5 ms·

This whole piece reads like it's written by someone who has never set foot in an actual, general-population prison. The scene it sets is of a collegial environ

by jawns 9y ago

This whole piece reads like it's written by someone who has never set foot in an actual, general-population prison. The scene it sets is of a collegial environment of highly motivated people who yearn to learn, and would commit themselves to pursuing a college degree, but for lack of access. In reality, a large swath of the incarcerated population is not motivated to pursue additional education, or really any program that might help them get their lives back on track. Part of it is because they frequently have underlying mental-health problems, addictions, learning disorders, or intellectual disabilities that often go undiagnosed or untreated in prison, and that must be addressed before they can get clear-headed enough to pursue their GED, let alone a college degree. Or they see a high-school or college diploma as pointless, either because they know the deck's stacked against them, or they don't know any other way of living. So, it may be completely true that higher education is correlated with lower rates of recidivism, but that doesn't mean that increasing access to education _causes_ lower recidivism. Rather, it likely means that people who are able and motivated to pursue higher education have lower rates and lower severities of mental-health issues or learning disorders, and a lack of those underlying issues predicts lower recidivism.

whataretensors 9y ago
Prison was put in place as a catch all when we didn't understand all the ways humans could be broken. Now we have a better idea, but we don't use that information. Instead low iq career criminals are incarcerated with high iq crimes of passion like Hans Reiser. Then you add drug addicts and child molesters to the mix. Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. If he could have full access to a computer he would have likely continued to learn and build things. Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society together into a broken system who's main role is retribution, which IMO is a human instinct we should fight against not codify. It seems a lot like the public school system in it's general lack of differentiation in regards to inputs(prisoners). In terms of a learning system, it's diverged.
- foldr 9y ago
  > Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. Why not? He killed one already for no good reason. His high IQ just means he has less of an excuse. It doesn't make him a better person.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - homonculus1 9y ago
    I'm sick of the apologia for these unforgivable criminals. By all means separate them from each other based on circumstances, for their own good, but if you murder people you're unfit to live in society, full stop.
    - derefr 9y ago
      The GP's point, I think, is that "unfit to live in society" doesn't mean "must live in some sort of hell-hole." Prison can just be another, slightly worse society. Like penal colonies were, before we stopped doing those.
      - homonculus1 9y ago
        That's fair, perhaps I misread it.
      - wils1245 9y ago
        I thought the point was that we should look at IQ in determining punishment and risk of recidivism. Which is a deeply misguided idea.
        nate_meurer 9y ago
        I can see how you got that, but it's not at all how I read it. I don't think whataretensors is proposing that Hans Resier's abilities should lessen his punishment, but rather that we should allow him to continue using his abilities during his incarceration, and possibly contribute to society instead of being dead weight.
- cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
  >Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. You seriously think that he wouldn't kill again if his next wife or lover "betrayed him" in his mind? If you feel that way, why don't we just give his children a pass to murder him because he took their mother from them? >If he could have full access to a computer he would have likely continued to learn and build things. Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society He murdered his wife, a crime to which he freely plead guilty. He is the dregs of society.
- kamranjon 9y ago
  Aside from this being a morally unhinged argument that you're trying to make here - Reiserfs had some pretty glaring issues involving locks and disk corruption that were never really addressed. I think it's probably best he focus on his issues rather than half baked file systems for the remainder of his sentence.
- adamsea 9y ago
  > Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society You’re really one for the common man, huh? In all seriousness though, whether or not Reisner would be a productive member of society if released, isn’t the right thing to do to focus first on identifying and freeing people on death row who are wrongfully convicted? And, if we are speaking of justice, nonviolent offenders in prison because of draconian drug laws? And then after that get around to violent offenders whose chance of recidivism is low? https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
  - adamsea 9y ago
    Oh - and, if it’s squandered human potential we care about, meaningful reentry programs for those who have served their time, and allowing them to vote?
- JauntTrooper 9y ago
  I wasn’t familiar with the Reiser case, but just read it. He murdered his wife, hid the body, lied and denied it vigorously in court, was found guilty of premeditated (first degree) murder, and bargained it down to second degree murder charges by showing the police where he buried her body. I think a life sentence is reasonable for that.
  - rlanday 9y ago
    He was offered and declined a plea bargain that would’ve given him the minimum sentence of three years: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/10/reiser_rejected_voluntary_manslaughter_plea/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/10/reiser_rejected_vol... The guy’s a delusional moron… Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Time_in_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Time_in_prison “In July 2012, a jury awarded Reiser's children $60 million against their father for the death of Nina Reiser. Reiser acted as his own attorney during the trial and tried to argue that he killed his wife to protect their children.” It’s unclear that a parole board will find him to be a very sympathetic character.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Where did all that money come from? Moron is right.
- jhbadger 9y ago
  He killed his wife because she wanted to leave him. How can we know he wouldn't act the same way in any future relationship turned sour?
beloch 9y ago
Colleges have admission and performance standards. Why not prison colleges? Select inmates motivated to learn and send them to a separate facility. If they don't take advantage of the opportunity or become a problem, send them back. Peers matter. If you stick a dumb kid who screwed up in a prison full of hardened career criminals, you're likely going to get a career criminal. Surround him with other dumb kids trying to figure out how to recover from their mistakes and something different can happen. A separate prison college serves this purpose well too.
- epicureanideal 9y ago
  Maybe YC can fund a "better prisons" startup? I'd be happy to be involved in such a project.
  - throwaway2048 9y ago
    id prefer to keep profit motives well away from things like the prison system.
    - LeanderK 9y ago
      Is YC only funding for-profit startups?
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        No.
    - majos 9y ago
      Unfortunately, that cat's been out of the bag for decades.
crb002 9y ago
The prison as a monastic/craftsman environment would be closer to reality. Programming, poetry, pottery ... the craft that is mastered is broad. The monastic side of healthy food, exercise, and solitude by choice (a few hours of solitary as a privilege). You raise inmate seratonin and they become functional members of society again.
Fjolsvith 9y ago
>In reality, a large swath of the incarcerated population is not motivated to pursue additional education, or really any program that might help them get their lives back on track. Maybe your point is valid for some state prisons, but in my experience it is not that true. During my state incarceration in Alaska, the education directors had me develop and teach computer classes. There were waiting lists of inmates who wanted to take them. I taught basic computer knowledge (hardware and operating systems), Office program usage (Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Access), and VB.NET programming. I tried to get the University of Alaska to allow me to take some courses by correspondence, but they were not interested. All I could do was get one of the math professors to send me a few dated textbooks. In the federal prison system, there were Vocational Training classes that were always full. I took the V.T. Drafting course in one and then tutored it. That class taught 4 months of board drafting and then 6 months of AutoCAD. It had about 45 students enrolled all the time. Sadly, I discovered on release that drafting is no longer a profession due to the new modelling packages that enable engineers to lay out their drawings nearly instantly. However, I can still read blueprints, and can whip one up in a jiffy when a customer needs one for a shed they want to buy from me. There were no options for college classes in the federal system without having some wealth to pay for them.

by jawns 9y ago

whataretensors 9y ago

Prison was put in place as a catch all when we didn't understand all the ways humans could be broken. Now we have a better idea, but we don't use that information. Instead low iq career criminals are incarcerated with high iq crimes of passion like Hans Reiser. Then you add drug addicts and child molesters to the mix. Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. If he could have full access to a computer he would have likely continued to learn and build things. Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society together into a broken system who's main role is retribution, which IMO is a human instinct we should fight against not codify. It seems a lot like the public school system in it's general lack of differentiation in regards to inputs(prisoners). In terms of a learning system, it's diverged.

foldr 9y ago
> Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. Why not? He killed one already for no good reason. His high IQ just means he has less of an excuse. It doesn't make him a better person.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- homonculus1 9y ago
  I'm sick of the apologia for these unforgivable criminals. By all means separate them from each other based on circumstances, for their own good, but if you murder people you're unfit to live in society, full stop.
  - derefr 9y ago
    The GP's point, I think, is that "unfit to live in society" doesn't mean "must live in some sort of hell-hole." Prison can just be another, slightly worse society. Like penal colonies were, before we stopped doing those.
    - homonculus1 9y ago
      That's fair, perhaps I misread it.
    - wils1245 9y ago
      I thought the point was that we should look at IQ in determining punishment and risk of recidivism. Which is a deeply misguided idea.
      - nate_meurer 9y ago
        I can see how you got that, but it's not at all how I read it. I don't think whataretensors is proposing that Hans Resier's abilities should lessen his punishment, but rather that we should allow him to continue using his abilities during his incarceration, and possibly contribute to society instead of being dead weight.
cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
>Hans Reiser would likely never kill another person in his life if he was free. You seriously think that he wouldn't kill again if his next wife or lover "betrayed him" in his mind? If you feel that way, why don't we just give his children a pass to murder him because he took their mother from them? >If he could have full access to a computer he would have likely continued to learn and build things. Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society He murdered his wife, a crime to which he freely plead guilty. He is the dregs of society.
kamranjon 9y ago
Aside from this being a morally unhinged argument that you're trying to make here - Reiserfs had some pretty glaring issues involving locks and disk corruption that were never really addressed. I think it's probably best he focus on his issues rather than half baked file systems for the remainder of his sentence.
adamsea 9y ago
> Instead we dump him with the rest of the dregs of society You’re really one for the common man, huh? In all seriousness though, whether or not Reisner would be a productive member of society if released, isn’t the right thing to do to focus first on identifying and freeing people on death row who are wrongfully convicted? And, if we are speaking of justice, nonviolent offenders in prison because of draconian drug laws? And then after that get around to violent offenders whose chance of recidivism is low? https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
- adamsea 9y ago
  Oh - and, if it’s squandered human potential we care about, meaningful reentry programs for those who have served their time, and allowing them to vote?
JauntTrooper 9y ago
I wasn’t familiar with the Reiser case, but just read it. He murdered his wife, hid the body, lied and denied it vigorously in court, was found guilty of premeditated (first degree) murder, and bargained it down to second degree murder charges by showing the police where he buried her body. I think a life sentence is reasonable for that.
- rlanday 9y ago
  He was offered and declined a plea bargain that would’ve given him the minimum sentence of three years: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/10/reiser_rejected_voluntary_manslaughter_plea/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/10/reiser_rejected_vol... The guy’s a delusional moron… Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Time_in_prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser#Time_in_prison “In July 2012, a jury awarded Reiser's children $60 million against their father for the death of Nina Reiser. Reiser acted as his own attorney during the trial and tried to argue that he killed his wife to protect their children.” It’s unclear that a parole board will find him to be a very sympathetic character.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    Where did all that money come from? Moron is right.
jhbadger 9y ago
He killed his wife because she wanted to leave him. How can we know he wouldn't act the same way in any future relationship turned sour?

beloch 9y ago

Colleges have admission and performance standards. Why not prison colleges? Select inmates motivated to learn and send them to a separate facility. If they don't take advantage of the opportunity or become a problem, send them back. Peers matter. If you stick a dumb kid who screwed up in a prison full of hardened career criminals, you're likely going to get a career criminal. Surround him with other dumb kids trying to figure out how to recover from their mistakes and something different can happen. A separate prison college serves this purpose well too.

epicureanideal 9y ago
Maybe YC can fund a "better prisons" startup? I'd be happy to be involved in such a project.
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  id prefer to keep profit motives well away from things like the prison system.
  - LeanderK 9y ago
    Is YC only funding for-profit startups?
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      No.
  - majos 9y ago
    Unfortunately, that cat's been out of the bag for decades.

crb002 9y ago

The prison as a monastic/craftsman environment would be closer to reality. Programming, poetry, pottery ... the craft that is mastered is broad. The monastic side of healthy food, exercise, and solitude by choice (a few hours of solitary as a privilege). You raise inmate seratonin and they become functional members of society again.

Fjolsvith 9y ago

>In reality, a large swath of the incarcerated population is not motivated to pursue additional education, or really any program that might help them get their lives back on track. Maybe your point is valid for some state prisons, but in my experience it is not that true. During my state incarceration in Alaska, the education directors had me develop and teach computer classes. There were waiting lists of inmates who wanted to take them. I taught basic computer knowledge (hardware and operating systems), Office program usage (Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Access), and VB.NET programming. I tried to get the University of Alaska to allow me to take some courses by correspondence, but they were not interested. All I could do was get one of the math professors to send me a few dated textbooks. In the federal prison system, there were Vocational Training classes that were always full. I took the V.T. Drafting course in one and then tutored it. That class taught 4 months of board drafting and then 6 months of AutoCAD. It had about 45 students enrolled all the time. Sadly, I discovered on release that drafting is no longer a profession due to the new modelling packages that enable engineers to lay out their drawings nearly instantly. However, I can still read blueprints, and can whip one up in a jiffy when a customer needs one for a shed they want to buy from me. There were no options for college classes in the federal system without having some wealth to pay for them.