9 ms·

This was mentioned in another comment but nothing about "education" is about actual education. It's primarily about credentialisim and not being locked out of a

This was mentioned in another comment but nothing about "education" is about actual education. It's primarily about credentialisim and not being locked out of a career with a high ceiling. Though I disagree with many of his political opinions Peter Thiel I think is right on the mark when it comes to education. Additionally credentials serve to lock people out of careers where they can thrive except for the rubber stamp of a piece of paper. In the words of Syndrome "if everyone is super, no one is". If every one has a BS/BA , masters, PHD then in a real sense no one really does. (Added after reading critical comments: "Nothing" is to strong of a word. With that said I still think most of education is about signaling/credentialism etc.)

skybrian 9y ago
This is overstated. Would you say that if everyone knows how to read, nobody does? There is a large amount of signalling in college. It's wildly inefficient. But it's not all signalling.
- kermittd 9y ago
  I sure wouldn't but that's a good point. What I would say is the the ability to read is not much of a economic differenator unlike in many pre- modern cultures where the mere ability to read/write would put you at the top of the social hierarchy. (as a priest,scribe, etc) By the way I love to read!
  - gmfawcett 9y ago
    Are you really suggesting that illiteracy is not a barrier to success in the modern workforce? Anecdotally, how many of your successful colleagues are unable to read?
RasputinsBro 9y ago
> In the words of Syndrome "if everyone is super, no one is". If every one has a BS/BA , masters, PHD then in a real sense no one really does. This is a very small minded view of the world. If I have a PhD, and everyone else does too, it's like I don't have one? No! I learned many things during my PhD, and that knowledge doesn't disappear because others have more knowledge too. It seems the only thing you consider is jobs, but even there you're wrong. The job market is not zero sum. > Yet governments may actually be overestimating the economic benefits of higher education. While universities are places of learning, they are also social sorting mechanisms. Yes, so? The universities being a social sorting mechanism does not stop them from also being places of learning. This is American anti-intellectualism 101.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > The job market is not zero sum. To expand on that, the more educated your neighbor is, the more productive and capable they are, and the better off you are. Do you want poor, unskilled, uneducated customers, vendors, employees, neighbors, and fellow citizens? Or skilled, prosperous, educated ones? Do we want to return to the Middle Ages?
  - Symmetry 9y ago
    The question is to what extent the things people learn in school actually make more skilled in ways that allow them to create prosperity. Obviously many things learned in school are quickly forgotten and never used. But also obviously many of us make a living with the things we learned.
  - DanAndersen 9y ago
    Education is not a one-dimensional scale of more/less educated. I'd want customers, vendors, employees, neighbors, and citizens who are sufficiently educated in whatever specifics are useful for their lives to be meaningful and happy. If we as a society can stop thinking that getting a B.S. is the only sign of smarts and high status, and recognize that things like trade schools or specialized job training are better for vast portions of the populations than imprisoning oneself in debt, then I think we'd be better off. >Do we want to return to the Middle Ages? I'll take the universal literacy of modernity, but there's actually a lot to learn from apprentice-based systems in previous centuries.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      I don't think anyone expects a BS to be high status. It's one path. I know plenty of successful people in the trades. One thing with the trades though is that it can be hard on your body so you have to move to management/ownership as you age. But yes, education is too expensive. I think of student loans as a direct tax on education paid to universities to offset their direct loss in state funds. What I feel is immoral is that the interest is captured by private corporations when the loans are guaranteed by the Feds.
forapurpose 9y ago
> nothing about "education" is about actual education Nothing? Education, like every human process and institution (and technical creation) is very imperfect, but I certainly learned a lot and found it invaluable. One thing I learned was that hyperbole is drama but not reason; nobody knows what you actually mean in any substantial way, it doesn't inform or encourage critical thought; but it is exciting!
- kermittd 9y ago
  Well said! I agree with you about hyperbole although it can be both drama and reason. In fact I edited my comment a bit after reading yours. Two examples one is Churchill'/ warning in the 1930s that Hitler is evil, cannot be trusted etc. He was considered a fool who had destroyed his career until he was proven right. Another modern example is Elon Musk's warning about AI. It may seem crazy and hyperbolic now but if he turns out to be right then it's dramatic and reasonable.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    Agreed, and your politeness is undeserved in response to my bit of snark, so thank you. I still strongly disagree that most of education is signaling/credentials, but we can follow your example and disagree respectfully.
com2kid 9y ago
> This was mentioned in another comment but nothing about "education" is about actual education. It's primarily about credentialisim and not being locked out of a career with a high ceiling. Really? Learning how the history of your country has no value? Learning how to write properly, how to construct persuasive arguments is of no use? Learning how to break an argument down into smaller parts and analyze it for soundness has no practical application? Because those are just a small list of the many skills I learned in college. Not to mention higher level math, an understanding of biology, physics, and chemistry, and a deeper appreciation for arts and music. In a world flooded with propaganda and "sponsored messages", knowing how to keep a clear head and peel away the layers of misdirection is an incredibly important ability, one that a good education will teach. In a world where scientific debate in matters of public policy is of utmost importance, being able to understand the science being debated is a necessary skill for the voting populace. College is incredibly useful, I fail to understand why detractors insist that it has no value. I will readily agree that corruption is rife and the cost is increasing way to rapidly, while quality may very well be on the decline as universities attempt to push more and more students through, but an educated populace is by no means a bad thing.
- u801e 9y ago
  > Really? Learning how the history of your country has no value? Learning how to write properly, how to construct persuasive arguments is of no use? Learning how to break an argument down into smaller parts and analyze it for soundness has no practical application? Shouldn't these things be covered in high school? Perhaps having a 13th or 14th year of primary education would allow for these concepts to be covered in sufficient depth. Then universities could concentrate on specialized concepts pertaining to the student's major.
  - com2kid 9y ago
    > Shouldn't these things be covered in high school? A number of factors. High Schools are very subject to political whims of the local area. Teachers are often not tenured (especially in smaller districts), and school board members are frequently elected officials. There are schools that still teach that America is literally blessed by God to rule over the earth. Those schools aren't going to teach about the Kent State Riots, or Pinkertons. They sure as heck aren't going to have a class on dissecting political speeches (from all across the spectrum) for logical soundness. (One of the best college classes I ever took!) These are the same schools that avoid teaching literally anything about sex (other than don't have it), and skimp out on other large portions of biology. > Perhaps having a 13th or 14th year of primary education would allow for these concepts to be covered in sufficient depth. The problem with mandatory education is that since everyone has to go through it, there is an expectation that everyone passes, which means courses get watered down until everyone does pass. Tests are put in place to prevent this, and then school becomes prep work for those tests, as metrics take over the entire system. Community Colleges are, IMHO, a good stepping stone.
skookumchuck 9y ago
> nothing about "education" is about actual education Right, because everyone knows you can design a working rocket engine using high school knowledge, and that the guy who mows your lawn is a good source of advice on your medical problems.
kurtisc 9y ago
This shouldn't be a surprise to governments, it won a Nobel prize in 2001.
- ouid 9y ago
  Could you explain how you think this applies? In his paper, Akerlof describes college as a mitigating factor of the information asymmetry of the labor market. Higher productivity workers gain education at less personal cost than lower productivity workers, and it thus gains value as a signal. If education doesn't, ultimately, correlate with productivity, then the argument is that the market will simply ignore it.
robotresearcher 9y ago
> nothing about "education" is about actual education. I am completely baffled by this comment. University education changed my life and mind completely. Not from social access or gatekeeping - I just spent years learning amazing things. Knowing some things has been powerfully useful for me. Also, I just like it. It was totally the best. If you like learning, higher education is like getting your retirement in at the beginning of your career. I understand it's not for everyone. But it was incredible for me and people like me. I grew up on welfare by the way, so it's not a wealth club thing. I totally support investing in another route for training for people who wouldn't get that much from years of books, lectures and essays. Apprenticeships and technical vocational school worked for thousands of years alongside academic degrees.
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  I couldn't disagree more. I'm in my final quarter of my undergraduate degree, and I consistently stayed so far ahead of the curriculum in personal projects and internships that I learned almost nothing at all in University. For me, it was purely about proving I knew things to professors using an arcane and ever changing set of metrics. I stuck with it because I want to work for a particular organization, and working in that organization in the position I want absolutely requires a degree. If there was any other path to getting a degree besides sitting through years of classes, I'm confident that I would be every bit as good a person and developer if I had taken that route over going to a University.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    We'll that sucks. I'm sorry it wasn't good for you. > I consistently stayed so far ahead of the curriculum in personal projects and internships Wait a second! So you learned a lot while at college? You wouldn't have had those internships if you had a regular job. And maybe not the time to do personal projects. The college system set up that experience and time for you. College is about the opportunity to learn, not them doing anything to you. Maybe there's something to it after all.
    - 9y ago

skybrian 9y ago

This is overstated. Would you say that if everyone knows how to read, nobody does? There is a large amount of signalling in college. It's wildly inefficient. But it's not all signalling.

kermittd 9y ago
I sure wouldn't but that's a good point. What I would say is the the ability to read is not much of a economic differenator unlike in many pre- modern cultures where the mere ability to read/write would put you at the top of the social hierarchy. (as a priest,scribe, etc) By the way I love to read!
- gmfawcett 9y ago
  Are you really suggesting that illiteracy is not a barrier to success in the modern workforce? Anecdotally, how many of your successful colleagues are unable to read?

RasputinsBro 9y ago

> In the words of Syndrome "if everyone is super, no one is". If every one has a BS/BA , masters, PHD then in a real sense no one really does. This is a very small minded view of the world. If I have a PhD, and everyone else does too, it's like I don't have one? No! I learned many things during my PhD, and that knowledge doesn't disappear because others have more knowledge too. It seems the only thing you consider is jobs, but even there you're wrong. The job market is not zero sum. > Yet governments may actually be overestimating the economic benefits of higher education. While universities are places of learning, they are also social sorting mechanisms. Yes, so? The universities being a social sorting mechanism does not stop them from also being places of learning. This is American anti-intellectualism 101.

forapurpose 9y ago
> The job market is not zero sum. To expand on that, the more educated your neighbor is, the more productive and capable they are, and the better off you are. Do you want poor, unskilled, uneducated customers, vendors, employees, neighbors, and fellow citizens? Or skilled, prosperous, educated ones? Do we want to return to the Middle Ages?
- Symmetry 9y ago
  The question is to what extent the things people learn in school actually make more skilled in ways that allow them to create prosperity. Obviously many things learned in school are quickly forgotten and never used. But also obviously many of us make a living with the things we learned.
- DanAndersen 9y ago
  Education is not a one-dimensional scale of more/less educated. I'd want customers, vendors, employees, neighbors, and citizens who are sufficiently educated in whatever specifics are useful for their lives to be meaningful and happy. If we as a society can stop thinking that getting a B.S. is the only sign of smarts and high status, and recognize that things like trade schools or specialized job training are better for vast portions of the populations than imprisoning oneself in debt, then I think we'd be better off. >Do we want to return to the Middle Ages? I'll take the universal literacy of modernity, but there's actually a lot to learn from apprentice-based systems in previous centuries.
  - sjg007 9y ago
    I don't think anyone expects a BS to be high status. It's one path. I know plenty of successful people in the trades. One thing with the trades though is that it can be hard on your body so you have to move to management/ownership as you age. But yes, education is too expensive. I think of student loans as a direct tax on education paid to universities to offset their direct loss in state funds. What I feel is immoral is that the interest is captured by private corporations when the loans are guaranteed by the Feds.

forapurpose 9y ago

> nothing about "education" is about actual education Nothing? Education, like every human process and institution (and technical creation) is very imperfect, but I certainly learned a lot and found it invaluable. One thing I learned was that hyperbole is drama but not reason; nobody knows what you actually mean in any substantial way, it doesn't inform or encourage critical thought; but it is exciting!

kermittd 9y ago
Well said! I agree with you about hyperbole although it can be both drama and reason. In fact I edited my comment a bit after reading yours. Two examples one is Churchill'/ warning in the 1930s that Hitler is evil, cannot be trusted etc. He was considered a fool who had destroyed his career until he was proven right. Another modern example is Elon Musk's warning about AI. It may seem crazy and hyperbolic now but if he turns out to be right then it's dramatic and reasonable.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  Agreed, and your politeness is undeserved in response to my bit of snark, so thank you. I still strongly disagree that most of education is signaling/credentials, but we can follow your example and disagree respectfully.

com2kid 9y ago

> This was mentioned in another comment but nothing about "education" is about actual education. It's primarily about credentialisim and not being locked out of a career with a high ceiling. Really? Learning how the history of your country has no value? Learning how to write properly, how to construct persuasive arguments is of no use? Learning how to break an argument down into smaller parts and analyze it for soundness has no practical application? Because those are just a small list of the many skills I learned in college. Not to mention higher level math, an understanding of biology, physics, and chemistry, and a deeper appreciation for arts and music. In a world flooded with propaganda and "sponsored messages", knowing how to keep a clear head and peel away the layers of misdirection is an incredibly important ability, one that a good education will teach. In a world where scientific debate in matters of public policy is of utmost importance, being able to understand the science being debated is a necessary skill for the voting populace. College is incredibly useful, I fail to understand why detractors insist that it has no value. I will readily agree that corruption is rife and the cost is increasing way to rapidly, while quality may very well be on the decline as universities attempt to push more and more students through, but an educated populace is by no means a bad thing.

u801e 9y ago
> Really? Learning how the history of your country has no value? Learning how to write properly, how to construct persuasive arguments is of no use? Learning how to break an argument down into smaller parts and analyze it for soundness has no practical application? Shouldn't these things be covered in high school? Perhaps having a 13th or 14th year of primary education would allow for these concepts to be covered in sufficient depth. Then universities could concentrate on specialized concepts pertaining to the student's major.
- com2kid 9y ago
  > Shouldn't these things be covered in high school? A number of factors. High Schools are very subject to political whims of the local area. Teachers are often not tenured (especially in smaller districts), and school board members are frequently elected officials. There are schools that still teach that America is literally blessed by God to rule over the earth. Those schools aren't going to teach about the Kent State Riots, or Pinkertons. They sure as heck aren't going to have a class on dissecting political speeches (from all across the spectrum) for logical soundness. (One of the best college classes I ever took!) These are the same schools that avoid teaching literally anything about sex (other than don't have it), and skimp out on other large portions of biology. > Perhaps having a 13th or 14th year of primary education would allow for these concepts to be covered in sufficient depth. The problem with mandatory education is that since everyone has to go through it, there is an expectation that everyone passes, which means courses get watered down until everyone does pass. Tests are put in place to prevent this, and then school becomes prep work for those tests, as metrics take over the entire system. Community Colleges are, IMHO, a good stepping stone.

skookumchuck 9y ago

> nothing about "education" is about actual education Right, because everyone knows you can design a working rocket engine using high school knowledge, and that the guy who mows your lawn is a good source of advice on your medical problems.

kurtisc 9y ago

This shouldn't be a surprise to governments, it won a Nobel prize in 2001.

ouid 9y ago
Could you explain how you think this applies? In his paper, Akerlof describes college as a mitigating factor of the information asymmetry of the labor market. Higher productivity workers gain education at less personal cost than lower productivity workers, and it thus gains value as a signal. If education doesn't, ultimately, correlate with productivity, then the argument is that the market will simply ignore it.

robotresearcher 9y ago

> nothing about "education" is about actual education. I am completely baffled by this comment. University education changed my life and mind completely. Not from social access or gatekeeping - I just spent years learning amazing things. Knowing some things has been powerfully useful for me. Also, I just like it. It was totally the best. If you like learning, higher education is like getting your retirement in at the beginning of your career. I understand it's not for everyone. But it was incredible for me and people like me. I grew up on welfare by the way, so it's not a wealth club thing. I totally support investing in another route for training for people who wouldn't get that much from years of books, lectures and essays. Apprenticeships and technical vocational school worked for thousands of years alongside academic degrees.

0xffff2 9y ago
I couldn't disagree more. I'm in my final quarter of my undergraduate degree, and I consistently stayed so far ahead of the curriculum in personal projects and internships that I learned almost nothing at all in University. For me, it was purely about proving I knew things to professors using an arcane and ever changing set of metrics. I stuck with it because I want to work for a particular organization, and working in that organization in the position I want absolutely requires a degree. If there was any other path to getting a degree besides sitting through years of classes, I'm confident that I would be every bit as good a person and developer if I had taken that route over going to a University.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  We'll that sucks. I'm sorry it wasn't good for you. > I consistently stayed so far ahead of the curriculum in personal projects and internships Wait a second! So you learned a lot while at college? You wouldn't have had those internships if you had a regular job. And maybe not the time to do personal projects. The college system set up that experience and time for you. College is about the opportunity to learn, not them doing anything to you. Maybe there's something to it after all.
  - 9y ago