling a product designed for privacy and secure communication is inherently intending to facilitate criminal activity. At what point is the line crossed? There are products with seemingly fewer 'legitimate' uses that don't appear to cross this line such as lock picks, police radar detectors, miniature surveillance equipment, etc. I'm genuinely curious what the legal basis for determining when selling a legal product with a legal function becomes illegal is. It can't be merely knowingly selling to a suspected criminal. Is it knowingly selling to a suspected criminal who you expect to use it to evade law enforcement? How is that to be established other than through dubious entrapment activities as seem to have been used here?
  - landryraccoon 9y ago
    The article answers this question: > “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. You can't say that you intended to make the device for legal uses if you explicitly tell an undercover cop you intended it to be used for illegal purposes. So to answer your question, if you openly confess that the intent of your device is to be used illegally, that's a smoking gun.

sixtypoundhound 9y ago

This line shocked me: “We made it—we made it specifically for this [drug trafficking] too,” Ramos told undercover agents, according to a transcript included in the complaint. Rule #1 for managing products with grey-market applications: never acknowledge the existence of the illegal market (or any activity that opens you to up to material civil suits). That instantly exposes you to all kinds of criminal and civil liability; the fact an individual said it vs. "the company" likely makes you personally liable as well, the corporate veil won't help you much here. You're not making cheap guns for gang members to kill people with, you're developing affordable security options for lower income citizens who are exercising their 2nd amendment rights. You're not creating tools that help criminals hide their past, you're helping good people clear their record from legitimate mistakes and errors... or evade privacy invading snoops... etc. Always talk about the white hat applications, never the sinister ones...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ericjang 9y ago
Out of curiosity - how do people who employ these marketing tactics reconcile this? do they drink their own Kool-Aid or do they willfully turn a blind eye to the grey/blackhat clients because they don't want to think about it?
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  Who knows? That would depend on the person and the situation.
- fleitz 9y ago
  You can't turn a blind eye to it. It's like being a gun dealer, if someone says they want to use it to harm someone you have to not sell to them. That's why gun dealers always ask what the gun is for to avoid negligence. Basically what the law would require is for the CEO to ask and them to say give a reason that's not illegal, like corporate security, etc.
- 9y ago

joering2 9y ago

Recently I decided to have some fun "going dark" with my phone update. I wonder how far I got: - I purchased iPhone8 from the store using cash. I gave fake name to print out receipt. - I purchased empty sim card from eBay with cash at $5 value - Finally on my way back, I picked up $500 pre-paid card from Wallmart. The lady at checkout wanted my ID because as she said "the purchase is over $500 with cash" (I had few other items) but I complained that this is BS and she probably doesn't like my accent, and she let me go without authentication. - I brought all this home when I have whole house covered with VPN from one of top 5 VPN providers (altho I connect thru USA - any connection from outside makes life much more complicated, like multiple verification screens etc) - The sim card company website gave me some issues using prepaid card; but as I remembered that gift cards should not be used for ongoing charges, I just unchecked "autopay every month" and it went thru. - I registered mail.com email address without phone # or optional recovery email - I fired up new iPhone with new empty sim card. I went thru setup process using new email. Here it was harder. iTunes did not like my prepaid card. I had to use my VOIP app (not Google, an app I use from Netherlands) to call iTunes and complain. I think it was a matter of one flag because it took them five seconds. I had verified complete iTunes account with valid payment method on it. - Of course I turned off as much localization/icloud/blahblah stuff I could - I decided not to use my new phone and new number for incoming or outgoing numbers due to number matching techniques "they" use; instead I use a VOIP app to call my people. - I did sign up to my regular mailbox but did it from BlueMail iPhone app, not the native one. I wonder how hard it will be or how long it will take "them" to match me back... Edit: altho this is my last "iteration" with regular phone. NExt one on my list is https://www.silentcircle.com/ https://www.silentcircle.com/

gruez 9y ago
feels like it would have been simpler to buy an android phone with an unlockable bootloader, install lineageos (which doesn't have gapps), and side-load all the apps you need. at the very least you skip all the apple id/itunes related headache.
StudentStuff 9y ago
> I purchased iPhone8 from the store using cash. I gave fake name to print out receipt. Did you buy this from the Apple store? What precautions were taken to avoid their obvious & hidden cameras > I purchased empty sim card from eBay with cash at $5 value Now the dealer you bought said SIM from has your name, address, and email, plus some card details from PayPal. > Finally on my way back, I picked up $500 pre-paid card from Wallmart. The lady at checkout wanted my ID because as she said "the purchase is over $500 with cash" (I had few other items) but I complained that this is BS and she probably doesn't like my accent, and she let me go without authentication. Uhh, Walmart shares their security camera feeds with multiple private companies: http://fortune.com/2015/11/09/wal-mart-facial-recognition/ http://fortune.com/2015/11/09/wal-mart-facial-recognition/ They may also be sharing them with law enforcement. > I brought all this home when I have whole house covered with VPN from one of top 5 VPN providers (altho I connect thru USA - any connection from outside makes life much more complicated, like multiple verification screens etc) So now your VPN provider is a failure point, as they can totally screw you over: https://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/ https://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/ Use Tor if you want (as close as your going to get to) bulletproof anonymity. Youtube even works over Tor! > The sim card company website gave me some issues using prepaid card; but as I remembered that gift cards should not be used for ongoing charges, I just unchecked "autopay every month" and it went thru. The cell carrier and anyone interested can do a Home Location Register lookup (aka HLR) and find out which tower and cell your phone is registered on. Worse yet, your carrier or MVNO can use certain E911 features to locate your phone down to a few hundred feet. > I fired up new iPhone with new empty sim card. I went thru setup process using new email. Here it was harder. iTunes did not like my prepaid card. I had to use my VOIP app (not Google, an app I use from Netherlands) to call iTunes and complain. I think it was a matter of one flag because it took them five seconds. I had verified complete iTunes account with valid payment method on it. Don't bet on the country of origin to protect you. Most VOIP providers do jack to protect your calls even part of the way in transit, and that call was definitely intercepted since it came a provider overseas: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-on-callers-without-courts.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-... > Of course I turned off as much localization/icloud/blahblah stuff I could Not that this will save you, these are essentially "user comfort" toggles that turn off features, but don't stop the data your looking to protect from leaking. Intel and AMD both do this too with Computrace and their various management engine implementations. - I decided not to use my new phone and new number for incoming or outgoing numbers due to number matching techniques "they" use; instead I use a VOIP app to call my people. So back to my prior point, since you picked a foreign VOIP carrier, your ensuring the NSA has all of your calls recorded! - I did sign up to my regular mailbox but did it from BlueMail iPhone app, not the native one. Apple puts much more of an emphasis on end user security than nearly any other company, which is part of why Siri is still garbage and their neural network/AI based offerings all center on operating on device. The built in mail app is likely more secure than BlueMail.

netrap 9y ago

Weirdly, I'm curious if there are others selling phones like this legally? I guess Blackphone is one.

michaelbuckbee 9y ago

This has a lot of parallels to the guy arrested for making secret compartments in cars. The compartments weren’t specifically for anything illegal but close enough. https://www.wired.com/2013/03/alfred-anaya/ https://www.wired.com/2013/03/alfred-anaya/

sah2ed 9y ago
Alfred Anaya's conviction is quite a story. He really got the book thrown at him and then some, while much bigger fish in the drug trade got half of his 24 year sentence because they opted to bargain with the government. Thanks for the link.

mr_spothawk 9y ago

the purpose of the phones is so that nobody can intercept details and eavesdrop on you, and the CEO is getting taken down for ... "drugs".

2_listerine_pls 9y ago

If they really cared about drugs: - They could have stopped Afghan opium farmers. - They could use airborne spectrometry to detect Colombian/Mexican crops. - They could map out possible drug dealers in American land using their phone patterns alone.

wpdev_63 9y ago

There's an argument to be made to have these types of phones with the exposure of the Vault 7[0] program. If they somehow come away from this(they won't), this would be some great advertising. "It's so secure that the head of an international drug cartel uses it". [0] https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/ https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/

908087 9y ago

Vice appears to be acting as an FBI propaganda outlet these days if this article is any indication. The way they imply that producing devices for privacy conscious users is "shady" made my skin crawl.