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Please, keep in mind you are seeing the modern version of Christianity in society right now. You can claim modern Christianity is not obsessed with power, but

by 0xFFC 9y ago

Please, keep in mind you are seeing the modern version of Christianity in society right now. You can claim modern Christianity is not obsessed with power, but we know the old version was. Who knows about future version of Christianity! The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. But it will be! As Christianity did.

na85 9y ago
>The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. Isn't that grounds for legitimate criticism, then? Un-modern religions have no place in a modern world. In tech we're so quick to throw even 5-year old concepts out as obsolete, why must Islam be defended in its obsolescence?
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  Did you read the comments? I didn’t defend Islam! I attacked all religions. You can not say Islam is essentially bad while Christianity is not that bad. They are fundamentally same. In my opinion they all are bs. But Christianity is transformed under presure, that pressure was not there for Islam until last 20, 30 years. So islam hasn’t transformed yet. That doesn’t make Christianity better or Islam worse. >>As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Christianity hasn't transformed, the politics of adherents has. The same truths stand. The same fundamentals of faith are still there. Islam can't be modernised and still be Islam because it dictates a political order and holds a pre-medieval warlord as the ideal person. They're fundamentally different in this respect at least.
nileshtrivedi 9y ago
There are some fundamental differences though. Correct me if I am wrong but Quran is considered final the way as it is, any attempt to rewrite is illegitimate. Whereas New Testament is considered as valid as the Old testament in many streams. The punishment for apostasy are also quite different across abrahamic religions. You can't argue for abolishing death penalty for apostates and yet, be considered adhering to Islam's core tenets. These two things, among others, pose unique challenges for reforms in Islam.
- thomasahle 9y ago
  I'm not sure I understand this comment. When was list time the bible was rewritten? Probably when then Canon was formalized 1500 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testame... Of course, this didn't stop people from interpreting the texts differently. Surely this has always been controversial and caused major strifes and wars between different Christian fractions. Isn't that pretty similar to how Islam has hundreds of different interpretations? http://theconversation.com/why-is-islam-so-different-in-different-countries-51804 http://theconversation.com/why-is-islam-so-different-in-diff...
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    The Bible was retranslated in 1611 (for example), and is regularly. It's not rewritten. New finds of historical texts show this to be true. Some versions (ie translations) are presented with a political end, but they're relatively easily weeded out. Translations tend to sit on a range from translating the idea to translating the specific words - that's why every Christian I know uses different versions, concordances, Bible dictionaries etc.. There are overarching themes that are not in dispute in these religious texts.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      > It's not rewritten. Don't the apocrypha make that a bit more complicated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
      - cygx 9y ago
        Depends. The core of the canon is still essentially the same as described by Athanasius[1]. He had the following to say about the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books: there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness Consensus changed, and the books were incorporated into the proper canon. Centuries later, Martin Luther thought the church to be corrupt and its traditions no longer trustworthy; he argued that doctrine should be re-derived from Scripture alone. Given that the canon was itself a product of said tradition, he re-examined it and came to the conclusion that the deuterocanonical books shouldn't be considered capital-S Scripture. Fewer people are aware that he had similar misgivings about parts of the New Testament as well (Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation). [1] http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806039.htm http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806039.htm
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Islam can't be, unless you rewrite the Koran and decide that Mohammed was wrong. If you do that it's no longer Islam.
- lolc 9y ago
  There is no one true Islam. To get a peacful Islam, all you need is a shift in pereception. Start seeing things allegorically and whatnot. Christianity could do it. Islam can do it. In fact it did. Check out Sufism. I do consider the Sufis as part of the larger Umma. But not all islamic sects do. The differences often serve as an excuse for war.
afyalman 9y ago
That's how Christianity has degenerated... "Modern" is the keyword for degeneration, religion has to be definitive, not something you can toy around. You can simply do not believe and move on...

by 0xFFC 9y ago

na85 9y ago

>The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. Isn't that grounds for legitimate criticism, then? Un-modern religions have no place in a modern world. In tech we're so quick to throw even 5-year old concepts out as obsolete, why must Islam be defended in its obsolescence?

0xFFC 9y ago
Did you read the comments? I didn’t defend Islam! I attacked all religions. You can not say Islam is essentially bad while Christianity is not that bad. They are fundamentally same. In my opinion they all are bs. But Christianity is transformed under presure, that pressure was not there for Islam until last 20, 30 years. So islam hasn’t transformed yet. That doesn’t make Christianity better or Islam worse. >>As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Christianity hasn't transformed, the politics of adherents has. The same truths stand. The same fundamentals of faith are still there. Islam can't be modernised and still be Islam because it dictates a political order and holds a pre-medieval warlord as the ideal person. They're fundamentally different in this respect at least.

nileshtrivedi 9y ago

There are some fundamental differences though. Correct me if I am wrong but Quran is considered final the way as it is, any attempt to rewrite is illegitimate. Whereas New Testament is considered as valid as the Old testament in many streams. The punishment for apostasy are also quite different across abrahamic religions. You can't argue for abolishing death penalty for apostates and yet, be considered adhering to Islam's core tenets. These two things, among others, pose unique challenges for reforms in Islam.

thomasahle 9y ago
I'm not sure I understand this comment. When was list time the bible was rewritten? Probably when then Canon was formalized 1500 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testame... Of course, this didn't stop people from interpreting the texts differently. Surely this has always been controversial and caused major strifes and wars between different Christian fractions. Isn't that pretty similar to how Islam has hundreds of different interpretations? http://theconversation.com/why-is-islam-so-different-in-different-countries-51804 http://theconversation.com/why-is-islam-so-different-in-diff...
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  The Bible was retranslated in 1611 (for example), and is regularly. It's not rewritten. New finds of historical texts show this to be true. Some versions (ie translations) are presented with a political end, but they're relatively easily weeded out. Translations tend to sit on a range from translating the idea to translating the specific words - that's why every Christian I know uses different versions, concordances, Bible dictionaries etc.. There are overarching themes that are not in dispute in these religious texts.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > It's not rewritten. Don't the apocrypha make that a bit more complicated? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
    - cygx 9y ago
      Depends. The core of the canon is still essentially the same as described by Athanasius[1]. He had the following to say about the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books: there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness Consensus changed, and the books were incorporated into the proper canon. Centuries later, Martin Luther thought the church to be corrupt and its traditions no longer trustworthy; he argued that doctrine should be re-derived from Scripture alone. Given that the canon was itself a product of said tradition, he re-examined it and came to the conclusion that the deuterocanonical books shouldn't be considered capital-S Scripture. Fewer people are aware that he had similar misgivings about parts of the New Testament as well (Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation). [1] http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806039.htm http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806039.htm

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

Islam can't be, unless you rewrite the Koran and decide that Mohammed was wrong. If you do that it's no longer Islam.

lolc 9y ago
There is no one true Islam. To get a peacful Islam, all you need is a shift in pereception. Start seeing things allegorically and whatnot. Christianity could do it. Islam can do it. In fact it did. Check out Sufism. I do consider the Sufis as part of the larger Umma. But not all islamic sects do. The differences often serve as an excuse for war.

afyalman 9y ago

That's how Christianity has degenerated... "Modern" is the keyword for degeneration, religion has to be definitive, not something you can toy around. You can simply do not believe and move on...