6 ms·

The funny thing in this US-centric view is that we have such a cargo since a century where trains play the role of "self-driving cargo". In europe, the decline

by ktpsns 9y ago

The funny thing in this US-centric view is that we have such a cargo since a century where trains play the role of "self-driving cargo". In europe, the decline of cargo on tracks (trains) is also partially owed to subsidiation of automobile traffic and highway expansions. It is a pity, because from the raw numbers trains are much less expensive then tracks.

ThrustVectoring 9y ago
You get advantages from trucks in terms of flexibility and lower inventory due to faster shipment times. It doesn't make sense for things like coal, sure, but there's very real advantages you gain through shipping by truck instead of rail.
stcredzero 9y ago
It is a pity, because from the raw numbers trains are much less expensive then tracks. Often, the flexibility and reduced latency of freight by truck is worth the increased per-mile cost.
- stefan_ 9y ago
  Freight by truck is worth it because of flexibility and reduced latency, flexibility and reduced latency are worth it because of just-in-time production, just-in-time production is worth it because of less inventory, less inventory is worth it because of less money locked up in inventory, less money locked up in inventory is worth it because of better cash flow on the quarterly reports, better cash flow on the quarterly reports is worth it because it makes the stock market like your company more, the stock market liking your company more is worth it because ??? We might just find out the things we thought are worth it, are not really. It works the other way around, too, of course, which is that the increased per-mile cost is still way below what it would have to be with the externalities accounted for.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    We might just find out the things we thought are worth it, are not really. Then give a concrete quantification of that. It's a very complex question. Entire careers have been built on how to price something complex. That's called "economics."
  - squidlogic 9y ago
    Low inventory is also worth it because it uncovers operational inefficiencies. So it not only helps you become more profitable, but also more reliable.
    - mattkrause 9y ago
      Doesn't it also mean that when things go wrong, they go really wrong?
  - stephengillie 9y ago
    > ...less inventory is worth it because of less money locked up in inventory... Less inventory is worth it because space is money, especially on a retail shelf.
jmadsen 9y ago
See how this is an example of how the need to take a swipe at some group ends up making you look foolish? Your point was that trains are "self-driving cargo". If you'd left it at that, this would have been a clever comment. Instead, you look like someone who doesn't realize the US has massive, massive, massive amounts of train-hauled cargo because all he knows is we don't use commuter trains as much as other countries.
slapshot 9y ago
In the U.S., rail freight volume appears to be going up and to the right, measuring both by distance-weight or just by total number of containers moved any distance: https://www.railserve.com/stats_records/freight_railroad_traffic_volumes.html https://www.railserve.com/stats_records/freight_railroad_tra...
masklinn 9y ago
I think that's misplaced, freight is the one area where NA in general and US in particular absolutely blows every other region out the water. Circa 2010 Rail was ~40% of US freight by ton-mile, whereas for the EU it was ~17%, and the US had 10x more tonne-kilometer freight rail than the EU (beyond China and Russia, with India a very distant third) (nb: China carried more tonnes total but shorter distances) Of course a major reason for that is that the US have (literally) tons of commodities, a significant plurality of the tonnage is coal. I expect roughly the same of Russia, China, Australia and India (the other members of the tonnage top 5, Australia notably haults extremely heavy stuff for very short distances as it's about on par with the EU for tkm but waaay ahead in total tonnage). Hell one of the reasons passenger trains is shit in the US is that passenger rail does not get priority over freight and thus you get the country's lone "high-speed train" giving way to slow freight leading to an average speed of 130km/h, slower than some non-high-speed intercity service in Europe.
- SomewhatLikely 9y ago
  I'd be curious to know if freight travels shorter distances on average in Europe though.
- lawguy 9y ago
  > Hell one of the reasons passenger trains is shit in the US is that passenger rail does not get priority over freight They do have priority: > (c) Preference over freight transportation. -- Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing... http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-sect-24308.html http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-s...
  - dahart 9y ago
    Passenger rail is supposed to have priority by law, but in practice they don't always get it. Freight carriers don't always yield, enough so that there are ongoing legal battles. You can check Amtrak's historical On-Time Performance and causes of delay here: https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance/ https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance/ My quick sampling of ~10 trains came up with an average around 65% on-time during the last year. The only one I've ridden, the California Zephyr, is less than 50%. http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/02/message-amtrak-regarding-time-performance/ http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/02/message-amtrak-regarding-time... http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/24-judge-sides-with-freight-carriers-in-amtrak-time-keeping-case http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/24-judge-sides-... http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/08/24/csx-digs-its-heels-insists-its-not-purposely-delaying-amtrak-trains/595061001/ http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/08/24/csx-digs-its-...
bobthepanda 9y ago
The main issue has actually been prioritization. In Europe the rails are fast and well-maintained, which is great for passenger operation but expensive for very heavy freight operations. Passenger operations are also prioritized very heavily at the expense of freight operations on the rail network. In comparison, the US rail network is slow and low quality, which makes freight operations extremely attractive but is absolute garbage for passenger operations. US rail freight competes well in its market niche, where it is faster than oceanic shipping but much cheaper than air freight.
- ambicapter 9y ago
  Why is slow and low quality rail great for freight?
  - nordsieck 9y ago
    Low maintenance costs mean cheap transport. Coal doesn't care if the trip takes an extra day.
- photonios 9y ago
  I moved from western Europe to eastern Europe and public transport by train is absolutely horrible. I still hope that one day I can catch a train that arrives on schedule. We're not talking a couple of minutes delay, we're talking multiple hours. Even when the train finally departs, it'll pick up delay along the way due to poorly maintained tracks and bad scheduling. All of this turns 6 hour trips into 10 hour trips. I am well aware that this is anecdotal. But from my point of view, not all rails are fast and well-maintained in Europe. Based on my personal experience, that statement applies to western Europe.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >> Based on my personal experience, that statement applies to western Europe. "Western Europe" is almost always what Americans are referring to when they say "Europe," for various biased reasons.
- 9y ago

by ktpsns 9y ago

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

You get advantages from trucks in terms of flexibility and lower inventory due to faster shipment times. It doesn't make sense for things like coal, sure, but there's very real advantages you gain through shipping by truck instead of rail.

stcredzero 9y ago

It is a pity, because from the raw numbers trains are much less expensive then tracks. Often, the flexibility and reduced latency of freight by truck is worth the increased per-mile cost.

stefan_ 9y ago
Freight by truck is worth it because of flexibility and reduced latency, flexibility and reduced latency are worth it because of just-in-time production, just-in-time production is worth it because of less inventory, less inventory is worth it because of less money locked up in inventory, less money locked up in inventory is worth it because of better cash flow on the quarterly reports, better cash flow on the quarterly reports is worth it because it makes the stock market like your company more, the stock market liking your company more is worth it because ??? We might just find out the things we thought are worth it, are not really. It works the other way around, too, of course, which is that the increased per-mile cost is still way below what it would have to be with the externalities accounted for.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  We might just find out the things we thought are worth it, are not really. Then give a concrete quantification of that. It's a very complex question. Entire careers have been built on how to price something complex. That's called "economics."
- squidlogic 9y ago
  Low inventory is also worth it because it uncovers operational inefficiencies. So it not only helps you become more profitable, but also more reliable.
  - mattkrause 9y ago
    Doesn't it also mean that when things go wrong, they go really wrong?
- stephengillie 9y ago
  > ...less inventory is worth it because of less money locked up in inventory... Less inventory is worth it because space is money, especially on a retail shelf.

jmadsen 9y ago

See how this is an example of how the need to take a swipe at some group ends up making you look foolish? Your point was that trains are "self-driving cargo". If you'd left it at that, this would have been a clever comment. Instead, you look like someone who doesn't realize the US has massive, massive, massive amounts of train-hauled cargo because all he knows is we don't use commuter trains as much as other countries.

slapshot 9y ago

In the U.S., rail freight volume appears to be going up and to the right, measuring both by distance-weight or just by total number of containers moved any distance: https://www.railserve.com/stats_records/freight_railroad_traffic_volumes.html https://www.railserve.com/stats_records/freight_railroad_tra...

masklinn 9y ago

I think that's misplaced, freight is the one area where NA in general and US in particular absolutely blows every other region out the water. Circa 2010 Rail was ~40% of US freight by ton-mile, whereas for the EU it was ~17%, and the US had 10x more tonne-kilometer freight rail than the EU (beyond China and Russia, with India a very distant third) (nb: China carried more tonnes total but shorter distances) Of course a major reason for that is that the US have (literally) tons of commodities, a significant plurality of the tonnage is coal. I expect roughly the same of Russia, China, Australia and India (the other members of the tonnage top 5, Australia notably haults extremely heavy stuff for very short distances as it's about on par with the EU for tkm but waaay ahead in total tonnage). Hell one of the reasons passenger trains is shit in the US is that passenger rail does not get priority over freight and thus you get the country's lone "high-speed train" giving way to slow freight leading to an average speed of 130km/h, slower than some non-high-speed intercity service in Europe.

SomewhatLikely 9y ago
I'd be curious to know if freight travels shorter distances on average in Europe though.
lawguy 9y ago
> Hell one of the reasons passenger trains is shit in the US is that passenger rail does not get priority over freight They do have priority: > (c) Preference over freight transportation. -- Except in an emergency, intercity and commuter rail passenger transportation provided by or for Amtrak has preference over freight transportation in using a rail line, junction, or crossing... http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-sect-24308.html http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-49-transportation/49-usc-s...
- dahart 9y ago
  Passenger rail is supposed to have priority by law, but in practice they don't always get it. Freight carriers don't always yield, enough so that there are ongoing legal battles. You can check Amtrak's historical On-Time Performance and causes of delay here: https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance/ https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance/ My quick sampling of ~10 trains came up with an average around 65% on-time during the last year. The only one I've ridden, the California Zephyr, is less than 50%. http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/02/message-amtrak-regarding-time-performance/ http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/02/message-amtrak-regarding-time... http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/24-judge-sides-with-freight-carriers-in-amtrak-time-keeping-case http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/03/24-judge-sides-... http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/08/24/csx-digs-its-heels-insists-its-not-purposely-delaying-amtrak-trains/595061001/ http://www.jconline.com/story/money/2017/08/24/csx-digs-its-...

bobthepanda 9y ago

The main issue has actually been prioritization. In Europe the rails are fast and well-maintained, which is great for passenger operation but expensive for very heavy freight operations. Passenger operations are also prioritized very heavily at the expense of freight operations on the rail network. In comparison, the US rail network is slow and low quality, which makes freight operations extremely attractive but is absolute garbage for passenger operations. US rail freight competes well in its market niche, where it is faster than oceanic shipping but much cheaper than air freight.

ambicapter 9y ago
Why is slow and low quality rail great for freight?
- nordsieck 9y ago
  Low maintenance costs mean cheap transport. Coal doesn't care if the trip takes an extra day.
photonios 9y ago
I moved from western Europe to eastern Europe and public transport by train is absolutely horrible. I still hope that one day I can catch a train that arrives on schedule. We're not talking a couple of minutes delay, we're talking multiple hours. Even when the train finally departs, it'll pick up delay along the way due to poorly maintained tracks and bad scheduling. All of this turns 6 hour trips into 10 hour trips. I am well aware that this is anecdotal. But from my point of view, not all rails are fast and well-maintained in Europe. Based on my personal experience, that statement applies to western Europe.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >> Based on my personal experience, that statement applies to western Europe. "Western Europe" is almost always what Americans are referring to when they say "Europe," for various biased reasons.
9y ago