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The German public and car industry is fighting tooth and nail against any change in drivetrain technology. The push to outlaw old diesel engines in city centers

The German public and car industry is fighting tooth and nail against any change in drivetrain technology. The push to outlaw old diesel engines in city centers is met with cries about "deindustrialization". We also mostly drive stick here. I think the jury is still out if cleaner car technology will actually win or if we will keep living in poisoned cities. Maybe German car makers will come out ahead by focusing on strong, loud and polluting cars. I sure hope they won't.

adventured 9y ago
It will become uneconomical to stick to IC cars as the entire world shifts to electric over the next ~30 years. Germany's auto makers will disappear in that scenario, because they'll lose all the global markets. Just losing part of those markets will destroy their margins due to the change in economies of scale. Their only good bet is to aggressively adapt. I'm sure they will, even if they drag their feet initially. Toyota has put themselves in a similar running from behind scenario, because their leadership chose to put a lot of effort and money into hydrogen instead of the lithium-ion approach. I'd bet on them similarly eventually throwing immense resources into catching up.
vetinari 9y ago
> We also mostly drive stick here. During last years, there was a huge push to change that and sell as much as possible new cars with automatic transmission. For example, nowadays it is almost impossible to get a car with manual transmission, 4x4, and not an anaemic, preferably petrol engine (forget about atmospheric one). If you accept automatic, you can choose from almost all brands.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  This is true for premium brands only. The "normal" ones are still actively selling combinations of everything you've said including manual transmission. Petrol engine is not preferred by EU people, they prefer diesel; it's true that nowadays there isn't much of a choice if you want petrol, though.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    It is true for "normal" ones too. I was checking recently, and the cut-off seemed to be at 110kW (1.5TSI) for VW Group (Skoda, Seat) and 118kW for Mazda. Above that, only automatic.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      I don't know any 'normal' (as in regular) people who would buy above that. Europeans are used to small cubatures, the average would be around 1.6 to 1.8 (and that's considered big). You can buy 2.0 TDi Skoda with manual (consider they have different offerings across Europe).
      - vetinari 9y ago
        Here, the 2.0 TDI with manual is the 110kW one, just like the 1.5 TSI one, also available with manual. If you want bigger engine, i.e. 2.0 TSI 132 kW or 2.0 TDI 140 kW, it's DSG only.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    That is for tax reasons, the same reason lng conversions where popular in Italy (where evading / reducing tax is a national sport). Btw this is a quote from my Italian driving instructor at the time
lima 9y ago
> The German public and car industry is fighting tooth and nail against any change in drivetrain technology. This is not true. The German car industry is heavily investing in electric cars. Source: friend is engineering manager for a major supplier
- adrianN 9y ago
  Ten years too late?
  - cornholio 9y ago
    Early enough to catch the transition to mainstream of the electric car and mass adoption. That is at least 10 years away.
- konschubert 9y ago
  That's good to hear! I'm glad to be proven wrong.
threeseed 9y ago
None of this is at all true to me. BMW was one of the first to come out with electric cars with the "i series". Audi is releasing 3 new electric drivetrains under the e-tron branding. Mercedes had a massive news release last month where they are building a global battery news to go with an upcoming global rollout of new electric cars: https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicle-production-global-battery-network/ https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicl... This idea that the top auto manufacturers are just sitting around waiting for their industry to be taken over by electric startups is just laughable.
- rsync 9y ago
  "BMW was one of the first to come out with electric cars with the "i series"." That was one car. A single model - the i3. The i8 does not count since it's a hybrid with a little lawnmower engine hidden inside. I am hopeful that things can change but what I see from BMW and (especially) Volvo is the same old press releases about a concept car that will be available three years from now. They just keep writing the same press releases but shifting the dates forward.

adventured 9y ago

It will become uneconomical to stick to IC cars as the entire world shifts to electric over the next ~30 years. Germany's auto makers will disappear in that scenario, because they'll lose all the global markets. Just losing part of those markets will destroy their margins due to the change in economies of scale. Their only good bet is to aggressively adapt. I'm sure they will, even if they drag their feet initially. Toyota has put themselves in a similar running from behind scenario, because their leadership chose to put a lot of effort and money into hydrogen instead of the lithium-ion approach. I'd bet on them similarly eventually throwing immense resources into catching up.

vetinari 9y ago

> We also mostly drive stick here. During last years, there was a huge push to change that and sell as much as possible new cars with automatic transmission. For example, nowadays it is almost impossible to get a car with manual transmission, 4x4, and not an anaemic, preferably petrol engine (forget about atmospheric one). If you accept automatic, you can choose from almost all brands.

TomMarius 9y ago
This is true for premium brands only. The "normal" ones are still actively selling combinations of everything you've said including manual transmission. Petrol engine is not preferred by EU people, they prefer diesel; it's true that nowadays there isn't much of a choice if you want petrol, though.
- vetinari 9y ago
  It is true for "normal" ones too. I was checking recently, and the cut-off seemed to be at 110kW (1.5TSI) for VW Group (Skoda, Seat) and 118kW for Mazda. Above that, only automatic.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    I don't know any 'normal' (as in regular) people who would buy above that. Europeans are used to small cubatures, the average would be around 1.6 to 1.8 (and that's considered big). You can buy 2.0 TDi Skoda with manual (consider they have different offerings across Europe).
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Here, the 2.0 TDI with manual is the 110kW one, just like the 1.5 TSI one, also available with manual. If you want bigger engine, i.e. 2.0 TSI 132 kW or 2.0 TDI 140 kW, it's DSG only.
- walshemj 9y ago
  That is for tax reasons, the same reason lng conversions where popular in Italy (where evading / reducing tax is a national sport). Btw this is a quote from my Italian driving instructor at the time

lima 9y ago

> The German public and car industry is fighting tooth and nail against any change in drivetrain technology. This is not true. The German car industry is heavily investing in electric cars. Source: friend is engineering manager for a major supplier

adrianN 9y ago
Ten years too late?
- cornholio 9y ago
  Early enough to catch the transition to mainstream of the electric car and mass adoption. That is at least 10 years away.
konschubert 9y ago
That's good to hear! I'm glad to be proven wrong.

threeseed 9y ago

None of this is at all true to me. BMW was one of the first to come out with electric cars with the "i series". Audi is releasing 3 new electric drivetrains under the e-tron branding. Mercedes had a massive news release last month where they are building a global battery news to go with an upcoming global rollout of new electric cars: https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicle-production-global-battery-network/ https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicl... This idea that the top auto manufacturers are just sitting around waiting for their industry to be taken over by electric startups is just laughable.

rsync 9y ago
"BMW was one of the first to come out with electric cars with the "i series"." That was one car. A single model - the i3. The i8 does not count since it's a hybrid with a little lawnmower engine hidden inside. I am hopeful that things can change but what I see from BMW and (especially) Volvo is the same old press releases about a concept car that will be available three years from now. They just keep writing the same press releases but shifting the dates forward.