6 ms·

SJ Games vs. the Secret Service (1990)

181 points by RKoutnik 9y ago

lkrubner 9y ago
Off-topic: I seem to recall Steve Jackson Games had a magazine during the 1980s? Does anyone recall the name of it? I remember seeing a few copies of it and really liking it. They had some good sci-fi.
- protomyth 9y ago
  Pyramid
  - syntheticnature 9y ago
    Pyramid started in 1993. http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/about.html http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/about.html
- syntheticnature 9y ago
  I'm figuring you're thinking of Space Gamer: http://www.sjgames.com/zines/ http://www.sjgames.com/zines/
pronoiac 9y ago
If you're unaware, this is the origin story for the EFF.
- notaspider 9y ago
  I was unaware. This is completely insane.
- mtgex 9y ago
  Yeah, the article discusses this.
  - pronoiac 9y ago
    It was for people who decide whether to read the article based on the comments.
- walrus01 9y ago
  For those who are unaware, the money made from Lotus 1-2-3 (which was game changing spreadsheet software of the early 1980s) eventually went on to found the EFF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor
  - mtgex 9y ago
    I mean, yeah kind of. But I don't think that's entirely accurate. Wikipedia says "Initial funding was provided by Kapor, Wozniak, and an anonymous benefactor." It's not like he funneled his Lotus gains into the EFF. A foundation is also a money raising endeavor and there were likely many people who contributed a great deal in their early years (and now). Your statement could just as easily be applied to Wozniak, as in "the money made from Apple (a game changing computer company) eventually went on the found the EFF". It's a fun fact, but not all that accurate.
    - walrus01 9y ago
      Kapor and Barlow founded the EFF... I was not aware of Wozniak being involved around the time of operation sundevil in 1990/1991: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/civilizing-cyberspace-19930610 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/civilizing-cyb...
      - mtgex 9y ago
        Yeah I wasn't aware of it either before.
- itronitron 9y ago
  I remember reading that the Secret Service was investigating an Austin game company because they were one of the first companies to buy CD duplicating equipment so were suspected of piracy by the Secret Service. For some reason I remember that as being Origin Systems but it may have actually been Steve Jackson Games.
preinheimer 9y ago
This was when I started getting into role playing. I remember buying their Cyberpunk addendum book and being doubly intrigued by the Secret Service raid.
jMyles 9y ago
Also: GURPS cyberpunk was a great expansion to a great game. I have good memories of being 10 years old and playing that with an older neighbor friend.
walrus01 9y ago
historical book worth reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown
gesman 9y ago
Moral: No matter who screwed up - attorneys always win.
Jtsummers 9y ago
In 2011 (2010?), at the Origins convention in Columbus then VP Biden was conducting a fundraiser at the same time at the same convention center. It was hilarious to see the secret service agents walking around. At first I thought it was some kind of MIB LARP or something. Seeing Secret Service agents trailing behind the (armed with swords and maces and such) entourage of a minotaur was hilarious. Sadly, no one got the joke when I asked if anyone had warned the Steve Jackson Games crew.
- kregasaurusrex 9y ago
  Scheduling at the Columbus Convention Center really seems to be done without any regard for neighboring events. An Ohio Linuxfest a couple years ago was done right alongside a youth cheerleading competition, which had made some parents seem noticeably uncomfortable. And other weekends have mixed conventions like Wizard's World Comic Con and Origins, where I'd guess there's an overlap of people who'd like to go to both but not pay for a split experience. The expansion which has been under construction for a couple years is finally done, and the "As We Are"[0] art installation was added including a decent chunk of event space. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt6dyWT4Cms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt6dyWT4Cms
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    Hahaha, many years ago I went to a MarCon in Columbus that had been scheduled alongside a high school prom. Not necessarily a problem, but there are always people in costume at these things, and there happened to be a dominatrix leading two gimps on leashes through the main concourse at the same time that the kids were parading through...
    - WorldMaker 9y ago
      Many Cons have had to establish boundary rules for that sort of "play" regardless of if they are scheduled alongside a more "normal" event. Also, BDSM culture itself has fought hard to move towards a more consent-based culture and publicly displaying such things without public consent is increasingly considered rude.
dang 9y ago
From 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982643
bradknowles 9y ago
There’s another part to the story which I have told to the folks at SJG, but to which they never responded. In late 1990, I was working in the basement of the Pentagon, supporting the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in the J4 Logistics Readiness Center, inside the National Military Command Center. I was a gamer, but I also had a TS/SCI security clearance. I had heard about the SS raid on SJG, and I was pissed off. So, I decided to spend a lot of money and go out and buy one copy of every GURPS book that I could find at my friendly local gaming store (FLGS). I had a copy of GURPS CyberPunk, and didn’t think very much of it. I was already in a CyberPunk game, and the GURPS version was a pale imitation. But there was another book that drew my attention. It was oriented towards espionage, and among other things it gave a very accurate description of how satellite surveillance worked. It also happened to use an actual classified military code word in the context of explaining what a classified military code word was and how they were used. The latter was a clear violation of the law, and as soon as I saw it, I reported it to my security officer. He confirmed that this was a legitimate leak of a classified military code word, and he said he would report it further up the chain of command. I never heard anything more about it from inside the government, but I have to believe that the SS and the FBI would use a coverup like pointing at a different book, if this was the actual reason that they were doing a raid on SJG. So, there you go — almost 30 years later, yet another clue as to what might have been the real reason for the raid. NB: When a classified military code word is leaked, they have to go through a huge process to reclassify all the documents that were covered under the old code word. This is a massive undertaking, and would cost millions or possibly even billions of dollars. And then there is the cost of the damage to National Security by all the documents which might already be in enemy hands but where they didn’t know what the code word covered or what compartment those documents were in. So, a leak of this type would be ... a really big deal.
- wolco 9y ago
  Billions of dollars to reclassify a code word? That sounds implausable. But your story could be the reason behind the raid.
  - bradknowles 9y ago
    Domino effect. It’s not just reclassifying documents, it’s reclassifying entire projects, and so many more things that can fall out from that trigger. I don’t have first hand knowledge of any such cases, but I can certainly conceive of them.
cityofghosts 9y ago
The Hacker Crackdown of 1990 by Bruce sterling was the first long form e book I read. It foretold the future in many ways. 1st, it was a bright shining line between the old world of govt doing this stuff in shadows, buried in a blurb on of 10 of the newspaper, and it being in the open for millions to read all the details, about plain as day. As long as you knew bbses... it was there. Second, it was distributed for free so I payed the author nothing, which felt weird. Like a piece was misssing. Third it introduced me to brutal fatalism, which is a cousin of realism but also a neighbor of depression. There was no happy ending, people did not learn from their mistakes, bad deeds were not apologized for not punished, and laws did not change. Law enforcement are still, largely, uneducated and technically illiterate, and they are still going after harmless nobodies for no good reason.
katastic 9y ago
>And we won. The judge gave the Secret Service a tongue-lashing and ruled for SJ Games on two out of the three counts, and awarded over $50,000 in damages, plus over $250,000 in attorney's fees. You know, this really sounds like a "win" only in the sense it's the "win" we're "allowed" to have. Everyone's lives were ruined for years. They almost lost their business. They lost a product they had poured countless hours into. They had to pay up front for attorney's fees (even though they were completely in the right), and spent years in court. And all the Secret Service lost was some "sharply worded comments" and a tear-drop amount of taxpayer money that wouldn't even register on their budget and had zero affect on their future budgets. The only brightsides were indirect ones. The EFF was founded, and their case law would likely be used for future cases and possibly future government actions (before they act) since they know they wouldn't be able to get away with it.
mwexler 9y ago
An oft reposted link, but it's a good story to remind ourselves of each time.

181 points by RKoutnik 9y ago

Off-topic: I seem to recall Steve Jackson Games had a magazine during the 1980s? Does anyone recall the name of it? I remember seeing a few copies of it and really liking it. They had some good sci-fi.

protomyth 9y ago
Pyramid
- syntheticnature 9y ago
  Pyramid started in 1993. http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/about.html http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/about.html
syntheticnature 9y ago
I'm figuring you're thinking of Space Gamer: http://www.sjgames.com/zines/ http://www.sjgames.com/zines/

pronoiac 9y ago

If you're unaware, this is the origin story for the EFF.

notaspider 9y ago
I was unaware. This is completely insane.
mtgex 9y ago
Yeah, the article discusses this.
- pronoiac 9y ago
  It was for people who decide whether to read the article based on the comments.
walrus01 9y ago
For those who are unaware, the money made from Lotus 1-2-3 (which was game changing spreadsheet software of the early 1980s) eventually went on to found the EFF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor
- mtgex 9y ago
  I mean, yeah kind of. But I don't think that's entirely accurate. Wikipedia says "Initial funding was provided by Kapor, Wozniak, and an anonymous benefactor." It's not like he funneled his Lotus gains into the EFF. A foundation is also a money raising endeavor and there were likely many people who contributed a great deal in their early years (and now). Your statement could just as easily be applied to Wozniak, as in "the money made from Apple (a game changing computer company) eventually went on the found the EFF". It's a fun fact, but not all that accurate.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    Kapor and Barlow founded the EFF... I was not aware of Wozniak being involved around the time of operation sundevil in 1990/1991: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/civilizing-cyberspace-19930610 https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/civilizing-cyb...
    - mtgex 9y ago
      Yeah I wasn't aware of it either before.
itronitron 9y ago
I remember reading that the Secret Service was investigating an Austin game company because they were one of the first companies to buy CD duplicating equipment so were suspected of piracy by the Secret Service. For some reason I remember that as being Origin Systems but it may have actually been Steve Jackson Games.

preinheimer 9y ago

This was when I started getting into role playing. I remember buying their Cyberpunk addendum book and being doubly intrigued by the Secret Service raid.

jMyles 9y ago

Also: GURPS cyberpunk was a great expansion to a great game. I have good memories of being 10 years old and playing that with an older neighbor friend.

walrus01 9y ago

historical book worth reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown

gesman 9y ago

Moral: No matter who screwed up - attorneys always win.

Jtsummers 9y ago

In 2011 (2010?), at the Origins convention in Columbus then VP Biden was conducting a fundraiser at the same time at the same convention center. It was hilarious to see the secret service agents walking around. At first I thought it was some kind of MIB LARP or something. Seeing Secret Service agents trailing behind the (armed with swords and maces and such) entourage of a minotaur was hilarious. Sadly, no one got the joke when I asked if anyone had warned the Steve Jackson Games crew.

kregasaurusrex 9y ago
Scheduling at the Columbus Convention Center really seems to be done without any regard for neighboring events. An Ohio Linuxfest a couple years ago was done right alongside a youth cheerleading competition, which had made some parents seem noticeably uncomfortable. And other weekends have mixed conventions like Wizard's World Comic Con and Origins, where I'd guess there's an overlap of people who'd like to go to both but not pay for a split experience. The expansion which has been under construction for a couple years is finally done, and the "As We Are"[0] art installation was added including a decent chunk of event space. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt6dyWT4Cms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt6dyWT4Cms
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Hahaha, many years ago I went to a MarCon in Columbus that had been scheduled alongside a high school prom. Not necessarily a problem, but there are always people in costume at these things, and there happened to be a dominatrix leading two gimps on leashes through the main concourse at the same time that the kids were parading through...
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    Many Cons have had to establish boundary rules for that sort of "play" regardless of if they are scheduled alongside a more "normal" event. Also, BDSM culture itself has fought hard to move towards a more consent-based culture and publicly displaying such things without public consent is increasingly considered rude.

dang 9y ago

From 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982643

bradknowles 9y ago

There’s another part to the story which I have told to the folks at SJG, but to which they never responded. In late 1990, I was working in the basement of the Pentagon, supporting the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in the J4 Logistics Readiness Center, inside the National Military Command Center. I was a gamer, but I also had a TS/SCI security clearance. I had heard about the SS raid on SJG, and I was pissed off. So, I decided to spend a lot of money and go out and buy one copy of every GURPS book that I could find at my friendly local gaming store (FLGS). I had a copy of GURPS CyberPunk, and didn’t think very much of it. I was already in a CyberPunk game, and the GURPS version was a pale imitation. But there was another book that drew my attention. It was oriented towards espionage, and among other things it gave a very accurate description of how satellite surveillance worked. It also happened to use an actual classified military code word in the context of explaining what a classified military code word was and how they were used. The latter was a clear violation of the law, and as soon as I saw it, I reported it to my security officer. He confirmed that this was a legitimate leak of a classified military code word, and he said he would report it further up the chain of command. I never heard anything more about it from inside the government, but I have to believe that the SS and the FBI would use a coverup like pointing at a different book, if this was the actual reason that they were doing a raid on SJG. So, there you go — almost 30 years later, yet another clue as to what might have been the real reason for the raid. NB: When a classified military code word is leaked, they have to go through a huge process to reclassify all the documents that were covered under the old code word. This is a massive undertaking, and would cost millions or possibly even billions of dollars. And then there is the cost of the damage to National Security by all the documents which might already be in enemy hands but where they didn’t know what the code word covered or what compartment those documents were in. So, a leak of this type would be ... a really big deal.

wolco 9y ago
Billions of dollars to reclassify a code word? That sounds implausable. But your story could be the reason behind the raid.
- bradknowles 9y ago
  Domino effect. It’s not just reclassifying documents, it’s reclassifying entire projects, and so many more things that can fall out from that trigger. I don’t have first hand knowledge of any such cases, but I can certainly conceive of them.

cityofghosts 9y ago

The Hacker Crackdown of 1990 by Bruce sterling was the first long form e book I read. It foretold the future in many ways. 1st, it was a bright shining line between the old world of govt doing this stuff in shadows, buried in a blurb on of 10 of the newspaper, and it being in the open for millions to read all the details, about plain as day. As long as you knew bbses... it was there. Second, it was distributed for free so I payed the author nothing, which felt weird. Like a piece was misssing. Third it introduced me to brutal fatalism, which is a cousin of realism but also a neighbor of depression. There was no happy ending, people did not learn from their mistakes, bad deeds were not apologized for not punished, and laws did not change. Law enforcement are still, largely, uneducated and technically illiterate, and they are still going after harmless nobodies for no good reason.

katastic 9y ago

>And we won. The judge gave the Secret Service a tongue-lashing and ruled for SJ Games on two out of the three counts, and awarded over $50,000 in damages, plus over $250,000 in attorney's fees. You know, this really sounds like a "win" only in the sense it's the "win" we're "allowed" to have. Everyone's lives were ruined for years. They almost lost their business. They lost a product they had poured countless hours into. They had to pay up front for attorney's fees (even though they were completely in the right), and spent years in court. And all the Secret Service lost was some "sharply worded comments" and a tear-drop amount of taxpayer money that wouldn't even register on their budget and had zero affect on their future budgets. The only brightsides were indirect ones. The EFF was founded, and their case law would likely be used for future cases and possibly future government actions (before they act) since they know they wouldn't be able to get away with it.

mwexler 9y ago

An oft reposted link, but it's a good story to remind ourselves of each time.