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The problem here isn't so much that Amazon is going to hurt Google. Google will survive. But we only hear about this story because Google is who Amazon is attac

The problem here isn't so much that Amazon is going to hurt Google. Google will survive. But we only hear about this story because Google is who Amazon is attacking (today). The bigger problem is that Amazon has set themselves up as the global arbiter of commerce, acting as a relatively neutral marketplace matching buyers to sellers worldwide, replacing many or most of the smaller commerce hubs and marketplaces that used to exist. But once in that position, they exercise control over which products can be sold with the explicit intention of destroying competitors, replacing what would otherwise be a consumer favorite with their own inferior (according to market preference) alternate. Everyone talks about monopolists and moral hazard and market manipulation, but Amazon seems to be the only modern company with the unique combination of dominance, confidence, and poor executive judgment to actually make it a consistent and overt company policy.

gordon_freeman 9y ago
This is so true! And now as they have bought Whole Foods, they can do the same thing with grocery products by having options such as WF branded ones over the competitors (stocking 365 branded Sugar and dropping Safway Signature branded Sugar) through their Amazon Fresh or Prime NOW service.
- justonepost 9y ago
  People like variety in food. You don’t usually see network effects (ie, recipe only works if you use ingredients from same supplier) Home automation though is a great network effects play which is why amazon is doing this.
  - bduerst 9y ago
    If home automation is their goal, then why doesn't Amazon open an API for making automated purchases? They can sell more through their marketplace this way.
    - mcherm 9y ago
      Because automating homes is not their goal; profiting when others automate their homes is their goal. They appear t believe that they will make significantly more profit by selling home automation tools and the things that attach to them than by carrying some other company's home automation tools in their catalog in addition to their own.
      - justonepost 9y ago
        Having interviewed with Alexa I can assure you home automation is there #1 goal.
    - adrianN 9y ago
      Because they want people to buy Alexa?
    - stickfigure 9y ago
      Why do you assume they aren't working on it? Big companies move slowly. I doubt Amazon could roll something like this out without 5+ years of development - possibly longer depending on how many times the department gets reorg'd.
    - justonepost 9y ago
      Fraud concerns most likely. They have an api they support for hooking up to Alexa.
- nextstepguy 9y ago
  i've already seen that. Try buying some products that are not 365 (the WF private label.) The march has already started and is accelerating. Consumers beware1
- ChrisAntaki 9y ago
  Whole Foods was already abusing their position by setting strict quality standards for foods they carried, and reducing the requirements for their own 365 brand.
godzillabrennus 9y ago
I guess since Amazon can use it's monopoly position to hurt Google it would be fair for Google to punish Amazon by restricting who can find products through their search engine? Maybe a little trade war between the giants would help them realize this is stupid.
- drdrey 9y ago
  if only there was some sort of federal trade agency that could fine companies for abusing their monopoly positions
  - noarchy 9y ago
    If only there was a monopoly. It isn't as if you suddenly can't get these device any longer.
    - mattnewton 9y ago
      Monopoly power can be exerted at a whole lot less than 100% of the market.
    - Buge 9y ago
      Google also doesn't have the only place you can get search results (eg Bing). But that didn't stop Europe from handing out a $2.8 billion fine.
- doorbumper 9y ago
  It's more troublesome for Google to retaliate. Google is already under scrutiny for unfair search results from regulatory agencies all over the globe. Amazon has gone mostly unnoticed, and exerts their power without fear of reprisal.
- gaius 9y ago
  I guess since Amazon can use it's monopoly position to hurt Google it would be fair for Google to punish Amazon by restricting who can find products through their search engine? All that will do is push people to search Amazon first cutting Google out of the loop altogether.
ethana 9y ago
Google is no angel themselves. What they did to Windows Phone is no different than Amazon's behavior. I'd imagine Windows Phone might as well died even if there were Google apps on it. But by actively preventing third-parties from porting their services to WP, Google intentionally tried to kill it. Now they now practically own the global market of smartphones. Not saying any of this is right, but I've less empathy for them.
- nahhhhhhh 9y ago
  Nahh. I had a WP for 2 years, it was absolutely dreadful software that I kept hoping would improve but never did. Google did not need to do anything to kill it.
- pkaye 9y ago
  I'm sure Microsoft could have worked out a deal with Google. For example there were some patents for filesystems that Microsoft was enforcing for a while on Android phones.
- tyler_larson 9y ago
  http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- jd20 9y ago
  Not to mention when Google blocked YouTube from Echo Show devices. This almost seems like retaliation.
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    Or when Google blocked YouTube from Fire TV devices, after which Amazon stopped selling Chromecasts. Or maybe it was the other way around. This is - in other words - not the first time Amazon and Google got in a spat like this, and probably ain't the last.
    - notatoad 9y ago
      that was the other way around. and amazon's rationale for not selling chromecasts was because the chromecast didn't support amazon prime video. which was, of course, a decision that amazon had made.
Spooky23 9y ago
We live in an era where people will assert that Standard Oil wasn't a monopoly. If a corporate action doesnt directly raise consumer prices, under modern legal thinking it isn't a monopoly. The most ironic or telling thing about Amazon is that Walmart has now become the punchy underdog in comparison.
- qmarchi 9y ago
  And they sell Nest electronics! But on a more realistic note, Walmart has been pushing to be more innovative in the e-commerce ecosystem, purchasing various companies and opening new storefronts (like Allswell) to be more competitive. There's also the advantage that they have in physical location. Anyways, Disclaimer, I work for Walmart but my views and comments are my own.
  - TimJYoung 9y ago
    Yes, but the problem is that Walmart (and others, like Best Buy) proceeded to become also-rans by also opening up their ecommerce platforms to 3rd party sellers. This rush to make everything like Amazon is destructive to the retail chain's brand itself by making it harder for consumers to find the authentic products that they are looking for, with the implicit/explicit guarantees about product quality, low-cost shipping, and return processing. When I go to walmart.com or bestbuy.com, I want to purchase something from Walmart and Best Buy, not some 3rd party with whom I have no prior relationship. It's a total race to the bottom in the retail space right now.
adventured 9y ago
> The bigger problem is that Amazon has set themselves up as the global arbiter of commerce Amazon may yet become that. They are not that yet. Walmart has an infamous reputation for being brutal with suppliers. That reputation is far beyond anything Amazon has yet become known for. Walmart also completely dictates who has access to their vast retail system, which is still roughly three times the size of Amazon. Simply put, Walmart's system is radically more restrictive in terms of providing selling access, than Amazon - and it's three times larger. Half of Amazon's retail sales aren't even from Amazon, they're from independent sellers, and that percentage has been perpetually increasing. For Walmart, it's almost entirely them controlling the sales. It has merely become popular lately to point the fear cannons at Amazon. It's a cultural mania. Last week it was Walmart everyone was terrified of. In the late 1990s, every headline was breathlessly touting how Walmart was going to take over all of retail and put everyone else out of business.
- philipodonnell 9y ago
  Straw man alert! Walmart introducing own-brand competition into it's marketplace and competing in price there. Amazon is introducing own-brand products into thier marketplace and forbidding specific competitors while leaving counterfitters of those same competitors. There's an enormous difference there.
davrosthedalek 9y ago
Honest question: Is Amazon really that unique as a marketplace? How does the world wide volume of ebay compare to Amazon? Do they have any traction in the Chinese market? I could easily see that one of the Chinese market places could make a push for the world market and be a serious contender.
- sercand 9y ago
  I also don't think Amazon that unique as a global marketplace. For me, I use AliExpress more than Amazon and both of them don't operate in my country.
- stordoff 9y ago
  Is eBay the right comparison? I treat them as different services - Amazon: primarily new products, fixed price, and essentially dealing with one seller (if there's an issue with a Marketplace item, Amazon CS will address it); eBay: mix of new/used products, mix of fixed prices and auctions, primarily dealing with individual sellers.
  - davrosthedalek 9y ago
    I think ebay changed a lot. Every time I search something there it's like 90% new stuff from china. On the other hand, amazon has used stuff too. I would really like to see a break down what fraction of the products on ebay are new vs. old, and how much is sold for a fixed price vs. auction.
- Izkata 9y ago
  > I could easily see that one of the Chinese market places could make a push for the world market and be a serious contender. Isn't Alibaba trying to do that? (I don't know much about it, but do hear its name every once in a while)
stordoff 9y ago
I wonder if it hurts Amazon in the long term. One of the reasons for defaulting to Amazon is that they carry pretty much everything. The more items it doesn't stock, the more I will shop around and start doing that more generally.
philipodonnell 9y ago
If you saw the article yesterday about counterfit Nests still for sale and Amazon taking no action, I think it's actually worse than that. Banning competition you don't like is monoploistic for sure, but intentionally leaving counterfitters versions up and promoting them to searchers for those products so it damages your competitors brand is just straight up evil.
- briga 9y ago
  Is it intentional though? Like the old proverb goes--never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- philipodonnell 9y ago
  Sorry, I got this mixed up with the counterfeit chromecast devices that Amazon is ignoring. Its hard to keep track of all the anti-competitive stuff Amazon is doing lately. ;-)
ender89 9y ago
If amazon wants to get into the hardware game, they need to treat competitive hardware fairly or be hit with an anti-competitive lawsuit. There's no two ways about it.

gordon_freeman 9y ago

This is so true! And now as they have bought Whole Foods, they can do the same thing with grocery products by having options such as WF branded ones over the competitors (stocking 365 branded Sugar and dropping Safway Signature branded Sugar) through their Amazon Fresh or Prime NOW service.

justonepost 9y ago
People like variety in food. You don’t usually see network effects (ie, recipe only works if you use ingredients from same supplier) Home automation though is a great network effects play which is why amazon is doing this.
- bduerst 9y ago
  If home automation is their goal, then why doesn't Amazon open an API for making automated purchases? They can sell more through their marketplace this way.
  - mcherm 9y ago
    Because automating homes is not their goal; profiting when others automate their homes is their goal. They appear t believe that they will make significantly more profit by selling home automation tools and the things that attach to them than by carrying some other company's home automation tools in their catalog in addition to their own.
    - justonepost 9y ago
      Having interviewed with Alexa I can assure you home automation is there #1 goal.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Because they want people to buy Alexa?
  - stickfigure 9y ago
    Why do you assume they aren't working on it? Big companies move slowly. I doubt Amazon could roll something like this out without 5+ years of development - possibly longer depending on how many times the department gets reorg'd.
  - justonepost 9y ago
    Fraud concerns most likely. They have an api they support for hooking up to Alexa.
nextstepguy 9y ago
i've already seen that. Try buying some products that are not 365 (the WF private label.) The march has already started and is accelerating. Consumers beware1
ChrisAntaki 9y ago
Whole Foods was already abusing their position by setting strict quality standards for foods they carried, and reducing the requirements for their own 365 brand.

godzillabrennus 9y ago

I guess since Amazon can use it's monopoly position to hurt Google it would be fair for Google to punish Amazon by restricting who can find products through their search engine? Maybe a little trade war between the giants would help them realize this is stupid.

drdrey 9y ago
if only there was some sort of federal trade agency that could fine companies for abusing their monopoly positions
- noarchy 9y ago
  If only there was a monopoly. It isn't as if you suddenly can't get these device any longer.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    Monopoly power can be exerted at a whole lot less than 100% of the market.
  - Buge 9y ago
    Google also doesn't have the only place you can get search results (eg Bing). But that didn't stop Europe from handing out a $2.8 billion fine.
doorbumper 9y ago
It's more troublesome for Google to retaliate. Google is already under scrutiny for unfair search results from regulatory agencies all over the globe. Amazon has gone mostly unnoticed, and exerts their power without fear of reprisal.
gaius 9y ago
I guess since Amazon can use it's monopoly position to hurt Google it would be fair for Google to punish Amazon by restricting who can find products through their search engine? All that will do is push people to search Amazon first cutting Google out of the loop altogether.

ethana 9y ago

Google is no angel themselves. What they did to Windows Phone is no different than Amazon's behavior. I'd imagine Windows Phone might as well died even if there were Google apps on it. But by actively preventing third-parties from porting their services to WP, Google intentionally tried to kill it. Now they now practically own the global market of smartphones. Not saying any of this is right, but I've less empathy for them.

nahhhhhhh 9y ago
Nahh. I had a WP for 2 years, it was absolutely dreadful software that I kept hoping would improve but never did. Google did not need to do anything to kill it.
pkaye 9y ago
I'm sure Microsoft could have worked out a deal with Google. For example there were some patents for filesystems that Microsoft was enforcing for a while on Android phones.
tyler_larson 9y ago
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
jd20 9y ago
Not to mention when Google blocked YouTube from Echo Show devices. This almost seems like retaliation.
- yellowapple 9y ago
  Or when Google blocked YouTube from Fire TV devices, after which Amazon stopped selling Chromecasts. Or maybe it was the other way around. This is - in other words - not the first time Amazon and Google got in a spat like this, and probably ain't the last.
  - notatoad 9y ago
    that was the other way around. and amazon's rationale for not selling chromecasts was because the chromecast didn't support amazon prime video. which was, of course, a decision that amazon had made.

Spooky23 9y ago

We live in an era where people will assert that Standard Oil wasn't a monopoly. If a corporate action doesnt directly raise consumer prices, under modern legal thinking it isn't a monopoly. The most ironic or telling thing about Amazon is that Walmart has now become the punchy underdog in comparison.

qmarchi 9y ago
And they sell Nest electronics! But on a more realistic note, Walmart has been pushing to be more innovative in the e-commerce ecosystem, purchasing various companies and opening new storefronts (like Allswell) to be more competitive. There's also the advantage that they have in physical location. Anyways, Disclaimer, I work for Walmart but my views and comments are my own.
- TimJYoung 9y ago
  Yes, but the problem is that Walmart (and others, like Best Buy) proceeded to become also-rans by also opening up their ecommerce platforms to 3rd party sellers. This rush to make everything like Amazon is destructive to the retail chain's brand itself by making it harder for consumers to find the authentic products that they are looking for, with the implicit/explicit guarantees about product quality, low-cost shipping, and return processing. When I go to walmart.com or bestbuy.com, I want to purchase something from Walmart and Best Buy, not some 3rd party with whom I have no prior relationship. It's a total race to the bottom in the retail space right now.

adventured 9y ago

> The bigger problem is that Amazon has set themselves up as the global arbiter of commerce Amazon may yet become that. They are not that yet. Walmart has an infamous reputation for being brutal with suppliers. That reputation is far beyond anything Amazon has yet become known for. Walmart also completely dictates who has access to their vast retail system, which is still roughly three times the size of Amazon. Simply put, Walmart's system is radically more restrictive in terms of providing selling access, than Amazon - and it's three times larger. Half of Amazon's retail sales aren't even from Amazon, they're from independent sellers, and that percentage has been perpetually increasing. For Walmart, it's almost entirely them controlling the sales. It has merely become popular lately to point the fear cannons at Amazon. It's a cultural mania. Last week it was Walmart everyone was terrified of. In the late 1990s, every headline was breathlessly touting how Walmart was going to take over all of retail and put everyone else out of business.

philipodonnell 9y ago
Straw man alert! Walmart introducing own-brand competition into it's marketplace and competing in price there. Amazon is introducing own-brand products into thier marketplace and forbidding specific competitors while leaving counterfitters of those same competitors. There's an enormous difference there.

davrosthedalek 9y ago

Honest question: Is Amazon really that unique as a marketplace? How does the world wide volume of ebay compare to Amazon? Do they have any traction in the Chinese market? I could easily see that one of the Chinese market places could make a push for the world market and be a serious contender.

sercand 9y ago
I also don't think Amazon that unique as a global marketplace. For me, I use AliExpress more than Amazon and both of them don't operate in my country.
stordoff 9y ago
Is eBay the right comparison? I treat them as different services - Amazon: primarily new products, fixed price, and essentially dealing with one seller (if there's an issue with a Marketplace item, Amazon CS will address it); eBay: mix of new/used products, mix of fixed prices and auctions, primarily dealing with individual sellers.
- davrosthedalek 9y ago
  I think ebay changed a lot. Every time I search something there it's like 90% new stuff from china. On the other hand, amazon has used stuff too. I would really like to see a break down what fraction of the products on ebay are new vs. old, and how much is sold for a fixed price vs. auction.
Izkata 9y ago
> I could easily see that one of the Chinese market places could make a push for the world market and be a serious contender. Isn't Alibaba trying to do that? (I don't know much about it, but do hear its name every once in a while)

stordoff 9y ago

I wonder if it hurts Amazon in the long term. One of the reasons for defaulting to Amazon is that they carry pretty much everything. The more items it doesn't stock, the more I will shop around and start doing that more generally.

philipodonnell 9y ago

If you saw the article yesterday about counterfit Nests still for sale and Amazon taking no action, I think it's actually worse than that. Banning competition you don't like is monoploistic for sure, but intentionally leaving counterfitters versions up and promoting them to searchers for those products so it damages your competitors brand is just straight up evil.

briga 9y ago
Is it intentional though? Like the old proverb goes--never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
philipodonnell 9y ago
Sorry, I got this mixed up with the counterfeit chromecast devices that Amazon is ignoring. Its hard to keep track of all the anti-competitive stuff Amazon is doing lately. ;-)

ender89 9y ago

If amazon wants to get into the hardware game, they need to treat competitive hardware fairly or be hit with an anti-competitive lawsuit. There's no two ways about it.