4 ms·

All I need is a programmer

62 points by eVizitei 18y ago

samratjp 18y ago
In a similar situation actually! I like your approach!
ssharp 18y ago
This same story seems to get rehashed weekly here. Without insight into what the business is, you can't really judge how important a programmer is. For some, it's paramount. For others, it's not as important. Interestingly enough, a lot of people get stuck in some sort of weird trap: Their idea is worth so much to them that they won't give up equity yet their idea is worth so little that they won't invest in it.
- RichardPrice 18y ago
  That's a very interesting paradoxical situation you have pointed out - the weird trap, I mean.
aggieben 18y ago
See another similar thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105
fendale 18y ago
I work for a big company where they believe in the cog-in-a-machine idea so much they actually implemented a process they coined 'the factory process' with the emphasis on being able to swap in team of developers at the drop of a hat. Noone had read the mythical man month, or Spolsky's 'Hitting the highlights' (or named something similar to that). I can testify first hand that treating software engineer like cogs is a road to slippage, bugs and all the good engineers leaving!
wheels 18y ago
Got the same thing on Sunday. Usually I find the easiest thing to say, in cases where I'm pretty certain there's not going to be common ground, to recommend a third party who they're not friends with and won't assume that it'll be a favor.
daniel-cussen 18y ago
Has anyone seen a post saying "All I need is a business guy?"
- raganwald 18y ago
  Maybe not a post, but I know several entrepreneurs who say--on a regular basis--"All I need is a sales guy," "All I need is a marketing guy," and/or "All I need is a bizdev guy." In each case, they believe that the hard part of their business is the part they are doing/have done, and teh sales/marketing/bizdev is a slam dunk.
  - jeroen 18y ago
    We all misjudge that which we don't understand. And if we did understand, we could do it ourselves.
    - yters 18y ago
      Good point, too bad nested comments don't float the original comment up higher.
  - thwarted 18y ago
    I just had a conversation with someone today about adding editorial content to a site. There is no content to post yet, but it's time to get cracking on writing the code to display it! As if writing the code is the hardest part of this. If we wanted it to take 15 minutes, we could install wordpress and be done: but it would be an empty site without all the other non-programming "business" things that need to be done before one can actually say they have a blog, ahem, editorial section.
mechanical_fish 18y ago
Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and offers Y where Y << X. And so on. Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming right out and saying that they expected the work for free, so forget it... they're not being very polite or very smart. A better response would be "Gosh, I hadn't realized it was more than an hour or two of work, and my budget is only $75. Thanks for setting me straight -- I'll have to rethink this. Can you recommend any $10-an-hour grade school students?" And then you put on your Helpless Newb Face and hope that your programmer friend takes pity on you and offers to work at half wages, or offers you some free advice on how to set up a cheap Wordpress site, or something. As sure as the sun shines, people -- especially your "friends" -- are never going to offer what you're actually worth. (For one thing, they have little way of knowing. Given that most software engineers can barely estimate how long their projects will take or how much the result is worth, how can you expect inexperienced folks to do it?) You just have to do what this guy did: Ask for what you think you're worth, and be gracious but firm if they say something stupid or insulting in return.
- derefr 18y ago
  If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?
  - mechanical_fish 18y ago
    Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think you will get. Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10. Following rule zero can be very hard. It takes a lot of social skill to deflect your opponent's request for an opening bid. I'm not sure rule zero even applies in a lot of situations -- for example, as a consultant I often just use rule one, because your customers will often be scared away if you act like the canonical Oracle salesperson and attempt to determine the approximate size of their bank account before you even name your rate. But you can give them a rate and then negotiate the project scope or schedule. ;) I'm cribbing all of this from Dawson's Secrets of Power Negotiating, BTW. I find that book kind of cheesy -- perhaps because, like many techies, I'm a terrible negotiator by nature -- but it's a fun way to get inside the mind of a sales guy. I wish I'd read it before I went to China. Chinese shopkeepers saw me coming a mile away. I console myself with the knowledge that the profits from my few small purchases are probably putting some very nice Chinese kids through college now... Plus, my Chinese friend was highly entertained by the sight of my negotiating, and that's worth something.
Hexstream 18y ago
"The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so productive that a single person can get things done without having to work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team." That's IT! I just decided to quit Lisp and program in C from now on. And all this time I wondered why I have no social skills... But now everything will be fine!!!
- Jesin 18y ago
  If this is your goal, C isn't the best choice either. I'd suggest Java or C#.
  - cstejerean 18y ago
    C is a pretty good goal. It takes a lot of effort to get anything working in C, so the only reasonable approach is to find others to collaborate with. It "forces" you into being social.
- gruseom 18y ago
  You're quoting a statement by Ron Garret which I find rather thought provoking and not at all ridiculous. But what puzzles me is, why are you quoting it here?
  - Hexstream 18y ago
    It was just a joke in good earth. But now I see how you read it. I'll try to double-check my post for ambiguïties next time.
goodkarma 18y ago
If you believe that code is poetry, then programmers are artists.
Tichy 18y ago
If they know exactly what they want, the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly. It doesn't really matter.
- edw519 18y ago
  "If they know exactly what they want" That sure would be nice. Too bad it almost never happens. "the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly" I couldn't disagree more. Read this http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html and see if that changes your thinking. Joel refutes your statement much better than I ever could. (My favorite line: Five Antonio Salieris won't produce Mozart's Requiem. Ever. Not if they work for 100 years.)
  - Tichy 18y ago
    I only skimmed it, but I don't think it applies. Who says those guys wanted to start a Software Company? Quote: "This is a conversation about software companies, shrinkwrap software, where the company's success or failure is directly a result of the quality of their code." Also the comparison to Brad Pitt really makes no sense. People don't go to see Brad Pitt moves because he is an x times better actor than others. Not saying he is bad, but surely some cheaper nobodies could be found who acts well, too. But they wouldn't be famous and therefore would not draw a crowd. Same with Salieri. Sorry, but there are zillions of programmers who could program a Twitter, for example. Sure, there are some kinds of programs that most programmers would be unable to write, but it doesn't apply to most Web Apps. Even if the programmer thing would make a difference, the business guys still could not possibly care, because they have no way of knowing if a programmer is good or not. Think about building a house. Once the architecture is done, surely there are lots of building teams who can build it. Sure, some will screw it up, but most won't. Also, I think in the beginning the business guys might be looking for a prototype. If it takes off, they can still worry about finding rockstar programmers.
    - edw519 18y ago
volida 18y ago
you can either spend that energy and reply to the person try explaining why you worth X you are requesting (assumuning they are not naive and willing to understand) or write a blog post a of type "all I need is a XYZ"
zapnap 18y ago
This is typical of the sort of person who believes that the value of something is entirely the idea, rather than in the implementation of the idea. Unfortunately, that mindset never actually accomplishes anything. Ideas aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Unless it's nice paper.
- Jesin 18y ago
  New Math anyone?
wumi 18y ago
Programming is not the only profession where this takes place
- wanorris 18y ago
  In particular in the web industry, there's a lot of programmers who have "done all the hard stuff" and now just need a designer to "make it look pretty,"despite the fact that good design with a focus on usability is likely to change the structure and flow of the application. I mention it, because I've caught myself thinking this way.
vikram 18y ago
The lack of cash for the gig isn't really the problem here. I think the problem is that the person asking for work is poor at business. If he is expecting this guy to work for free, he should make him feel super important, ask for advice and not really ask him to do the work. Assuming that someone else has nothing else going on and will spend their evenings/weekends on your project for free, just points out that he doesn't have a clue about how people work. My advice to anyone looking to hire a programmer for free, try a subtle form of flattery and see if you can get a good deal. Alternatively, learn programming.
sdurkin 18y ago
In my opinion the software is the business. Without that, its just an idea on paper. And the marketable value of an idea is zero.
paul9290 18y ago
I have a programmer who due to visa issues is stuck in one state. We have worked together on a startup remotely 4 over a yr now. His full time gig sent him over to work only in one state. Now we are backed we want him to join us where our backers and I am, but immigration is backed up where it will take a year 2 approve his move. We are now looking for LAMP developers (2 yr experience) in and around the Philly area. I wouldnt say all we need is a programmer, rather another team member who can join us locally, while he continues working remotely! Interested drop me mail at paul9290 <at> yahoo.com. It's a paid position with equity!

62 points by eVizitei 18y ago

In a similar situation actually! I like your approach!

This same story seems to get rehashed weekly here. Without insight into what the business is, you can't really judge how important a programmer is. For some, it's paramount. For others, it's not as important. Interestingly enough, a lot of people get stuck in some sort of weird trap: Their idea is worth so much to them that they won't give up equity yet their idea is worth so little that they won't invest in it.

RichardPrice 18y ago
That's a very interesting paradoxical situation you have pointed out - the weird trap, I mean.

aggieben 18y ago

See another similar thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105

fendale 18y ago

I work for a big company where they believe in the cog-in-a-machine idea so much they actually implemented a process they coined 'the factory process' with the emphasis on being able to swap in team of developers at the drop of a hat. Noone had read the mythical man month, or Spolsky's 'Hitting the highlights' (or named something similar to that). I can testify first hand that treating software engineer like cogs is a road to slippage, bugs and all the good engineers leaving!

wheels 18y ago

Got the same thing on Sunday. Usually I find the easiest thing to say, in cases where I'm pretty certain there's not going to be common ground, to recommend a third party who they're not friends with and won't assume that it'll be a favor.

daniel-cussen 18y ago

Has anyone seen a post saying "All I need is a business guy?"

raganwald 18y ago
Maybe not a post, but I know several entrepreneurs who say--on a regular basis--"All I need is a sales guy," "All I need is a marketing guy," and/or "All I need is a bizdev guy." In each case, they believe that the hard part of their business is the part they are doing/have done, and teh sales/marketing/bizdev is a slam dunk.
- jeroen 18y ago
  We all misjudge that which we don't understand. And if we did understand, we could do it ourselves.
  - yters 18y ago
    Good point, too bad nested comments don't float the original comment up higher.
- thwarted 18y ago
  I just had a conversation with someone today about adding editorial content to a site. There is no content to post yet, but it's time to get cracking on writing the code to display it! As if writing the code is the hardest part of this. If we wanted it to take 15 minutes, we could install wordpress and be done: but it would be an empty site without all the other non-programming "business" things that need to be done before one can actually say they have a blog, ahem, editorial section.

mechanical_fish 18y ago

Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and offers Y where Y << X. And so on. Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming right out and saying that they expected the work for free, so forget it... they're not being very polite or very smart. A better response would be "Gosh, I hadn't realized it was more than an hour or two of work, and my budget is only $75. Thanks for setting me straight -- I'll have to rethink this. Can you recommend any $10-an-hour grade school students?" And then you put on your Helpless Newb Face and hope that your programmer friend takes pity on you and offers to work at half wages, or offers you some free advice on how to set up a cheap Wordpress site, or something. As sure as the sun shines, people -- especially your "friends" -- are never going to offer what you're actually worth. (For one thing, they have little way of knowing. Given that most software engineers can barely estimate how long their projects will take or how much the result is worth, how can you expect inexperienced folks to do it?) You just have to do what this guy did: Ask for what you think you're worth, and be gracious but firm if they say something stupid or insulting in return.

derefr 18y ago
If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think you will get. Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10. Following rule zero can be very hard. It takes a lot of social skill to deflect your opponent's request for an opening bid. I'm not sure rule zero even applies in a lot of situations -- for example, as a consultant I often just use rule one, because your customers will often be scared away if you act like the canonical Oracle salesperson and attempt to determine the approximate size of their bank account before you even name your rate. But you can give them a rate and then negotiate the project scope or schedule. ;) I'm cribbing all of this from Dawson's Secrets of Power Negotiating, BTW. I find that book kind of cheesy -- perhaps because, like many techies, I'm a terrible negotiator by nature -- but it's a fun way to get inside the mind of a sales guy. I wish I'd read it before I went to China. Chinese shopkeepers saw me coming a mile away. I console myself with the knowledge that the profits from my few small purchases are probably putting some very nice Chinese kids through college now... Plus, my Chinese friend was highly entertained by the sight of my negotiating, and that's worth something.

Hexstream 18y ago

"The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so productive that a single person can get things done without having to work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team." That's IT! I just decided to quit Lisp and program in C from now on. And all this time I wondered why I have no social skills... But now everything will be fine!!!

Jesin 18y ago
If this is your goal, C isn't the best choice either. I'd suggest Java or C#.
- cstejerean 18y ago
  C is a pretty good goal. It takes a lot of effort to get anything working in C, so the only reasonable approach is to find others to collaborate with. It "forces" you into being social.
gruseom 18y ago
You're quoting a statement by Ron Garret which I find rather thought provoking and not at all ridiculous. But what puzzles me is, why are you quoting it here?
- Hexstream 18y ago
  It was just a joke in good earth. But now I see how you read it. I'll try to double-check my post for ambiguïties next time.

goodkarma 18y ago

If you believe that code is poetry, then programmers are artists.

Tichy 18y ago

If they know exactly what they want, the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly. It doesn't really matter.

edw519 18y ago
"If they know exactly what they want" That sure would be nice. Too bad it almost never happens. "the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly" I couldn't disagree more. Read this http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html and see if that changes your thinking. Joel refutes your statement much better than I ever could. (My favorite line: Five Antonio Salieris won't produce Mozart's Requiem. Ever. Not if they work for 100 years.)
- Tichy 18y ago
  I only skimmed it, but I don't think it applies. Who says those guys wanted to start a Software Company? Quote: "This is a conversation about software companies, shrinkwrap software, where the company's success or failure is directly a result of the quality of their code." Also the comparison to Brad Pitt really makes no sense. People don't go to see Brad Pitt moves because he is an x times better actor than others. Not saying he is bad, but surely some cheaper nobodies could be found who acts well, too. But they wouldn't be famous and therefore would not draw a crowd. Same with Salieri. Sorry, but there are zillions of programmers who could program a Twitter, for example. Sure, there are some kinds of programs that most programmers would be unable to write, but it doesn't apply to most Web Apps. Even if the programmer thing would make a difference, the business guys still could not possibly care, because they have no way of knowing if a programmer is good or not. Think about building a house. Once the architecture is done, surely there are lots of building teams who can build it. Sure, some will screw it up, but most won't. Also, I think in the beginning the business guys might be looking for a prototype. If it takes off, they can still worry about finding rockstar programmers.
  - edw519 18y ago

volida 18y ago

you can either spend that energy and reply to the person try explaining why you worth X you are requesting (assumuning they are not naive and willing to understand) or write a blog post a of type "all I need is a XYZ"

zapnap 18y ago

This is typical of the sort of person who believes that the value of something is entirely the idea, rather than in the implementation of the idea. Unfortunately, that mindset never actually accomplishes anything. Ideas aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Unless it's nice paper.

Jesin 18y ago
New Math anyone?

wumi 18y ago

Programming is not the only profession where this takes place

wanorris 18y ago
In particular in the web industry, there's a lot of programmers who have "done all the hard stuff" and now just need a designer to "make it look pretty,"despite the fact that good design with a focus on usability is likely to change the structure and flow of the application. I mention it, because I've caught myself thinking this way.

vikram 18y ago

The lack of cash for the gig isn't really the problem here. I think the problem is that the person asking for work is poor at business. If he is expecting this guy to work for free, he should make him feel super important, ask for advice and not really ask him to do the work. Assuming that someone else has nothing else going on and will spend their evenings/weekends on your project for free, just points out that he doesn't have a clue about how people work. My advice to anyone looking to hire a programmer for free, try a subtle form of flattery and see if you can get a good deal. Alternatively, learn programming.

sdurkin 18y ago

In my opinion the software is the business. Without that, its just an idea on paper. And the marketable value of an idea is zero.

paul9290 18y ago

I have a programmer who due to visa issues is stuck in one state. We have worked together on a startup remotely 4 over a yr now. His full time gig sent him over to work only in one state. Now we are backed we want him to join us where our backers and I am, but immigration is backed up where it will take a year 2 approve his move. We are now looking for LAMP developers (2 yr experience) in and around the Philly area. I wouldnt say all we need is a programmer, rather another team member who can join us locally, while he continues working remotely! Interested drop me mail at paul9290 <at> yahoo.com. It's a paid position with equity!