7 ms·

The James Damore Google manifesto and the Youtube creator demonetization censorship comes to mind right now. Granted that's only one company, Google, but I thin

by yosho 9y ago

The James Damore Google manifesto and the Youtube creator demonetization censorship comes to mind right now. Granted that's only one company, Google, but I think there's a general feeling that if you're not on the left leaning political spectrum, you're going to have your opinions shuttered.

gameswithgo 9y ago
Google has also fired two liberal employees for being insufferable (that are known/public). So perhaps it is more a case of Google firing insufferable people rather than particular views.
- rapsey 9y ago
  No account of events leading to Demores firing portrayed him as insufferable.
  - keo92znx 9y ago
    His manifesto alone paints such a picture. No anecdotes from others necessary. One coder with no unique personal success outside being hireable by Google painting the majority of the species as lesser, with cherry picked stats that ignore human history and social trends? Edit: I don’t care about what numbers he put in his memo. It’s the idea of peddling such a thing in the first place by someone who has no authority Saying math says we should behave a certain way is enabling authoritarian rule, IMO Demore forgets that he’s one of billions. He can think what he wants using his numbers, but it’s not iron clad and means nothing given that the data is generated in a highly curated social structure It’s less “his math is off” and more “why do I care who this Demore fellow is? Because he has math? Meh lots of people do. It’s not very interesting math and theory.” That’s not likely to connect with this crowd. Pretty self-aggrandizing and full of shit, IMO. Not something a “place of business” as Google has painted itself in these situations, should support
    - MadSudaca 9y ago
      maybe you should read the memo
    - rapsey 9y ago
      > painting the majority of the species as lesser, He did that? Where?
      - keo92znx 9y ago
        He made comments outside his paper that women just aren’t as good at men or more of them would find satisfaction in this I’m not linking it because it’s not like this is an esoteric notion that requires extreme vetting It’s one a-hole who in the big picture isn’t important to anyone but himself. Something I think this forum and society as a whole have lost sight of I have my own take on it. Add some variables he excluded and his whole thesis goes to shit. But it still says nothing but math is like English; it can be made to produce a result that tells whatever story we want Some folks seem to think every formula peddles some inherent truth of reality, which is nonsense
        stcredzero 9y ago
        He made comments outside his paper that women just aren’t as good at men or more of them would find satisfaction in this By that reasoning, there seems to be evidence that women are contextually better than men at medicine and healthcare. https://www.fastcompany.com/3044934/why-are-these-3-stem-fields-dominated-by-women https://www.fastcompany.com/3044934/why-are-these-3-stem-fie...
    - wand3r 9y ago
      to be fair your opinion is less scientifically rigorous than the actual scientific papers he cited which was his formulation of data less than opinion. You can disagree with him & those papers but I do think a blanket dismissal of him as a person is difficult to infer from a single inter-office memo
      - 9y ago
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Objectively untrue, given counterexamples I've seen from Google insiders.
threatofrain 9y ago
What ties James Damore to positions or values of conservatism, other than him saying so? What core conservative value or worldview is at play here?
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I suspect the worldview difference is individualism vs collectivism.
  - threatofrain 9y ago
    I thought it was the view that women and men were different, and that an embrace of that fact would reveal askew sex ratios for different occupations. Also, what group claims individualism as their value? Liberals or conservatives? I suspect many people would say they are pro individual freedom and rights when framed as individualism vs collectivism. Also, do conservatives champion individualism or community?
  - api 9y ago
    That isn't the operating dichotomy anymore. Most modern conservatives are collectivists. Nationalism, racial identity movements, and religious traditionalism are all to varying degrees collectivist. Any talk of saving our culture, race, etc. is collectivist.
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
I don't think it's a direct intolerance of other opinions because they're not the same but because they're not capable of coexistent in a "we know our beliefs are right and therefore anything incompatible with our beliefs is wrong" sort of way. Look at the comments in here on any article about something that's vaguely political or a social issue in a flyover state, rural are or "less developed" country. There's this weird implication of slight superiority. A lot of them often read with a sort of pro colonialism white mans's burden sort of tone. It's like everyone else isn't capable of figuring out their own problems and needs the smart people to rule them. There's also a sort of Christian missionary kind of undertone where everyone who doesn't believe like we do faces eternal damnation so it's our responsibility to get them to shun their existing beliefs and convert. It's not a malevolent intolerance, it's a saving you for your own good kind of intolerance. I can't quite put my finger on it (so I'm drawing parallels instead) but I don't like it.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  I don't think it's a direct intolerance of other opinions because they're not the same Okay, so you don't have to have a bit-accurate copy. but because they're not capable of coexistent in a "we know our beliefs are right and therefore anything incompatible with our beliefs is wrong" sort of way. The above is pretty much a definition of intolerance.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    Yes, intolerance is intolerance. Being able to abstract away the intolerance and treat it as though it's just the result of being confronted by incompatible beliefs makes it easier to rationalize doing it because it makes it partly the result of other people having the "wrong" beliefs and therefore not wholly your fault.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      It's funny how one's own intolerance is always "right" because the other people are always "wrong."
- 9y ago

by yosho 9y ago

gameswithgo 9y ago

Google has also fired two liberal employees for being insufferable (that are known/public). So perhaps it is more a case of Google firing insufferable people rather than particular views.

rapsey 9y ago
No account of events leading to Demores firing portrayed him as insufferable.
- keo92znx 9y ago
  His manifesto alone paints such a picture. No anecdotes from others necessary. One coder with no unique personal success outside being hireable by Google painting the majority of the species as lesser, with cherry picked stats that ignore human history and social trends? Edit: I don’t care about what numbers he put in his memo. It’s the idea of peddling such a thing in the first place by someone who has no authority Saying math says we should behave a certain way is enabling authoritarian rule, IMO Demore forgets that he’s one of billions. He can think what he wants using his numbers, but it’s not iron clad and means nothing given that the data is generated in a highly curated social structure It’s less “his math is off” and more “why do I care who this Demore fellow is? Because he has math? Meh lots of people do. It’s not very interesting math and theory.” That’s not likely to connect with this crowd. Pretty self-aggrandizing and full of shit, IMO. Not something a “place of business” as Google has painted itself in these situations, should support
  - MadSudaca 9y ago
    maybe you should read the memo
  - rapsey 9y ago
    > painting the majority of the species as lesser, He did that? Where?
    - keo92znx 9y ago
      He made comments outside his paper that women just aren’t as good at men or more of them would find satisfaction in this I’m not linking it because it’s not like this is an esoteric notion that requires extreme vetting It’s one a-hole who in the big picture isn’t important to anyone but himself. Something I think this forum and society as a whole have lost sight of I have my own take on it. Add some variables he excluded and his whole thesis goes to shit. But it still says nothing but math is like English; it can be made to produce a result that tells whatever story we want Some folks seem to think every formula peddles some inherent truth of reality, which is nonsense
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        He made comments outside his paper that women just aren’t as good at men or more of them would find satisfaction in this By that reasoning, there seems to be evidence that women are contextually better than men at medicine and healthcare. https://www.fastcompany.com/3044934/why-are-these-3-stem-fields-dominated-by-women https://www.fastcompany.com/3044934/why-are-these-3-stem-fie...
  - wand3r 9y ago
    to be fair your opinion is less scientifically rigorous than the actual scientific papers he cited which was his formulation of data less than opinion. You can disagree with him & those papers but I do think a blanket dismissal of him as a person is difficult to infer from a single inter-office memo
    - 9y ago
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Objectively untrue, given counterexamples I've seen from Google insiders.

threatofrain 9y ago

What ties James Damore to positions or values of conservatism, other than him saying so? What core conservative value or worldview is at play here?

Consultant32452 9y ago
I suspect the worldview difference is individualism vs collectivism.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  I thought it was the view that women and men were different, and that an embrace of that fact would reveal askew sex ratios for different occupations. Also, what group claims individualism as their value? Liberals or conservatives? I suspect many people would say they are pro individual freedom and rights when framed as individualism vs collectivism. Also, do conservatives champion individualism or community?
- api 9y ago
  That isn't the operating dichotomy anymore. Most modern conservatives are collectivists. Nationalism, racial identity movements, and religious traditionalism are all to varying degrees collectivist. Any talk of saving our culture, race, etc. is collectivist.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

I don't think it's a direct intolerance of other opinions because they're not the same but because they're not capable of coexistent in a "we know our beliefs are right and therefore anything incompatible with our beliefs is wrong" sort of way. Look at the comments in here on any article about something that's vaguely political or a social issue in a flyover state, rural are or "less developed" country. There's this weird implication of slight superiority. A lot of them often read with a sort of pro colonialism white mans's burden sort of tone. It's like everyone else isn't capable of figuring out their own problems and needs the smart people to rule them. There's also a sort of Christian missionary kind of undertone where everyone who doesn't believe like we do faces eternal damnation so it's our responsibility to get them to shun their existing beliefs and convert. It's not a malevolent intolerance, it's a saving you for your own good kind of intolerance. I can't quite put my finger on it (so I'm drawing parallels instead) but I don't like it.

stcredzero 9y ago
I don't think it's a direct intolerance of other opinions because they're not the same Okay, so you don't have to have a bit-accurate copy. but because they're not capable of coexistent in a "we know our beliefs are right and therefore anything incompatible with our beliefs is wrong" sort of way. The above is pretty much a definition of intolerance.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  Yes, intolerance is intolerance. Being able to abstract away the intolerance and treat it as though it's just the result of being confronted by incompatible beliefs makes it easier to rationalize doing it because it makes it partly the result of other people having the "wrong" beliefs and therefore not wholly your fault.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    It's funny how one's own intolerance is always "right" because the other people are always "wrong."
9y ago