8 ms·

Complete and Voluntary Starvation of 50 days

68 points by onuralp 9y ago

tristanj 9y ago
Related: Results of a 382 day voluntary fast https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ (1973) This patient's initial weight was 207 kilograms, and over the course of a year he lost 125 kilograms. During this time he only consumed water, yeast, and multivitamins. After ending the fast, he successfully kept the weight off and only regained 7 kilograms over the next 5 years. He received a Guinness World Record for the longest recorded fast. While a successful example of weight loss, the paper does cite five reports of fatalities occurring during total starvation weight loss treatment. It is probably not the safest way to lose weight.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  Research I did years ago said that when fasting the body starts dumping a lot of toxins. Fasting specialists monitor the urine from a patient and can determine if the fast needs to be slowed or stopped to let the patient recover before fasting again. The source was from a book written by Paul Bragg.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    Actually, when fasting, the body holds on to a lot more toxins because it is low on vital resources and the kidneys and liver begin to release hormones to retain minerals and nutrients instead of urinating them out. This is why fasting often results in both kidney and liver damage along with enzyme increases.
    - RobertRoberts 9y ago
      >This is why fasting often results in both kidney and liver damage along with enzyme increases. Any sources?
      - goldenkey 9y ago
        Have fun reading this one about both distilled water AND fasting: https://www.ncahf.org/articles/e-i/fasting.html https://www.ncahf.org/articles/e-i/fasting.html
        RobertRoberts 9y ago
        You posted this same link in another comment. This article does not say distilled water is bad, and only demonstrates that extreme fasting is dangerous, which I agree with.
- fegu 9y ago
  It is amazing that we have so good knowledge over what the body needs that one can live on just water, yeast and multivitamins for a year. But why the yeast?
  - fractallyte 9y ago
    It wouldn't have been live yeast - probably powdered brewer's yeast. Rich in B vitamins, trace minerals, protein, dietary fiber. I'm guessing it's to 'fill in the gaps' in the multivitamin regime, which can't be assumed to be complete.
  - tristanj 9y ago
    The paper does not say, however I did find a source speculating why: The reason doctors administered yeast is simple – it was his only source of protein, and without it, the body starts eating its own muscle tissue. Without any form of protein at all, the man would not be able to "direct" his body to consume his vast amounts of body fat as fuel, and would die within weeks. Just two tablespoons of nutritional yeast[1] provides a person with 60 calories, 5 grams of carbohydrates and 9 grams of protein – including all nine amino acids, which the human body cannot produce on its own. Seems like nutritional yeast is a convenient source for essential amino acids. [0] https://coach.nine.com.au/2016/04/06/17/01/the-mystery-behind-the-207kg-scotsman-who-fasted-for-over-a-year https://coach.nine.com.au/2016/04/06/17/01/the-mystery-behin... [1] http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2
dmichulke 9y ago
The unit of the BMI should be kg/m^2 Will read the rest now but I'm not sure what to think of a paper with such an error in the first line of the abstract.
- yangyun 9y ago
  Joke alert
- geezerjay 9y ago
  I don't see that as an error. Although there's a popular simplified model that expresses an ideal weight as a function of kg/m^2, the weight/height ratio is indeed expressed as kg/m. Furthermore, if that detail was relevant I'm sure that the paper wouldn't have passed through a peer review process.
  - sackintor 9y ago
    If the authors were using kg/m^-1 instead of kg/m^-2 with the given information (96.8 kg; BMI, 30.2 kg m−1; height not provided), the patient would need to be over 3m (nearly 10 ft) tall. This seems unlikely. If it were true, it would probably make for an even more interesting case report. Peer review for less well known pay-to-publish ($1800) journals like this one is by no means a guarantee of quality: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6154/60.full http://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6154/60.full
    - xurukefi 9y ago
      kg/m^-1 -> kg/m (or kg * m^-1) kg/m^-2 -> kg/m^2 (or kg * m^-2) ;)
      - sackintor 9y ago
        touché! hopefully the point stands despite the reciprocal mess-up...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
sgift 9y ago
> Clear ethical barriers preclude structured research into the physiology of such stimuli. I wonder why that is. The key point is "voluntary" starvation, read fasting. Why not make a study with consenting participants to fast for a specific time? Which "clear ethical barrier" is broken here?
- chii 9y ago
  I believe that the ethics board will not allow voluntary harm, if as a scientist you believe that the procedure is harmful (beyond done reasonable threshold, as everything is harmful in large doses...)
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    This is an interesting point, why do you suppose fasting is considered harmful by anyone? I feel there may be some historical propaganda against it at play here.
    - KMag 9y ago
      > ... why do you suppose fasting is considered harmful by anyone? As noted by another poster, extreme fasting is sometimes fatal.[0] I've also heard elsewhere that it can be fatal and a physician should be consulted before fasting more than a couple of days. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/
      - RobertRoberts 9y ago
        I am aware that extreme fasting is dangerous, but so is extreme water drinking.[0] But fasting in general seems to be stigmatised. Dr. Jason Fung [1] has some fascinating videos on Youtube about why fasting isn't bad. I am just curious why there's a mainstream view that it's bad and the exception is that it's good, vs the other way around? [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-d... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk Edit: Dr. Fung points out one common misconception that fasting causes muscle to be eroded.
pmoriarty 9y ago
Also see: https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/
DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
I did this too myself in 2013 with roughly the same numbers (initial body weight ~92kg losing 20kg in 7 weeks most of it body mass). Also I didn't take supplements and cut down to tap water only (no food or soups or anything). Reintroducing my body to food was challenging to say the least. I had prior experience doing such a diet once before (for 21 days a year earlier) knowing 8 weeks could be realistic for me to maintain at the time. I stopped a week early because even I boiled the tap water, the residual chlorine left over wasn't properly broken down by my body (food helps with that normally) and caused strong reactions every time I tried to drink (nausea even vomiting in final week). So not being able to hydrate myself I needed to stop very abruptly. After I reintroduced my body to food I ended up in hospital a week later due to kidney stones (presumably a side effect of the starvation diet and flushing them out) The hunger goes away after the 3rd/4th day and I was even able to go for a small run every other day until week 5. My motivation for it was neither religious nor to loose weight (although I had 10kg too much compared to my ideal shape 5 years before). People thought I was crazy for doing it (and I didn't tell anyone about it while it happened and also refused to discuss it with my doctor). I wanted to see how my body (and mind) reacts to extreme pressure like that. Also I felt experienced enough at the time to do this I would not recommend pushing too far into the extreme especially if it's your first time. Also worth noting that my weight never bounced back and I managed to maintain my ideal even after 5 years later (only gained 5kg mostly bodymass I lost not so much the fat). My mental abilities (creativity, concentration, focus) were incredible especially until week 5. What I learned is as the body prepares for starvation it also releases huge amounts of energy that is stored up. Feels like having super powers. The body makes these reserves available so we can give it a final push for hunting or finding food (when homo sapiens is out in nature trying to survive I guess). It's probably why fasting is such a big thing in every religion.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  >..the residual chlorine left over wasn't properly broken down by my body When I fast, regular water tastes terrible, I can only drink distilled water. And for those that feel like arguing about distilled water, there's a series of arguments in my account on this topic already.
RobertRoberts 9y ago
Last summer I fasted (intermittent) for 30 days. I had intended to do a pure fast (water only), but circumstances lead me to 1 meal a day. I gained strength the longer I was in the fast. My running distance increased, and I lost on average .5 lbs a day. I weighed myself 4 times and day, logged all my meals and activity. I felt great. I gained back about 5 lbs on average, but this fluctuates some. (as is expected) The key thing I learned from this, to maintain my weight loss, is to appreciate being hungry. It makes your next meal taste better, you have signal process to let you know you are burning fat, and it makes your stomach consistently smaller so you fill up easier. All wins...
- dempseye 9y ago
  What was your starting BMI? What was your finishing BMI? Did you experience any of the symptoms the guy in the case report got (stomach cramps, blackouts when standing up, belching, etc.)?
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    I am pretty healthy to start with (this guy seemed to have quite a few issues implied by his weight history). I didn't measure BMI beyond pinching my belly. I had no negative symptoms at all. I suspect partly because it wasn't a long term complete fast, and also, I've fasted my entire life at least once a year, so I know what to expect. I stay well hydrated, and get plenty of sleep. Sorry for the lack of BMI info, but my pants getting loose was my measure for that. :) Edit: With what I know now, if I had negative symptoms, I'd start with multiple shorter fasts until I could handle longer ones. The minimum would be 24 hours.
    - KMag 9y ago
      > I didn't measure BMI beyond pinching my belly. It sounds like you kept track of your starting weight and ending weight. If you know your starting and ending height or can safely assume your starting and ending height are very close to your current height, you can calculate change in BMI. There's no need for a skin caliper measurement, as you seem to be implying.
sackintor 9y ago
Of related interested, and possibly the only paper that has reached the NEJM with a magician as an author, is this paper that describes David Blane's physiology having spent 44 days fasting in a box: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200511243532124 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200511243532124
xurukefi 9y ago
As somebody who is not familiar with medical research, can anyone tell me why the authors mention the BMI here at all? As far as I understand, the BMI is an indispensable metric for statistics on large populations. However, in a case study involving only a single individual, it seems to me that other markers such as body fat percentage for example, would be a better choice making the BMI more or less meaningless.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  The individual used an electrocapactive conductance device to measure his body fat. It was listed as 29.9%. Maybe try reading the content next time..
  - xurukefi 9y ago
    It still doesn't explain to me why the authors still mention the BMI. It seems like a meaningless piece of information given that they have much better markers.
anilgulecha 9y ago
In the jain community, i see a lot of fasting around me. Everything from whitelist-of-foods, to total and complete fasts. Some momore info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_in_Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_in_Jainism Enterprising researchers should collect data from above.
ilitirit 9y ago
I started eating once a day about 2 months ago. Lost about 20kg. After a while you just stop getting as hungry as you usually would. Sometimes when I'm busy I actually forget to eat.
Torai 9y ago
So, at the end they found out it's bad?
rexstjohn 9y ago
I lost over 40lbs doing this, not as extreme. As everyone else reports, I felt more energy and focus, massive rapid weight loss. Fasting is a miracle cure, I tried nearly everything else. More people need to know about how effective it is.

68 points by onuralp 9y ago

Related: Results of a 382 day voluntary fast https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ (1973) This patient's initial weight was 207 kilograms, and over the course of a year he lost 125 kilograms. During this time he only consumed water, yeast, and multivitamins. After ending the fast, he successfully kept the weight off and only regained 7 kilograms over the next 5 years. He received a Guinness World Record for the longest recorded fast. While a successful example of weight loss, the paper does cite five reports of fatalities occurring during total starvation weight loss treatment. It is probably not the safest way to lose weight.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
Research I did years ago said that when fasting the body starts dumping a lot of toxins. Fasting specialists monitor the urine from a patient and can determine if the fast needs to be slowed or stopped to let the patient recover before fasting again. The source was from a book written by Paul Bragg.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  Actually, when fasting, the body holds on to a lot more toxins because it is low on vital resources and the kidneys and liver begin to release hormones to retain minerals and nutrients instead of urinating them out. This is why fasting often results in both kidney and liver damage along with enzyme increases.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    >This is why fasting often results in both kidney and liver damage along with enzyme increases. Any sources?
    - goldenkey 9y ago
      Have fun reading this one about both distilled water AND fasting: https://www.ncahf.org/articles/e-i/fasting.html https://www.ncahf.org/articles/e-i/fasting.html
      - RobertRoberts 9y ago
        You posted this same link in another comment. This article does not say distilled water is bad, and only demonstrates that extreme fasting is dangerous, which I agree with.
fegu 9y ago
It is amazing that we have so good knowledge over what the body needs that one can live on just water, yeast and multivitamins for a year. But why the yeast?
- fractallyte 9y ago
  It wouldn't have been live yeast - probably powdered brewer's yeast. Rich in B vitamins, trace minerals, protein, dietary fiber. I'm guessing it's to 'fill in the gaps' in the multivitamin regime, which can't be assumed to be complete.
- tristanj 9y ago
  The paper does not say, however I did find a source speculating why: The reason doctors administered yeast is simple – it was his only source of protein, and without it, the body starts eating its own muscle tissue. Without any form of protein at all, the man would not be able to "direct" his body to consume his vast amounts of body fat as fuel, and would die within weeks. Just two tablespoons of nutritional yeast[1] provides a person with 60 calories, 5 grams of carbohydrates and 9 grams of protein – including all nine amino acids, which the human body cannot produce on its own. Seems like nutritional yeast is a convenient source for essential amino acids. [0] https://coach.nine.com.au/2016/04/06/17/01/the-mystery-behind-the-207kg-scotsman-who-fasted-for-over-a-year https://coach.nine.com.au/2016/04/06/17/01/the-mystery-behin... [1] http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2 http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2

dmichulke 9y ago

The unit of the BMI should be kg/m^2 Will read the rest now but I'm not sure what to think of a paper with such an error in the first line of the abstract.

yangyun 9y ago
Joke alert
geezerjay 9y ago
I don't see that as an error. Although there's a popular simplified model that expresses an ideal weight as a function of kg/m^2, the weight/height ratio is indeed expressed as kg/m. Furthermore, if that detail was relevant I'm sure that the paper wouldn't have passed through a peer review process.
- sackintor 9y ago
  If the authors were using kg/m^-1 instead of kg/m^-2 with the given information (96.8 kg; BMI, 30.2 kg m−1; height not provided), the patient would need to be over 3m (nearly 10 ft) tall. This seems unlikely. If it were true, it would probably make for an even more interesting case report. Peer review for less well known pay-to-publish ($1800) journals like this one is by no means a guarantee of quality: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6154/60.full http://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6154/60.full
  - xurukefi 9y ago
    kg/m^-1 -> kg/m (or kg * m^-1) kg/m^-2 -> kg/m^2 (or kg * m^-2) ;)
    - sackintor 9y ago
      touché! hopefully the point stands despite the reciprocal mess-up...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

sgift 9y ago

> Clear ethical barriers preclude structured research into the physiology of such stimuli. I wonder why that is. The key point is "voluntary" starvation, read fasting. Why not make a study with consenting participants to fast for a specific time? Which "clear ethical barrier" is broken here?

chii 9y ago
I believe that the ethics board will not allow voluntary harm, if as a scientist you believe that the procedure is harmful (beyond done reasonable threshold, as everything is harmful in large doses...)
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  This is an interesting point, why do you suppose fasting is considered harmful by anyone? I feel there may be some historical propaganda against it at play here.
  - KMag 9y ago
    > ... why do you suppose fasting is considered harmful by anyone? As noted by another poster, extreme fasting is sometimes fatal.[0] I've also heard elsewhere that it can be fatal and a physician should be consulted before fasting more than a couple of days. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/
    - RobertRoberts 9y ago
      I am aware that extreme fasting is dangerous, but so is extreme water drinking.[0] But fasting in general seems to be stigmatised. Dr. Jason Fung [1] has some fascinating videos on Youtube about why fasting isn't bad. I am just curious why there's a mainstream view that it's bad and the exception is that it's good, vs the other way around? [0] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/ http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-d... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk Edit: Dr. Fung points out one common misconception that fasting causes muscle to be eroded.

pmoriarty 9y ago

Also see: https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fasting/

DyslexicAtheist 9y ago

I did this too myself in 2013 with roughly the same numbers (initial body weight ~92kg losing 20kg in 7 weeks most of it body mass). Also I didn't take supplements and cut down to tap water only (no food or soups or anything). Reintroducing my body to food was challenging to say the least. I had prior experience doing such a diet once before (for 21 days a year earlier) knowing 8 weeks could be realistic for me to maintain at the time. I stopped a week early because even I boiled the tap water, the residual chlorine left over wasn't properly broken down by my body (food helps with that normally) and caused strong reactions every time I tried to drink (nausea even vomiting in final week). So not being able to hydrate myself I needed to stop very abruptly. After I reintroduced my body to food I ended up in hospital a week later due to kidney stones (presumably a side effect of the starvation diet and flushing them out) The hunger goes away after the 3rd/4th day and I was even able to go for a small run every other day until week 5. My motivation for it was neither religious nor to loose weight (although I had 10kg too much compared to my ideal shape 5 years before). People thought I was crazy for doing it (and I didn't tell anyone about it while it happened and also refused to discuss it with my doctor). I wanted to see how my body (and mind) reacts to extreme pressure like that. Also I felt experienced enough at the time to do this I would not recommend pushing too far into the extreme especially if it's your first time. Also worth noting that my weight never bounced back and I managed to maintain my ideal even after 5 years later (only gained 5kg mostly bodymass I lost not so much the fat). My mental abilities (creativity, concentration, focus) were incredible especially until week 5. What I learned is as the body prepares for starvation it also releases huge amounts of energy that is stored up. Feels like having super powers. The body makes these reserves available so we can give it a final push for hunting or finding food (when homo sapiens is out in nature trying to survive I guess). It's probably why fasting is such a big thing in every religion.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
>..the residual chlorine left over wasn't properly broken down by my body When I fast, regular water tastes terrible, I can only drink distilled water. And for those that feel like arguing about distilled water, there's a series of arguments in my account on this topic already.

RobertRoberts 9y ago

Last summer I fasted (intermittent) for 30 days. I had intended to do a pure fast (water only), but circumstances lead me to 1 meal a day. I gained strength the longer I was in the fast. My running distance increased, and I lost on average .5 lbs a day. I weighed myself 4 times and day, logged all my meals and activity. I felt great. I gained back about 5 lbs on average, but this fluctuates some. (as is expected) The key thing I learned from this, to maintain my weight loss, is to appreciate being hungry. It makes your next meal taste better, you have signal process to let you know you are burning fat, and it makes your stomach consistently smaller so you fill up easier. All wins...

dempseye 9y ago
What was your starting BMI? What was your finishing BMI? Did you experience any of the symptoms the guy in the case report got (stomach cramps, blackouts when standing up, belching, etc.)?
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  I am pretty healthy to start with (this guy seemed to have quite a few issues implied by his weight history). I didn't measure BMI beyond pinching my belly. I had no negative symptoms at all. I suspect partly because it wasn't a long term complete fast, and also, I've fasted my entire life at least once a year, so I know what to expect. I stay well hydrated, and get plenty of sleep. Sorry for the lack of BMI info, but my pants getting loose was my measure for that. :) Edit: With what I know now, if I had negative symptoms, I'd start with multiple shorter fasts until I could handle longer ones. The minimum would be 24 hours.
  - KMag 9y ago
    > I didn't measure BMI beyond pinching my belly. It sounds like you kept track of your starting weight and ending weight. If you know your starting and ending height or can safely assume your starting and ending height are very close to your current height, you can calculate change in BMI. There's no need for a skin caliper measurement, as you seem to be implying.

sackintor 9y ago

Of related interested, and possibly the only paper that has reached the NEJM with a magician as an author, is this paper that describes David Blane's physiology having spent 44 days fasting in a box: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200511243532124 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200511243532124

xurukefi 9y ago

As somebody who is not familiar with medical research, can anyone tell me why the authors mention the BMI here at all? As far as I understand, the BMI is an indispensable metric for statistics on large populations. However, in a case study involving only a single individual, it seems to me that other markers such as body fat percentage for example, would be a better choice making the BMI more or less meaningless.

goldenkey 9y ago
The individual used an electrocapactive conductance device to measure his body fat. It was listed as 29.9%. Maybe try reading the content next time..
- xurukefi 9y ago
  It still doesn't explain to me why the authors still mention the BMI. It seems like a meaningless piece of information given that they have much better markers.

anilgulecha 9y ago

In the jain community, i see a lot of fasting around me. Everything from whitelist-of-foods, to total and complete fasts. Some momore info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_in_Jainism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting_in_Jainism Enterprising researchers should collect data from above.

ilitirit 9y ago

I started eating once a day about 2 months ago. Lost about 20kg. After a while you just stop getting as hungry as you usually would. Sometimes when I'm busy I actually forget to eat.

Torai 9y ago

So, at the end they found out it's bad?

rexstjohn 9y ago

I lost over 40lbs doing this, not as extreme. As everyone else reports, I felt more energy and focus, massive rapid weight loss. Fasting is a miracle cure, I tried nearly everything else. More people need to know about how effective it is.