4 ms·

> Isn't this like saying Christianity and democracy can't coexist? Typical western misunderstanding of islam, treating all religions as equally stupid or equal

by myf01d 9y ago

> Isn't this like saying Christianity and democracy can't coexist? Typical western misunderstanding of islam, treating all religions as equally stupid or equally good, islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics since day one. Mohammed was a political figure and a "warrior" who subjugated the disbelievers to his will by all means, the "caliph" means in arabic, successor, the prophet's successor, it's his duty, according the quran to wage war on all the disbelievers until they submit to the true word of god. Christianity itself, on the other hand, is almost has nothing to do with politics according to the new testament.

0xFFC 9y ago
As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics I wish you could time travel to medieval times. ;) Islam, Christianity, juduism, etc all are same fundamentally. But the christianity has lost its power in recent centuries and become (a little) adaptated to the modern societies.
myf01d 9y ago
> I wish you could time travel to medieval times. ;) I didn't say the in medieval times, things weren't shit for Europe. But Christianity itself is not immersed in politics like Islam. This is a fact not an opinion. I wish you could read the quran in arabic.
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  >This is a fact not an opinion. Wrong. Please search about relation between Christianity (or Judaisim for that matter) and power. >I wish you could read the quran in arabic. yeap, they did force us to read that stupid book for 12 year (elementary, middle, high school) in Iran. So I can say I am pretty familiar with it.
  - afyalman 9y ago
    That's the reason for hatred. Persian culture does those kind of things...
- egeozcan 9y ago
  I just wanted to leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_politics
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  Please, keep in mind you are seeing the modern version of Christianity in society right now. You can claim modern Christianity is not obsessed with power, but we know the old version was. Who knows about future version of Christianity! The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. But it will be! As Christianity did.
  - na85 9y ago
    >The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. Isn't that grounds for legitimate criticism, then? Un-modern religions have no place in a modern world. In tech we're so quick to throw even 5-year old concepts out as obsolete, why must Islam be defended in its obsolescence?
    - 0xFFC 9y ago
      Did you read the comments? I didn’t defend Islam! I attacked all religions. You can not say Islam is essentially bad while Christianity is not that bad. They are fundamentally same. In my opinion they all are bs. But Christianity is transformed under presure, that pressure was not there for Islam until last 20, 30 years. So islam hasn’t transformed yet. That doesn’t make Christianity better or Islam worse. >>As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        Christianity hasn't transformed, the politics of adherents has. The same truths stand. The same fundamentals of faith are still there. Islam can't be modernised and still be Islam because it dictates a political order and holds a pre-medieval warlord as the ideal person. They're fundamentally different in this respect at least.
  - nileshtrivedi 9y ago
    There are some fundamental differences though. Correct me if I am wrong but Quran is considered final the way as it is, any attempt to rewrite is illegitimate. Whereas New Testament is considered as valid as the Old testament in many streams. The punishment for apostasy are also quite different across abrahamic religions. You can't argue for abolishing death penalty for apostates and yet, be considered adhering to Islam's core tenets. These two things, among others, pose unique challenges for reforms in Islam.
fsloth 9y ago
"Christianity itself, on the other hand, is almost has nothing to do with politics according to the new testament." Christianity has everything to do with politics. A critical facet of Roman empire were various religious cults. These were effectively replaced by christian service. Constantine's embrace of christianity can be considered as a similar event as Mohammed's ride to Mecca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Chri... Where Islam was crafted as a utility to govern Mecca, early Christianity after Constantine was basically crafted with the politics of governing Rome as one of the constraint. Regardless of the piety of early church fathers, their designs for the organization and creed were to govern the lives of people in a very concrete way. Hence - politics. For a thousand year (or so) the Roman Catholic church was the kingmaker in Europe. The rise of lutheranism was as much political movement as religious. While Luther's theology provided the philosophical context, the political driving force were german princes who were envious of the political power and wealth of the catholic church. http://omaryoussefworldhistoryais.blogspot.fi/2011/10/why-did-lutheranism-appeal-to-princes.html http://omaryoussefworldhistoryais.blogspot.fi/2011/10/why-di... I would also like to point out that early Islam was far more tolerant of other creeds than early state christianity.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  >early Islam was far more tolerant of other creeds Jesus lead armies to murder those who wouldn't join his religion, then realised that he could keep some alive and tax them instead .. so the men then got a choice to convert or pay tax, women and children were still raped and taken as slaves however. Oh wait, that was someone else as reported in other religious texts.
  - fsloth 9y ago
    Mohammed was a historical character, Jesus might or might not have been a figment of cults imagination. I would not compare Jesus and Mohammed. If you want to find Muhammeds counterpart in christianity I would really look into the early church fathers, after emperor Constantine. To quote from wikipedia, early muslim conquests did not mind other religions (they were not exactly equal citizens, though): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Early_Muslim_practice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Earl... Then compare this, for example, with Spain's expulsion of Jews: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain Jews were expelled from catholic spain, and the diaspora went to muslim countries, among other places. Late christian sentiment is a bit different thing altogether, as affluent europeans finally started to actually think about the humanistic message in new testament in wider context, which led to termination of slavery and so on. Early christians were probably drawn to this powerful message. When christianity became a state tool, the effective practices diverged to acommodate the needs of the state and power. I'm not raising these as examples to prove moral superiority either way. I'm raising these to point out that to claim one is bigoted in it's first principles while the other is not, or some such generalization, is empirically false. Both muslim and christian civilizations have shown humanistic tendencies as xenophobic and brutal ones as well. Secular economics and politics have been the driving forces of historical development as much as the theological basis of the regionally dominants power theology, if not more so. Organized religion foremost is a form of political control over people. It's complected with cultural identity in a deep, difficult way, but the identity of a people and the currently accepted dogma are not (necessarily) the same thing.

by myf01d 9y ago

0xFFC 9y ago

As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics I wish you could time travel to medieval times. ;) Islam, Christianity, juduism, etc all are same fundamentally. But the christianity has lost its power in recent centuries and become (a little) adaptated to the modern societies.

myf01d 9y ago

> I wish you could time travel to medieval times. ;) I didn't say the in medieval times, things weren't shit for Europe. But Christianity itself is not immersed in politics like Islam. This is a fact not an opinion. I wish you could read the quran in arabic.

0xFFC 9y ago
>This is a fact not an opinion. Wrong. Please search about relation between Christianity (or Judaisim for that matter) and power. >I wish you could read the quran in arabic. yeap, they did force us to read that stupid book for 12 year (elementary, middle, high school) in Iran. So I can say I am pretty familiar with it.
- afyalman 9y ago
  That's the reason for hatred. Persian culture does those kind of things...
egeozcan 9y ago
I just wanted to leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_politics
0xFFC 9y ago
Please, keep in mind you are seeing the modern version of Christianity in society right now. You can claim modern Christianity is not obsessed with power, but we know the old version was. Who knows about future version of Christianity! The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. But it will be! As Christianity did.
- na85 9y ago
  >The problem with Islam is it has not transformed to modern religion. Isn't that grounds for legitimate criticism, then? Un-modern religions have no place in a modern world. In tech we're so quick to throw even 5-year old concepts out as obsolete, why must Islam be defended in its obsolescence?
  - 0xFFC 9y ago
    Did you read the comments? I didn’t defend Islam! I attacked all religions. You can not say Islam is essentially bad while Christianity is not that bad. They are fundamentally same. In my opinion they all are bs. But Christianity is transformed under presure, that pressure was not there for Islam until last 20, 30 years. So islam hasn’t transformed yet. That doesn’t make Christianity better or Islam worse. >>As middle eastern who was 100% okay with what you said you totally lost me when you said : >islam, unlike christianity, is inherently immersed in politics
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      Christianity hasn't transformed, the politics of adherents has. The same truths stand. The same fundamentals of faith are still there. Islam can't be modernised and still be Islam because it dictates a political order and holds a pre-medieval warlord as the ideal person. They're fundamentally different in this respect at least.
- nileshtrivedi 9y ago
  There are some fundamental differences though. Correct me if I am wrong but Quran is considered final the way as it is, any attempt to rewrite is illegitimate. Whereas New Testament is considered as valid as the Old testament in many streams. The punishment for apostasy are also quite different across abrahamic religions. You can't argue for abolishing death penalty for apostates and yet, be considered adhering to Islam's core tenets. These two things, among others, pose unique challenges for reforms in Islam.

fsloth 9y ago

"Christianity itself, on the other hand, is almost has nothing to do with politics according to the new testament." Christianity has everything to do with politics. A critical facet of Roman empire were various religious cults. These were effectively replaced by christian service. Constantine's embrace of christianity can be considered as a similar event as Mohammed's ride to Mecca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Chri... Where Islam was crafted as a utility to govern Mecca, early Christianity after Constantine was basically crafted with the politics of governing Rome as one of the constraint. Regardless of the piety of early church fathers, their designs for the organization and creed were to govern the lives of people in a very concrete way. Hence - politics. For a thousand year (or so) the Roman Catholic church was the kingmaker in Europe. The rise of lutheranism was as much political movement as religious. While Luther's theology provided the philosophical context, the political driving force were german princes who were envious of the political power and wealth of the catholic church. http://omaryoussefworldhistoryais.blogspot.fi/2011/10/why-did-lutheranism-appeal-to-princes.html http://omaryoussefworldhistoryais.blogspot.fi/2011/10/why-di... I would also like to point out that early Islam was far more tolerant of other creeds than early state christianity.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
>early Islam was far more tolerant of other creeds Jesus lead armies to murder those who wouldn't join his religion, then realised that he could keep some alive and tax them instead .. so the men then got a choice to convert or pay tax, women and children were still raped and taken as slaves however. Oh wait, that was someone else as reported in other religious texts.
- fsloth 9y ago
  Mohammed was a historical character, Jesus might or might not have been a figment of cults imagination. I would not compare Jesus and Mohammed. If you want to find Muhammeds counterpart in christianity I would really look into the early church fathers, after emperor Constantine. To quote from wikipedia, early muslim conquests did not mind other religions (they were not exactly equal citizens, though): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Early_Muslim_practice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Earl... Then compare this, for example, with Spain's expulsion of Jews: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain Jews were expelled from catholic spain, and the diaspora went to muslim countries, among other places. Late christian sentiment is a bit different thing altogether, as affluent europeans finally started to actually think about the humanistic message in new testament in wider context, which led to termination of slavery and so on. Early christians were probably drawn to this powerful message. When christianity became a state tool, the effective practices diverged to acommodate the needs of the state and power. I'm not raising these as examples to prove moral superiority either way. I'm raising these to point out that to claim one is bigoted in it's first principles while the other is not, or some such generalization, is empirically false. Both muslim and christian civilizations have shown humanistic tendencies as xenophobic and brutal ones as well. Secular economics and politics have been the driving forces of historical development as much as the theological basis of the regionally dominants power theology, if not more so. Organized religion foremost is a form of political control over people. It's complected with cultural identity in a deep, difficult way, but the identity of a people and the currently accepted dogma are not (necessarily) the same thing.